XC: Excluding JV Runners from Competing at the Conference Meet

[Mr. Slippery]

I know we're several weeks beyond XC season, but I thought this situation should be mentioned to the wider audience we have on this site:

The principals, ADs, and commissioner of the Inter-Valley Conference (small school league whose geographic center is the Dover-New Philadelphia area) have, for the 3rd time decided, not to act on a proposal to allow junior varsity athletes to compete in intraconference contests. As far as I know, this makes the IVC the only conference in Ohio to not allow any runners beyond the top 7 on a team to compete at the conference XC meet. This may be the only high school conference in the United States to have such a policy. Furthermore, cross country is the only high school sport in the IVC in which JV athletes are disallowed intraconference participation. The IVC has allowed all runners to participate every year until 2022 (except for COVID in 2020), and there were no logistical issues created by the additional athletes, i.e. overcrowding the course or having any stragglers delaying the start of the next race. In every other conference in Ohio (HS and collegiate), runners beyond the top 7 may either compete in the same race as “the top 7” during the championship race, or they compete in a separate JV/Open race that is contested either before or after the varsity race. The IVC does neither.

Ironically, this very same conference allows unlimited entries for the middle school championship, and the middle school championship is held both on the same day and on the same course as the high school varsity race. Again, in every other sport that the IVC offers for intraconference competition, there is either junior varsity competition offered, or it is up to respective schools/coaches to choose to allow junior varsity kids to participate during IVC contests.

After this year’s meet, there was a meeting of coaches during which eleven of the fourteen school coaches voted to allow all IVC cross country athletes to compete. Two of the schools were not represented at the meeting. Despite the overwhelming support to include junior varsity competitors in future conference championship meets, the conference administrators have chosen to ignore the wishes of their coaches and their student-athletes.

Isn’t 1 of the primary purposes of a league to offer intraconference competition for all of its student-athletes? Is “inclusion” and “participation” important to the IVC administrators? If not, why is cross country singled out, or is this only the beginning? Will other conferences follow?

What is gained by the IVC excluding JV athletes from competing at the conference meet?

Any thoughts?

 

[CC Track Fan]

I can't think of any valid reason to not let the JV kids run. Sad that these people that clearly know very little about CC are taking this away from the kids.

 

[Runningfast]

This undermines the fundamental beauty of our sport - every kid, no matter how fast or slow, has the chance to compete and improve. No reason a conference meet can't host a JV/open race. It adds two races and maybe 90 minutes to the day.

 

[Newton's Third]

If 11 of 14 coaches voted to have inclusion and two were absent, what rationale did the coach voting against give as his/her reasoning?

I may have missed something, but what keeps the host school from having a "Mr. Slippery Invitational" directly before or after the conference meet? And the coach voting against participation does not have to enter a team.

 

[lane4]

The principals, ADs, and commissioner of the Inter-Valley Conference (small school league whose geographic center is the Dover-New Philadelphia area) have, for the 3rd time decided, not to act on a proposal to allow junior varsity athletes to compete in intraconference contests.

What is the reason that an Open(ie JV) race is not held?

 

[EuclidandViren]

As far as I know, this makes the IVC the only conference in Ohio to not allow any runners beyond the top 7 on a team to compete at the conference XC meet. This may be the only high school conference in the United States to have such a policy. Furthermore, cross country is the only high school sport in the IVC in which JV athletes are disallowed intraconference participation.

Although it's nice to have the JV kids race and end their season with everyone else, the precedent from other sports does not hold up. It is easy to have the JV cross country championship in cross country compared to other sports because it is only an extra hour. But the cost of the conference can be astronomical if the timing company charges per athlete and if the conference does not offset the cost of the meet by charging for parking or admittance. It's all about $.

Other individual sports- question- Does the IVC have a JV track championship, JV wrestling championship, JV swimming championship, JV golf championship, or JV tennis championship?

No other sport in any conference is a JV game guaranteed. The JV game is a nice garnishment in other sports, but it is not guaranteed or necessary. There are teams in my school's sport that do not have a JV team for many sports. And there are schools with barely enough athletes to have a varsity team some years in cross country. And my school is in arguably the conference with the largest schools in the state of Ohio.

