US Soccer - What Needs to Change

[EastYoungstown]

Funny I just had this conversation at lunch today with a buddy. You are exactly right. D1 Colleges only get 9.5 Scholarships for Men's Soccer and those are typically used up by the foreign students leaving the US students out of the mix. Problem is the Colleges are not involved with USSF and probably could care less about feeding the pipeline for the USMNT.

The USSF should be an umbrella over everything.

Instead HS and college make up their own rules just to be different.

That doesn't happen anywhere else but here.

I still can't believe that neither Gulati nor Arena has either quit or been fired yet.

Arena should have resigned on the spot.

 

[belied dat]

Are you serious?

It can be year round for 5 year olds.

Every indoor place runs sessions from at least November 1 til the end of April. Rec and travel seasons bridge that gap.

You can probably find a soccer tourney in Ohio somewhere almost every weekend of the year now.

We are not going to compare the development of a 5 year old in a 1-day training/"game" session in an indoor setting for 6 months as a true "year round" for them.

What's the HS season? What's the college season? It runs from late-August (for games) to early-November (unless postseason happens). That leaves September, October, and the weeks that end/begin August/November. So, roughly 2.5 months for 14-22 year olds. That's 8 years of basically having regular training and games for only 2.5 months a year OR 20 out of 96 months (20.8%).

For many areas, they still only do rec soccer in the fall (or spring) within a month of training and games. Club does help offset the calendar a bit, if one can afford it and can access it.

Then, let's incorporate how many are pushed to not "specialize." So, they are then playing less in the "off-season." Whereas, internationally kids play 8-10 months a year AND do more on their own. Every study shows this.

 

[belied dat]

OH Yea quit paying $2,000 for Johnny to play Soccer from U7- U13 and getting burned out by coaches so they quit the sport by the time they are 14 and HS age.

Can't wait for the Paid coaches to jump in on this one. PS I have coached and trained for Free for the last 10 years. Even when the club said I had to be paid I gave the money back to the parents or Kids! My teams always paid 1/3 of the going Club Fees won most of the time and almost all of my kids still love the game! It drives those trainer and paid coaches crazy.

Thank you, first and foremost. 1) calling for not paying for club fees; 2) coaching and training for free; 3) giving money back to the parents/kids.

We want to reduce "pay to play" and the club setup, this is how we do it. Quit paying. Quit relying on coaches making full-time salaries. Parents and families take responsibility in the development of the player, don't push it off on someone else. Kids...play more, train more, and don't rely on 1-3 training sessions a week to "make you better."

 

[2731]

Thank you, first and foremost. 1) calling for not paying for club fees; 2) coaching and training for free; 3) giving money back to the parents/kids.

We want to reduce "pay to play" and the club setup, this is how we do it. Quit paying. Quit relying on coaches making full-time salaries. Parents and families take responsibility in the development of the player, don't push it off on someone else. Kids...play more, train more, and don't rely on 1-3 training sessions a week to "make you better."

I honestly agree that this WOULD be a great great thing...

Except, the US is, by far, the greatest at monetizing things that should be "free". That is a fact of our culture and provides much of the opportunity people seek in life.

I love soccer, but it is not nearly big enough nor important enough to break away from the free market and Capitalism, not even close.

We need to find solutions that maximize the benefit of the dollars spent. "Free" isn't even in pipe dream territory.

 

[12penguins]

The difference is that most other sports here in the US are survival of the fittest.

Soccer is survival of the richest.

AAU basketball teams don't carry scrubs. Neither do travel baseball teams. Travel is non-existent in football, but size and strength eventually weeds out 90% of kids before any kind of recruiting begins.

In soccer the poorest are weeded out first.

Are any club director's out there saying no to the middle class stay at home mom driving the Acura or Mercedes SUV to practice? I don't think so. As long as they fork over the money, they'll be a good squad player to have at practice and help pay the bills.

The kid with the parents willing to fork out the most generally lasts the longest.

