What do you think of Cleveland?

 
Cleveland and Columbus are essentially the reverse of one another. Cleveland has better arts, better restaurants, more interesting housing stock, more interesting topography. The city, in some ways, is rebounding with lots of 20 somethings and even retirees moving into Downtown and Ohio City, Tremont and Gordon Square.

However, the economy continues to be shaky. Those who think all of these other trends (including Lebron coming back-hilarious) will fuel a resurgence, are kidding themselves. The economy is weak. Columbus, on the other hand, has a vibrant economy with less to offer in most other categories. Since I believe in "it's the economy, stupid", Columbus' future is brighter.
 
CatAlum said:
Cleveland and Columbus are essentially the reverse of one another. Cleveland has better arts, better restaurants, more interesting housing stock, more interesting topography. The city, in some ways, is rebounding with lots of 20 somethings and even retirees moving into Downtown and Ohio City, Tremont and Gordon Square.

However, the economy continues to be shaky. Those who think all of these other trends (including Lebron coming back-hilarious) will fuel a resurgence, are kidding themselves. The economy is weak. Columbus, on the other hand, has a vibrant economy with less to offer in most other categories. Since I believe in "it's the economy, stupid", Columbus' future is brighter.
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The greatest influx of money in to Cleveland since the Rustbelt era began came when the Republican Voinovich was in power. Not a coincidence.

Columbus has positioned itself politically to be a recipient of tax dollars, as the capitol and home of tOSU. Kasich's way of balancing a budget, taking in ~15% less but returning ~75% less to the donor communities (except, of course, Columbus), pretty much assures the dynamic that you are forecasting.
 
cabezadecaballo said:
The greatest influx of money in to Cleveland since the Rustbelt era began came when the Republican Voinovich was in power. Not a coincidence.

Columbus has positioned itself politically to be a recipient of tax dollars, as the capitol and home of tOSU. Kasich's way of balancing a budget, taking in ~15% less but returning ~75% less to the donor communities (except, of course, Columbus), pretty much assures the dynamic that you are forecasting.
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I think Voinovich was the best of the mayors in my adult lifetime, but, let's not kid one another. The direction of the Cleveland economy has been consistently heading in the same direction since about 1960. Most of what afflicts Cleveland is beyond its control...a manufacturing-based local economy in a country that no longer employs nearly as many people in that sector...for a variety of reasons.

And, when I say it's beyond our control...I always offer the same mental exercise...name a city in the industrial midwest, with an industrial economy (i.e., not Indy or Columbus, which don't have industrial economies), that has done well over the last 30-40 years. Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Youngstown, Akron, Canton, Toledo, Dayton, Detroit, Elyria, Lorain...all heading in the same direction.
 
CatAlum said:
I think Voinovich was the best of the mayors in my adult lifetime, but, let's not kid one another. The direction of the Cleveland economy has been consistently heading in the same direction since about 1960. Most of what afflicts Cleveland is beyond its control...a manufacturing-based local economy in a country that no longer employs nearly as many people in that sector...for a variety of reasons.

And, when I say it's beyond our control...I always offer the same mental exercise...name a city in the industrial midwest, with an industrial economy (i.e., not Indy or Columbus, which don't have industrial economies), that has done well over the last 30-40 years. Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Youngstown, Akron, Canton, Toledo, Dayton, Detroit, Elyria, Lorain...all heading in the same direction.
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Reed vs. Rhodes and Frank J. Battisti crippled Cleveland. It would have weathered the rustbelt woes far better otherwise.

Look at Pittsburgh. More of the people that didn't have a "gimme" mentality stayed behind and kept voting there. One could say that Detroit imploded due to it's voters as much as the singular automotive influence.

Sans busing, Cleveland should have fared far better than the smaller cities I've highlighted in your post. I don't think that they compare. Cleveland's physical assets and potential are the only reason gentrification has worked. Those things don't really exist in the other cities you note. Not truly analogous, imo.
 