The easy solution is for the coaches to hold a meet on Saturday after the meet or even Friday or Thursday before the meet and call it the JV IVC championships on the same course. Charge for parking and make money and shove it down the AD's throats.

 

[psycho_dad]

My guess is that if they just ran all the kids in one big race, not a single AD or Principle would know the difference. Just exclude anyone outside of the top 7 from the results. Is their championship race the only intraconference contest of the season, or are there dual meets or a super dual?

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that maybe 8 of the 14 schools in the conference even have 5 kids or more to score. Those schools are very small.

 

[mathking]

No other sport in any conference is a JV game guaranteed. The JV game is a nice garnishment in other sports, but it is not guaranteed or necessary. There are teams in my school's sport that do not have a JV team for many sports. And there are schools with barely enough athletes to have a varsity team some years in cross country. And my school is in arguably the conference with the largest schools in the state of Ohio.

Other sports don't guarantee JV contests, but how often is it the case that both basketball, football, soccer, ... teams have JV squads but no JV game is played? (And imagine the parental wrath if that did happen.) If your conference doesn't have dual meets, which most do not, then the conference meet is actually the only opportunity for JV kids to compete in intra-conference competition. This question has come up once or twice in my time coaching in the OCC (where the teams tend to be quite large) and that has been a key point coaches have made in rebuttal to the argument against JV participation in the conference meet.

 

[psycho_dad]

Other sports don't guarantee JV contests, but how often is it the case that both basketball, football, soccer, ... teams have JV squads but no JV game is played? (And imagine the parental wrath if that did happen.) If your conference doesn't have dual meets, which most do not, then the conference meet is actually the only opportunity for JV kids to compete in intra-conference competition. This question has come up once or twice in my time coaching in the OCC (where the teams tend to be quite large) and that has been a key point coaches have made in rebuttal to the argument against JV participation in the conference meet.

Varsity squads are not limited to those on the field or court. You don't just play with 5 basketball players or 11 soccer players. Not limited to 9 baseball players. Maybe there is a reasonable limit, but 7 isn't it.

Looking at the boys results from last season. 13 teams had at least 1 kid, but only 8 had at least 5. Only 2 had 7

The girls had 12 teams with at leas 1 runner and 8 with at least 5. Only 4 with 7


Not very difficult to have had 2 teams in the boys race and 4 in the girls running more than 7.

With 14 teams x 7 runners, there would have to be spots for at least 98 runners. There were 65 boys and 63 girls that ran.(finished) Over 30 unused spots in each race at a minimum.

 

[CC Track Fan]

Other individual sports- question- Does the IVC have a JV track championship, JV wrestling championship, JV swimming championship, JV golf championship, or JV tennis championship?

The bigger school conferences I am aware of have a JV track meet, just looked on baum's page and there are a number of JV conference wrestling championships listed, swim conferences I am familiar with allow unlimited entries in 50 and 100 so all can swim but only top 4 from school can score, no idea on golf or tennis.

Most team sports play a JV game before V game other than football that plays theirs on the following Saturday morning.

 

[psycho_dad]

Other individual sports- question- Does the IVC have a JV track championship, JV wrestling championship, JV swimming championship, JV golf championship, or JV tennis championship?

There doesn't have to be a JV Championship. You can run more than 7 runners in a CC race on a team and you still only score the top 5 with the 6 and 7th as displacers and tie breaker. It does not change scoring. The nature of the sport allows it to be unbalanced. I don't have to run 7. I just have to run 5. In track, You can choose to enter 9 kids and fill all the events or 34 different kids. You can also choose to enter just 1 and still win.

What other sports do in the conference should have noting to do with what CC does. The football team can use 50 + kids. Who cares? If the AD's and Principals need to get involved, it should be to mandate that more kids be allowed to run and not less.

 

[Mr. Slippery]

FWIW, I am not in the coaching business anymore, and my school is not a member of the IVC.

However, we accommodated the JV runners from 1 of the affected schools at our meet that is held that same weekend (my school is independent and hosts a home meet that day).