I cannot find the politically correct way to further the honest and I believe accurate assessment above. Visit any decent sized youth soccer tournament and see if you notice a significant physical characteristic similar in 85-95% of the little ones on the pitch.

 

[belied dat]

I honestly agree that this WOULD be a great great thing...

Except, the US is, by far, the greatest at monetizing things that should be "free". That is a fact of our culture and provides much of the opportunity people seek in life.

I love soccer, but it is not nearly big enough nor important enough to break away from the free market and Capitalism, not even close.

We need to find solutions that maximize the benefit of the dollars spent. "Free" isn't even in pipe dream territory.

I'm not one that says it truly has to be "free." But, there's no reason to pay what kids pay. I think fair "supplemental" pay could still happen. Fair pricing can happen.

Youth soccer exists for $25-100 depending on the league. That can still happen throughout "club" soccer. I was president of a club and our pricing was $185-220 per season, depending on the age. Our uniforms were Nike and were probably $40 to be outfitted or so. Purchase 100% online if/when something was needed.

If we want to compare other sports, this is the biggest difference. Basketball, baseball, and football coaches are not paid in the youth leagues. Sure, some may get paid in AAU or club baseball. But, they aren't compensated like club soccer personnel are. It's outrageous.

 

[EastYoungstown]

We are not going to compare the development of a 5 year old in a 1-day training/"game" session in an indoor setting for 6 months as a true "year round" for them.

What's the HS season? What's the college season? It runs from late-August (for games) to early-November (unless postseason happens). That leaves September, October, and the weeks that end/begin August/November. So, roughly 2.5 months for 14-22 year olds. That's 8 years of basically having regular training and games for only 2.5 months a year OR 20 out of 96 months (20.8%).

For many areas, they still only do rec soccer in the fall (or spring) within a month of training and games. Club does help offset the calendar a bit, if one can afford it and can access it.

Then, let's incorporate how many are pushed to not "specialize." So, they are then playing less in the "off-season." Whereas, internationally kids play 8-10 months a year AND do more on their own. Every study shows this.

I think you are out of touch man.

I live in Youngstown and you can find soccer games indoor and outdoor year round. That's Youngstown where soccer is barely alive but starting to grow slowly.

I'm sure in Cleveland, Akron, Columbus and Cincinnati you can multiply that times 10. Every weekend of the year, indoor, outdoor and sometimes both.

Outdoor rec is usually at least 100 a head. And there are leagues everywhere, spring and fall.

Indoor teams are 500-800 a session and they are usually full. We have 3 places in the greater Youngstown area that host them (Niles/Cortland/Salem) and they have no problem filling them. Session after session.

Tournaments are 500-800 per team and there are more and more every year across the state at every level.

There's a reason there is a shortage of refs.

And it's not because there's a lack of soccer going on year round.

 

[belied dat]

I think you are out of touch man.

I must be. I guess working in soccer for the last 10+ years has done that.

Please tell me where HS and college seasons are longer than what I've explained. Apparently you've never researched the facts from EVERYWHERE that say Americans spend way less time training/playing than basically everywhere else.

It's no surprise to most how and why internationals are better than Americans. Their playing "age" is way more advanced than their actual "age." That is because they simply spend more time with soccer, organized AND unorganized.

But, you see 5 year olds running in packs. So, I apologize for providing facts.

 

[2731]

I think you are out of touch man.

I don't think he's out of touch, I think he's right about a great many of these issues.

I just don't think the Country or the Federation can swing the culture in only 4 years. (Not that it needs to in order to improve) It's just that people are mad now. Soon they won't care anymore. Time is right for smart change in tiny steps. Anything big... will die when the next big twitter trend happens.

 

[EastYoungstown]

I must be. I guess working in soccer for the last 10+ years has done that.

Please tell me where HS and college seasons are longer than what I've explained. Apparently you've never researched the facts from EVERYWHERE that say Americans spend way less time training/playing than basically everywhere else.