Actually, I like Cleveland. As much as I rag on NEO (which does suck) downtown Cleveland is a pretty cool place. I remember there being a little side cobble stone street near the Indians stadium that had a few bars, was blocked from cars and you could walk around with alcohol. Or, no one really cared if you did on that street.
 
Despite signs of resurgence and gentrification in areas such as downtown and Ohio City I think there is still a very strong perception by outsiders (myself included) that in our part of the country, only Detroit is more in the toilet, so to speak. The local economy is still weak and will never be what it once was as long as our country continues to minimize manufacturing.
 
nwwarrior09 said:
Despite signs of resurgence and gentrification in areas such as downtown and Ohio City I think there is still a very strong perception by outsiders (myself included) that in our part of the country, only Detroit is more in the toilet, so to speak. The local economy is still weak and will never be what it once was as long as our country continues to minimize manufacturing.
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Like most on the outside, I think that your perception lags behind reality.

The superior hospitals have kept things propped up, as has the kind of backdoor regionalism that can come from a Port Authority, a massive Water Department on a giant lake, or a Regional Sewer District. If I'm not mistaken, Cuyahoga County probably still has the greatest aggregate wealth in the state. Most of it just lives outside the city limits, so they have to be creative in taking it back. Law and accounting firms downtown are thriving, but the loss of regional HQ's due to consolidations has hurt almost as much as lost industry. The basic concept of taxing those that work in the city to benefit those that stayed behind in the neighborhoods has lead to a bad political dynamic. Frank Jackson has some strong points, but "Vision" isn't one of them. Hopefully gentrification will lead to the election of better voices in Cleveland City Council, and return more than a caretaker mentality to a few public offices.
 
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nwwarrior09 said:
Despite signs of resurgence and gentrification in areas such as downtown and Ohio City I think there is still a very strong perception by outsiders (myself included) that in our part of the country, only Detroit is more in the toilet, so to speak. The local economy is still weak and will never be what it once was as long as our country continues to minimize manufacturing.
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I wouldn't agree with your toilet scale. Buffalo? Youngstown? Toledo? Canton? Dayton? Flint?
 
cabezadecaballo said:
Reed vs. Rhodes and Frank J. Battisti crippled Cleveland. It would have weathered the rustbelt woes far better otherwise.

Look at Pittsburgh. More of the people that didn't have a "gimme" mentality stayed behind and kept voting there. One could say that Detroit imploded due to it's voters as much as the singular automotive influence.

Sans busing, Cleveland should have fared far better than the smaller cities I've highlighted in your post. I don't think that they compare. Cleveland's physical assets and potential are the only reason gentrification has worked. Those things don't really exist in the other cities you note. Not truly analogous, imo.
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As much as I (like everyone else) despised busing, I think, in the long term, it just hurried along the inevitable departure of most of the middle class. Many are coming back as our culture sees the limits of suburbia (mind-numbingly boring).

You can pick and choose between some in the rust belt who've done relatively better or relatively worse, but, overall, the larger trends dragged all industrial cities down in this part of the country.

As for Frank Jackson...he has only one positive trait...he recognizes his own limitations...and they are vast. It's the ultimate left-handed compliment, but he deserves a modicum of credit for handing off many tasks to competent people. He has virtually no vision. Read up on his opinions on attracting immigrants to Cleveland if you really want to get worried about the future.
 
CatAlum said:
I wouldn't agree with your toilet scale. Buffalo? Youngstown? Toledo? Canton? Dayton? Flint?
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To clarify I mean as far as the "bigger" midwest/great lakes cities go. See the "Hastily Made Cleveland Tourism Videos" and the endless trail of jokes about Cleveland professional sports and the city. The negative regional/national perception is most definitely there.

Out of all of those smaller cities, I think pretty much all of them are equally in as bad of a position at best, and worse off in most cases with little to no chance of things getting better. Youngstown and Flint I'd say are much, much worse off. With the exception of maybe Buffalo (I don't know much about the city, hence the maybe) none of those cities have anywhere near the metro population base, resources, or raw potential that Cleveland has to stage any significant level of redevelopment or gentrification.
 
nwwarrior09 said:
To clarify I mean as far as the "bigger" midwest/great lakes cities go. See the "Hastily Made Cleveland Tourism Videos" and the endless trail of jokes about Cleveland professional sports and the city.
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Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were taking a intelligent look at this issue.
 