 

[ENA2]

The IVC is made up of mostly D3 schools with some D2 schools (for CC). In some sports like, basketball, volleyball the conference has scheduled JV competitions for conference schools that can field JV teams and teams may allow all athletes to compete in varsity contests. Other sports, track and golf for example, they schedule IVC tri-meets (or quads) where schools/coaches may choose to compete all athletes on their rosters so everyone has a chance to compete with other athletes in the conference. Baseball, softball and all others sports may play all athletes in intra-conference contest. For cross county, the IVC FORBIDS schools from lining up more than 7 at the starting line. The officials are ask to only allow 7 or less to check in. Note: in 2022 and 23, an official said that they never heard of such a thing at a league meet and said that 15-20 more kids in a race would not hurt a thing. Furthermore, coaches are told that they can not allow the JV kids to run over the course after the varsity races are over so coaches could time them. In 2023, there were approximately 29 athletes (16 boys and 13 girls) in the State of Ohio were were not permitted to compete in their conference. And all of them were members of the Inter-Valley Conference.

 

[Altor]

I'm not arguing for or against. I will say that this is NOT the only conference in Ohio that runs their conference meet in this manner.

 

[ENA2]

Could you please list any other conference that does not allow JV athletes an opportunity to compete in conference competition in some capacity? And what would the reason be for that? I’m looking at results on milesplit and have not found any others yet. When I find another, I will post it…. I hope reducing opportunities for kids is not a trend for any sport.

 

[psycho_dad]

The IVC is made up of mostly D3 schools with some D2 schools (for CC). In some sports like, basketball, volleyball the conference has scheduled JV competitions for conference schools that can field JV teams and teams may allow all athletes to compete in varsity contests. Other sports, track and golf for example, they schedule IVC tri-meets (or quads) where schools/coaches may choose to compete all athletes on their rosters so everyone has a chance to compete with other athletes in the conference. Baseball, softball and all others sports may play all athletes in intra-conference contest. For cross county, the IVC FORBIDS schools from lining up more than 7 at the starting line. The officials are ask to only allow 7 or less to check in. Note: in 2022 and 23, an official said that they never heard of such a thing at a league meet and said that 15-20 more kids in a race would not hurt a thing. Furthermore, coaches are told that they can not allow the JV kids to run over the course after the varsity races are over so coaches could time them. In 2023, there were approximately 29 athletes (16 boys and 13 girls) in the State of Ohio were were not permitted to compete in their conference. And all of them were members of the Inter-Valley Conference.

No Dual meets or Super Dual then. 15-20 kids wouldn't hurt a thing... 30-40 kids wouldn't hurt a thing. If all schools lined up 7, there would be 98 kids on the line. The races were 30 less than that.

I could understand limits for a huge conference of D1 schools that have over 50 kids per roster per gender. Or, doing a wave start like in 2020 (Not all that bad an idea by the way for some invites.) But the IVC looks to have some of the smallest schools in the state for a conference. The meet didn't even average 5 runners per school.

The strangest thing is that you would think AD's are AD's because they understand and enjoy athletics and kids. You would also think Principles also see the benefits of having kids participate. I would like to know any logic given for such a decision. Especially when the same people have made it easy for other sports in the conference to allow all the kids to participate.

 

[yj_runfan]

The strangest thing is that you would think AD's are AD's because they understand and enjoy athletics and kids. You would also think Principles also see the benefits of having kids participate. I would like to know any logic given for such a decision. Especially when the same people have made it easy for other sports in the conference to allow all the kids to participate.

Not necessarily. I’ve seen ADs that only cared about football, basketball and baseball.

 

[ENA2]

I have looked at every conference result of the past 2 years and indeed have found one other conference that may limit participation in cross country to only 7 athletes for league participation. I say “may” because I don’t know if any team from the Green Meadows Conference has any HS teams with more than 7 able to participate at the conference meet, but according to milesplit a couple schools did have 8 on their rosters. I looked at all 59 conferences on milesplit and baumspage in Ohio (a couple included W.Va or Pennsylvania schools). Of those 59 conferences 16 offered JV/open races before or after the Varsity races Note: a couple allowed 9 runners from a school to run varsity and the rest were in the open and there were mostly conferences with bigger (D1) schools. A couple had both the boys and girls open runners race together. Of 41 conferences allowed all the high school boys or high school girls to race together, there was no substantial added time or safety issue. BTW - the IVC conducts a nice meet (host has been Sandy Valley the past 2 years) and charges for parking/admission so if 20 kids can’t participate, that is over $200 in admissions someone is missing out on and that does not include t/shirts or concessions.