It's no surprise to most how and why internationals are better than Americans. Their playing "age" is way more advanced than their actual "age." That is because they simply spend more time with soccer, organized AND unorganized.

But, you see 5 year olds running in packs. So, I apologize for providing facts.

You say it's not a year round sport. I say it is. I think it's pretty clear that it is.

I never said anything about HS and college seasons. Those are minor and secondary.

 

[belied dat]

I live in Youngstown and you can find soccer games indoor and outdoor year round. That's Youngstown where soccer is barely alive.

I'm sure in Cleveland, Akron, Columbus and Cincinnati you can multiply that times 10. Every weekend of the year, indoor, outdoor and sometimes both.

Outdoor rec is usually at least 100 a head. And there are leagues everywhere, spring and fall.

Indoor teams are 500-800 a session and they are usually full. We have 3 places in the greater Youngstown area that host them (Niles/Cortland/Salem) and they have no problem filling them.

Tournaments are 500-800 per team and there are more and more every year.

There's a reason there is a shortage of refs.

And it's not because there's a lack of soccer going on year round.

I have worked in 4 states in the last 10 years. All soccer jobs. Yes, one can find some indoor or outdoor leagues. But, that doesn't mean anything. There's beer league softball more than soccer leagues, what does that mean?

I currently play in two leagues. They play once a week. What does that do? There's nothing else involved in it. Growing up, I played in two seasons: fall and winter. Fall was structure I gave. Winter...indoor once a week. My hometown FINALLY started a spring league in 2015 for youth players, and it was a hit! I tried for years to get it going, the fight was it would interfere with baseball season...that didn't start until late/mid May. It was a smaller league, half the size of fall league, but that's more kids that weren't in the sport through the season it was played.

Just because there's leagues and/or people playing once a week, doesn't mean soccer is getting better OR people are truly developing. I have coached club, worked in club, and constantly talk with club coaches. What is the common theme? The amount of players that don't show up for training, excuses, frustrations, etc.

 

[Philly_Cat]

A total tear down from top to bottom.

Now I know this is going to rankle some folks who worship at the alter of "elite" club soccer but US soccer should at least look into focusing more attention on High School Soccer as a means of facilitating large scale youth development. Heck, this pipeline has worked very well for football.

Look the nature of American child labor laws and contracts makes it tricky to have European style academy's. Let's face it, high school soccer has an infrastructure in place to build off of as it has already organized the kids into groups, provided a structure for extensive practice and game playing and added a bit of spice in representing your school and playing in front of your classmates under the lights. Elite club soccer rarely offers all these things.

If US soccer started providing grants to high schools to upgrade their fields and provide training for their coaches and special local camps over the summer for the players (I know they already do some of this but I'm talking seriously enhancing the effort) then you might be surprised at the results in ten years.

I disagree with all of this. High school soccer is not the answer. You use high school football as the model, but that is not apples to apples. America has the monopoly on football in the world. America has all the athletes and sets the standard. We can run football just about anyway we want and we will still produce the best players and teams. That is not the case in soccer. This same sort of monopoly on the sport is what led to the US Woman's program being so successful. We were one of the first countries to buy into the idea of letting woman sports be legit. Thus that gave our women a head start on training and development over the rest of the World. And we showed what that head start can do. But now the women's game is starting to look like the men's game when you look at international participation? The result: The pack has caught up.

Unlike football, in soccer we don't have the best athletes, we don't have the best teams, we don't have the best leagues, we don't have the best clubs. And we are competing against the entire world, as pretty much every developed country has soccer. And you think high school soccer, where you play for 4 months or so, is the answer to US soccer internationally? Come on son!