CatAlum said:
Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were taking a intelligent look at this issue.
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I would think intelligent would include comparing Cleveland to cities like Detroit, Buffalo and Milwaukee as opposed to cities like Toledo and Akron that have 1/3 to 1/4 of the metro population and no where near the same amount of physical assets, capital or historical significance. But then again, what do I know.
 
I last saw it about 20 years ago and thought it was pretty gross. Hardly unique to Cleveland as a large metro city though.
 
Tons of nice places to visit. MLK to University circle has a great vibe and IMO compares favorably to most urban places in the world and probably nowhere else in Ohio could make that claim.
 
I went to Cleveland over the Halloween weekend and the place that we stayed was around playhouse square. When going out, there was no one out. I mean no one was out walking around or anything. Is this just a dead place in Cleveland?

Also, went to the Great Lakes brewery and that was kinda cool. The area around the Great Lakes brewery was pretty hipster though. Not into that kind of crowd. But I will say that driving into the city, you could actually see that you are about to get to a major city. Driving through Columbus look was such a bore and there was nothing that pops out at the driver. Sucked. Overall Cleveland was what you expect. Nothing too out of the ordinary, but I was only there 2 days, so there was probably plenty of things that could have improved the stay with more knowledge of the city.
 
I've never been impressed by anything in Cleveland. If it wasn't for Cedar Point I would never venture anywhere near that part of the state
 
Great food, awesome Metroparks (including the only national park in Ohio), some nice suburbs, good entertainment options, great sports teams. It's a place I am happy that I grew up in and I'm happy raising my family here.
 
Jhubbs77 said:
I've never been impressed by anything in Cleveland. If it wasn't for Cedar Point I would never venture anywhere near that part of the state
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If you get close to Cleveland while venturing to Cedar Point, you have some
serious navigational issues. You might want to try a different GPS device.

:>---
 
CatAlum said:
Cleveland and Columbus are essentially the reverse of one another. Cleveland has better arts, better restaurants, more interesting housing stock, more interesting topography. The city, in some ways, is rebounding with lots of 20 somethings and even retirees moving into Downtown and Ohio City, Tremont and Gordon Square.

However, the economy continues to be shaky. Those who think all of these other trends (including Lebron coming back-hilarious) will fuel a resurgence, are kidding themselves. The economy is weak. Columbus, on the other hand, has a vibrant economy with less to offer in most other categories. Since I believe in "it's the economy, stupid", Columbus' future is brighter.
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Pretty good post except being dead wrong on the restaurants.
 
Earlier post called Ohio City "hipster" and I guess that;s true and would go equally to Tremont and other reclaimed Cleveland neighborhoods where people are putting their restaurants but none of those neighborhoods that I can tell were ever upper class so I think it's all good.

Days are gone when you could get a good salami or corned beef (Slyman's) or three in every neighborhood so it's nice to see some neighborhoods come back.

I've never been to Sokolowski's. Everytime I've tried, I either get lost and end up somewhere else or it's closed. Recommended?
 
Yeah, the restaurant thing isn't even a discussion.

Sokolowski's is a good option if you are into that kind of food. My dad freaking loves that place. If you want good corned beef, or any deli in general, try Mister Brisket in Cleveland Heights. It's outrageously good, best in the city.
 
Jhubbs77 said:
I've never been impressed by anything in Cleveland. If it wasn't for Cedar Point I would never venture anywhere near that part of the state
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If you've not been impressed by the MLK-University Circle area you've not been or are making a conscious effort not to be impressed, JMHO. That area is world class by almost any definition.

People come from all around the world to go to the hospitals and schools there. The museums and arts are world class. The housing architecture up in the heights area as good as any in the state. MLK doesn't have the diversity of activities found in a Central Park but it's easily as beautiful. And probably the best urban view in the state is found at top the Cleveland Clinic. Not a lot of places have that combo of attraction.
 
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