 

[psycho_dad]

I have looked at every conference result of the past 2 years and indeed have found one other conference that may limit participation in cross country to only 7 athletes for league participation. I say “may” because I don’t know if any team from the Green Meadows Conference has any HS teams with more than 7 able to participate at the conference meet, but according to milesplit a couple schools did have 8 on their rosters. I looked at all 59 conferences on milesplit and baumspage in Ohio (a couple included W.Va or Pennsylvania schools). Of those 59 conferences 16 offered JV/open races before or after the Varsity races Note: a couple allowed 9 runners from a school to run varsity and the rest were in the open and there were mostly conferences with bigger (D1) schools. A couple had both the boys and girls open runners race together. Of 41 conferences allowed all the high school boys or high school girls to race together, there was no substantial added time or safety issue. BTW - the IVC conducts a nice meet (host has been Sandy Valley the past 2 years) and charges for parking/admission so if 20 kids can’t participate, that is over $200 in admissions someone is missing out on and that does not include t/shirts or concessions.

Get back to us when you have researched this a little more in depth. I researched the METRO ATHLETIC CONFERENCE for you. One team ran 25 boys and 14 girls.

Have a Merry Christmas. Thanks Mr. Slippery for getting ENA all riled up!!!

 

[ENA2]

Get back to us when you have researched this a little more in depth. I researched the METRO ATHLETIC CONFERENCE for you. One team ran 25 boys and 14 girls.

Have a Merry Christmas. Thanks Mr. Slippery for getting ENA all riled up!!!

Psycho is right.... I am riled up. I get that way when I see injustices for Student/Athletes or particular groups, or ...especially when there is no reasonable explanation, when inclusion, participation and fairness are stressed in every other sport within a group. It appears that the Green Meadows Conference and the Inter-Valley Conference has either regular scheduled JV intraconference schedules or allows programs/coaches discretion in allowing JV athletes to participate in regular scheduled conference contest except for cross country. It is "forbidden" in cross country in these conferences. Inclusion and participation are included in the OHSAA mission as well as the National Federation of High School ideals. I would think the any athletic conference would include these values as well. If there are other conferences like this,( if Altor knows of any, i hope he lets us know) I will try to encourage them to include to not discriminate against one sport OR to try to increase opportunities for participants instead of reducing opportunities.

 

[psycho_dad]

Psycho is right.... I am riled up. I get that way when I see injustices for Student/Athletes or particular groups, or ...especially when there is no reasonable explanation, when inclusion, participation and fairness are stressed in every other sport within a group. It appears that the Green Meadows Conference and the Inter-Valley Conference has either regular scheduled JV intraconference schedules or allows programs/coaches discretion in allowing JV athletes to participate in regular scheduled conference contest except for cross country. It is "forbidden" in cross country in these conferences. Inclusion and participation are included in the OHSAA mission as well as the National Federation of High School ideals. I would think the any athletic conference would include these values as well. If there are other conferences like this,( if Altor knows of any, i hope he lets us know) I will try to encourage them to include to not discriminate against one sport OR to try to increase opportunities for participants instead of reducing opportunities.

Preaching to the choir. It makes no sense. It's hard to believe that one person on a committee might vote against allowing JV participation, but to have it be the majority is very upsetting. There is absolutely nothing gained by not allowing the kids to run. Can probably make up some BS reasons, but no good reasons. This was a topic of conversation in my home over the holidays.

There really is no reasonable explanation. Let us know if there is anything we can do. Letter. Signature on a petition.

 

[EuclidandViren]

Psycho is right.... I am riled up. I get that way when I see injustices for Student/Athletes or particular groups, or ...especially when there is no reasonable explanation, when inclusion, participation and fairness are stressed in every other sport within a group. It appears that the Green Meadows Conference and the Inter-Valley Conference has either regular scheduled JV intraconference schedules or allows programs/coaches discretion in allowing JV athletes to participate in regular scheduled conference contest except for cross country. It is "forbidden" in cross country in these conferences. Inclusion and participation are included in the OHSAA mission as well as the National Federation of High School ideals. I would think the any athletic conference would include these values as well. If there are other conferences like this,( if Altor knows of any, i hope he lets us know) I will try to encourage them to include to not discriminate against one sport OR to try to increase opportunities for participants instead of reducing opportunities.