I personally think the basic structure for US soccer to be better is already in place. The problem is the American mentality changing to fit to it. High school soccer won't help internationally. College soccer will not help internationally. But these are the normal athletic pathways Americans are ingrained to know as THE way to the pros. And those two ways can and will get you to the pros........in America. But the MLS is far inferior to many other pro leagues around the world. So you can follow that path and potentially make be a pro in the MLS, but you are still lacking in the rest of the world.

Americans as a whole don't like to ever believe their way isn't the best way. So instead, we sit at a stalemate between the American public and US soccer, and US Soccer will continue to suffer because of it.

 

[Philly_Cat]

Finding a way to fully fund the DA would be a good start.

Bingo! I would also look to point out that there are some DA clubs that are fully funded, meaning it is free to play for them. These clubs are usually attached to MLS clubs, thus the money to make that happen. Honestly, fully funded should be the norm across the board for DA clubs. Do that and you will get a larger percentage of the best talent to develop.

Soccer has become an exclusive sport. Regardless of talent, to play at the top you really do need money. The result is a lot of potential talent is pushed away and picked up by other sports because the cost is too much.

 

[belied dat]

Screw the emphasis on the DA. It's 149 clubs. That's it. At the upper age brackets, there are only 72. Do we really believe that we can find "all" of the best players utilizing on average of 1.5 DAs per state (3 DAs at younger ages).

No way. Never going to give THAT much power to those entities. Look what happened with ODP. It was essentially the precursor to the DA. You had one per state association. They competed regionally (same as DA). Then they compete nationally (same as DA). So...how'd that end up? I've read enough on the Yap that shows how y'all feel about ODP.

 

[EastYoungstown]

I have worked in 4 states in the last 10 years. All soccer jobs. Yes, one can find some indoor or outdoor leagues. But, that doesn't mean anything. There's beer league softball more than soccer leagues, what does that mean?

I currently play in two leagues. They play once a week. What does that do? There's nothing else involved in it. Growing up, I played in two seasons: fall and winter. Fall was structure I gave. Winter...indoor once a week. My hometown FINALLY started a spring league in 2015 for youth players, and it was a hit! I tried for years to get it going, the fight was it would interfere with baseball season...that didn't start until late/mid May. It was a smaller league, half the size of fall league, but that's more kids that weren't in the sport through the season it was played.

Just because there's leagues and/or people playing once a week, doesn't mean soccer is getting better OR people are truly developing. I have coached club, worked in club, and constantly talk with club coaches. What is the common theme? The amount of players that don't show up for training, excuses, frustrations, etc.

You said soccer is only played a couple months a year at the younger levels.

I disagreed and said it's year round.

So lemme get this straight..... to prove your point about soccer NOT being year round you are going to equate youth and HS age rec/travel/academy games to meaningless adult beer league softball games?

 

[EastYoungstown]

Bingo! I would also look to point out that there are some DA clubs that are fully funded, meaning it is free to play for them. These clubs are usually attached to MLS clubs, thus the money to make that happen. Honestly, fully funded should be the norm across the board for DA clubs. Do that and you will get a larger percentage of the best talent to develop.

Soccer has become an exclusive sport. Regardless of talent, to play at the top you really do need money. The result is a lot of potential talent is pushed away and picked up by other sports because the cost is too much.

Exactly, it's survival of the richest, not survival of the fittest.

If these academies were fully funded the amount of kids trying out for them and the competition to make them would be far more fierce.

Of the kids I know that would absolutely have a chance to make them, maybe 10% even try due to the financial and travel hurdles.

 

[Kickin Wing]

My hometown FINALLY started a spring league in 2015 for youth players, and it was a hit! I tried for years to get it going, the fight was it would interfere with baseball season...that didn't start until late/mid May. It was a smaller league, half the size of fall league, but that's more kids that weren't in the sport through the season it was played.

Just because there's leagues and/or people playing once a week, doesn't mean soccer is getting better OR people are truly developing. I have coached club, worked in club, and constantly talk with club coaches. What is the common theme? The amount of players that don't show up for training, excuses, frustrations, etc.

Don't know where you are... But its not like that everywhere. I have lots of select coaches that are waiting for the VERY DAY that players on their High School teams lose in tournament, so they can pick training back up the next. Although, I am in Cincinnati... Soccer capital of Ohio!

 

[belied dat]

You said soccer is only played a couple months a year at the younger levels.

I disagreed and said it's year round.

So lemme get this straight..... to prove your point about soccer NOT being year round you are going to equate youth and HS age rec/travel/academy games to meaningless adult beer league softball games?

You didn't prove anything. Playing indoor once a week is not "year round" soccer. Playing indoor once a week IS the same as meaningless beer league softball. Once a week doesn't do anything. Period. Go eat a salad once a week, see if you end up being healthy.

 

[belied dat]

Don't know where you are... But its not like that everywhere. I have lots of select coaches that are waiting for the VERY DAY that players on their High School teams lose in tournament, so they can pick training back up the next. Although, I am in Cincinnati... Soccer capital of Ohio!

I'm in Cincinnati, now. I see it here too. I talk with the coaches, they have the same. Sure, it's great to have some that really can't wait to get back to training. Go out and see how many kids are doing anything outside of organized training. No one plays on their own. Limited training and playing on the personal level.

As I mentioned previously, ALL studies show (internationally and USSF) that American soccer players are not playing organized AND unorganized soccer as much as international counterparts.

 

[belied dat]

First change today: Arena resigns. Tab Ramos named interim coach. Full 8-month search for next full-time coach, should be named after Russia.

 

[Kickin Wing]

First change today: Arena resigns. Tab Ramos named interim coach. Full 8-month search for next full-time coach, should be named after Russia.

As I stated in the second post on this thread, they should probably make me coach... actually they are probably looking for me now!

 

[EastYoungstown]

You didn't prove anything. Playing indoor once a week is not "year round" soccer. Playing indoor once a week IS the same as meaningless beer league softball. Once a week doesn't do anything. Period. Go eat a salad once a week, see if you end up being healthy.

Those same kids are practicing 2-4 nights

you know exactly what I'm talking about, but refuse to admit it

good luck with HS and college soccer fixing things..... what a joke.

 

[belied dat]

As I stated in the second post on this thread, they should probably make me coach... actually they are probably looking for me now!

Correction on my post though, Tab Ramos not officially the interim coach. That was rumors from USMNT pool players. He has been acting as Technical Director since JK was fired, in an unofficial capacity.

Those same kids are practicing 2-4 nights

you know exactly what I'm talking about, but refuse to admit it

good luck with HS and college soccer fixing things..... what a joke.

Why would I refuse to admit it? I'm in the game, have been personally involved for years and continuously talk to coaches. We all have the same complaints.

If THAT much is going on in Youngstown, why haven't we seen more positive soccer come out of Youngstown? If it is legitimate positive soccer development, surely Youngstown is producing stud players. Kiki Willis was last one, and that unfortunately ended prematurely and terribly.

 

[EastYoungstown]

as far as the coach goes, I'm not sure i would want the job right now.

Gulati is on thin ice and nothing well be set til at least next fall.

if someone gets the job now they would just be a caretaker.

as the saying goes, you dont wanna be the guy to replace the guy, you wanna be the guy that replaces the guy that replaced the guy.

 

[belied dat]

as far as the coach goes, I'm not sure i would want the job right now.

Gulati is on thin ice and nothing well be set til at least next fall.

if someone gets the job now they would just be a caretaker.

as the saying goes, you dont wanna be the guy to replace the guy, you wanna be the guy that replaces the guy that replaced the guy.

That's what I say too! Who really wants to step in the mess that is USSF? Yeah, we'll probably have a system guy (Ramos, Vermes, etc.). But, there needs to be someone who will help with an overhaul.

International candidates see the headaches that JK had in trying to make changes. That'll shy away numerous quality candidates. Rumor is that Big Sam Allardyce wants to come here. Please...no. Not for club or country.