Although I agree with everyone saying that they need and should have a JV competition. I would argue that is not needed or guaranteed. Although my high school's top ten biggest in the state may have varsity basketball, football, baseball, etc matches scheduled by the conference it does not guarantee that a JV match will occur. JV games get canceled all the time, especially in football because some smaller schools cannot field a team. For instance, a Friday night football game is delayed until Saturday due to lightning. Then the JV game is always canceled Saturday morning.

I will repeat my question. Because fair and equal are two different words. Fairness does not mean it will be equal. Equality means treating everyone the same.

Does the IVC have a JV track championship, JV wrestling championship, JV swimming championship, JV golf championship, or JV tennis championship? Does this conference schedule JV games? What is in the bylaws of the conference? I would assume JV is not even mentioned.

 

[CC Track Fan]

Coaches in those conferences should work together and push back against the people making those decisions.

 

[psycho_dad]

Although I agree with everyone saying that they need and should have a JV competition. I would argue that is not needed or guaranteed. Although my high school's top ten biggest in the state may have varsity basketball, football, baseball, etc matches scheduled by the conference it does not guarantee that a JV match will occur. JV games get canceled all the time, especially in football because some smaller schools cannot field a team. For instance, a Friday night football game is delayed until Saturday due to lightning. Then the JV game is always canceled Saturday morning.

I will repeat my question. Because fair and equal are two different words. Fairness does not mean it will be equal. Equality means treating everyone the same.

Does the IVC have a JV track championship, JV wrestling championship, JV swimming championship, JV golf championship, or JV tennis championship? Does this conference schedule JV games? What is in the bylaws of the conference? I would assume JV is not even mentioned.

What does JV Championships have to do with it? They have a single championship race. That is it for the season. They have the ability to allow every kid in the league to run. Why would they not? ENA already stated that the IVC schedules JV contests for other sports and schedules Tri meets and even quads for Track and golf and allows all kids to participate. The issue is that in all other sports, all the kids are allowed to participate. Only CC Forbids JV kids from participating.

 

[yj_runfan]

What does JV Championships have to do with it? They have a single championship race. That is it for the season. They have the ability to allow every kid in the league to run. Why would they not? ENA already stated that the IVC schedules JV contests for other sports and schedules Tri meets and even quads for Track and golf and allows all kids to participate. The issue is that in all other sports, all the kids are allowed to participate. Only CC Forbids JV kids from participating.

His point was it’s only the conference championship that JV is not included in. No other sport has a championship for JV. Maybe they are actually keeping things fair by not giving CC something that isn’t available to JV athletes in any other sport? Try to think about this dispassionately.

 

[psycho_dad]

His point was it’s only the conference championship that JV is not included in. No other sport has a championship for JV. Maybe they are actually keeping things fair by not giving CC something that isn’t available to JV athletes in any other sport? Try to think about this dispassionately.

No, The league championship is the only contest there is, so there is zero participation in the conference at all for a JV CC runner. The league allows JV contests in other sports and JV athletes are allowed to participate in the championships if the coaches want them to. The conference does not allow JV participation only in Cross Country. Actually forbidden as ENA puts it. They single out CC as the only sport in the conference that has nothing for JV. To think about it dispassionately is to ignore the CC kids and reinforce that CC should have less opportunity in the conference. For no good reason. Each sport is different and the way CC is set up, there is no reason that everyone should not be allowed to line up and race at the conference meet. It's just the sensible thing to do, and the right thing to do for kids.

Other sports maybe very limited in their participation by the nature of the sport. Tennis, swimming etc. I don't expect the conference to limit participation in football because of Tennis. I also would not object to the conference doing something that increases the number of matches for tennis players.