Gulati is up for reelection in February. He will be deciding if he wants to run again, or not. There have already been several candidates who have come forward that will be running.

 

[EastYoungstown]

and Tab isn't official yet

 

[EastYoungstown]

That's what I say too! Who really wants to step in the mess that is USSF? Yeah, we'll probably have a system guy (Ramos, Vermes, etc.). But, there needs to be someone who will help with an overhaul.

International candidates see the headaches that JK had in trying to make changes. That'll shy away numerous quality candidates. Rumor is that Big Sam Allardyce wants to come here. Please...no. Not for club or country.

Gulati is up for reelection in February. He will be deciding if he wants to run again, or not. There have already been several candidates who have come forward that will be running.

BIG SAM......... hahahahahahahaha

 

[belied dat]

and Tab isn't official yet

Correct, I made that clarification later.

 

[EastYoungstown]

Correct, I made that clarification later.

smart of him not to pic up that hot poker..... let that cool down a little

 

[lotr10]

I disagree with all of this. High school soccer is not the answer. You use high school football as the model, but that is not apples to apples. America has the monopoly on football in the world. America has all the athletes and sets the standard. We can run football just about anyway we want and we will still produce the best players and teams. That is not the case in soccer. This same sort of monopoly on the sport is what led to the US Woman's program being so successful. We were one of the first countries to buy into the idea of letting woman sports be legit. Thus that gave our women a head start on training and development over the rest of the World. And we showed what that head start can do. But now the women's game is starting to look like the men's game when you look at international participation? The result: The pack has caught up.

Unlike football, in soccer we don't have the best athletes, we don't have the best teams, we don't have the best leagues, we don't have the best clubs. And we are competing against the entire world, as pretty much every developed country has soccer. And you think high school soccer, where you play for 4 months or so, is the answer to US soccer internationally? Come on son!

I personally think the basic structure for US soccer to be better is already in place. The problem is the American mentality changing to fit to it. High school soccer won't help internationally. College soccer will not help internationally. But these are the normal athletic pathways Americans are ingrained to know as THE way to the pros. And those two ways can and will get you to the pros........in America. But the MLS is far inferior to many other pro leagues around the world. So you can follow that path and potentially make be a pro in the MLS, but you are still lacking in the rest of the world.

Americans as a whole don't like to ever believe their way isn't the best way. So instead, we sit at a stalemate between the American public and US soccer, and US Soccer will continue to suffer because of it.

Philly, to be clear while I went into details about how HS soccer could be modified and used to improve US soccer I don't believe it could accomplish this in a vacuum. Many of the other ideas put out on this thread could still be done in addition to a focus on taking advantage of the soccer infrastructure already in place.

* Move the HS soccer season to the spring across the entire USA. Exploit the growing popularity of soccer to recreate the "Friday Night Soccer" experience at the high school level. This would include evening games under the lights and bands playing at halftime. Kids are looking for a place to hang out and HS baseball simply can't provide the experience to mimic Friday night lights that soccer can, IMO.

* If you can establish a "Friday Night Lights" experience for soccer in HS it WILL attract better athletes to the game. As an added bonus you will convert more kids into future adult fans for the game. This is a win-win.

* You mention that HS soccer would only be a few months, true but the kids practice and play games basically 6 days out of 7 following a daily preseason training regimen. It's been over 20 years since my kid played club soccer but I don't remember them practicing as often as they do in HS.

* I get your criticism that football is unique so let's go with baseball as the model where you have year round club baseball AND high school baseball complimenting each other. In the case of soccer, if you can recreate the "Friday Night Lights" atmosphere for spring soccer, then it would have an edge on HS baseball in attracting top athletes.

Bottom line is that it's time to experiment and recognize that there isn't one solution here. Simply trying to incorporate HS soccer into the plan as part of a bigger effort seems like an easy way to both generate a larger player pipeline AND increase the sports popularity.