 

[yj_runfan]

No, The league championship is the only contest there is, so there is zero participation in the conference at all for a JV CC runner. The league allows JV contests in other sports and JV athletes are allowed to participate in the championships if the coaches want them to. The conference does not allow JV participation only in Cross Country. Actually forbidden as ENA puts it. They single out CC as the only sport in the conference that has nothing for JV. To think about it dispassionately is to ignore the CC kids and reinforce that CC should have less opportunity in the conference. For no good reason. Each sport is different and the way CC is set up, there is no reason that everyone should not be allowed to line up and race at the conference meet. It's just the sensible thing to do, and the right thing to do for kids.

Other sports maybe very limited in their participation by the nature of the sport. Tennis, swimming etc. I don't expect the conference to limit participation in football because of Tennis. I also would not object to the conference doing something that increases the number of matches for tennis players.

But it is wrong to say the CC JV kids get less opportunity to participate than JV kids in any other sport. Would do you say to JV athletes in other sports that would question why CC is the only sport to have a JV championship? I don’t understand the logic here at all.

 

[psycho_dad]

But it is wrong to say the CC JV kids get less opportunity to participate than JV kids in any other sport. Would do you say to JV athletes in other sports that would question why CC is the only sport to have a JV championship? I don’t understand the logic here at all.

It's not wrong to say that. In the Conference JV kids get zero opportunity. Every other sport in the conference has JV participation. There is literally one conference contest in CC and zero JV athletes are allowed to run. No one is advocating for a JV championship for CC. They are asking that the kids be allowed to run in the conference meet and not score if they are not in the top 7, or have an open race that does not count towards any championship. Like every other conference in the state.

 

[ENA2]

Within the Intervalley Conference and the Green Meadows Conference (scheduled intra-conference competition) conference organizers ...ie. the principals and athletic directors, schedule and/or promote competition between conference schools at every level. This includes 7th grade, 8th grade, 9th grade, junior varsity and varsity. Some schools do not have the numbers for football or basketball to have JV teams, so they may not participate in the JV contest in those sports, HOWEVER, those that do have the numbers, may play JV athletes in the varsity contest if the opposing school does not have a JV contest. The same holds true for freshman contests. There is no "JV championship" in those sports, but the conference does not forbid those althletes from participation in intra-conference play. In other "individual sports" like track, golf, wrestling etc., JV athletes are allowed to compete in the regular scheduled intra-conference contest. In golf, if the host school allows it (I believe they all do) those beyond the top 5 get to compete at they conference Tri-match or Tri-Meets. They will keep score and may use their scores for season averages or PR's or even lettering requirements. This is the first year for IVC bowling and each dual IVC match also has a JV match for those schools that have enough and the the other school does not have enough for a JV team, the team that does have a JV team, are allowed to bowl and keep score. Only in cross country are coaches or programs forbidden to compete in intraconference competition. Also, at the conference meets in these conference, a school may enter as many Middle school athletes as they want as participation is encouraged and inclusion is important at this level. JV runners will not cost any more and will not take any additional time AND since admission is charged for spectators, T-shirts are sold, and concessions are consumed, these conferences are missing out on funds.
NOTE: This year, two boys schools, including Tusky Valley who won, had 7 guys registered but one got injured and one got sick during the warm-up, but the 8th runner was not prepared because they were told they could not run, so East Canton and Tusky Valley only started (and finished) 6 runners, but did have more on their roster.

 

[ENA2]

But it is wrong to say the CC JV kids get less opportunity to participate than JV kids in any other sport. Would do you say to JV athletes in other sports that would question why CC is the only sport to have a JV championship? I don’t understand the logic here at all.

This is not a JV championship that we are talking about. The IVC administrators allows every sport in the conference the chance for “JV” kids (kids beyond the usual varsity/starters) to compete in inter conference contests except in cross country where it is forbidden. Obviously football/basketball etc. play more than their starters on Fridays in conference games, but the conference also has JV games scheduled. Even in “minor sports” like wrestling, golf and bowling, All JV athletes may compete in inter-conference contests if the facility can accommodate them. So no, no other sport or anyone could on say that cross country is the only sport to have a that chance….. the timers said it would be no additional cost, would take no additional time as the few additional runners would be in the high school races, and the course that the IVC races on has an invitational meet with double the numbers that could be in the conference races.