Upon Reflection...

N

nooks

Well-known member
From the lofty privilege of full hindsight, things I would advise my youthful self, or any new aspiring wrestler now, that I didn't know then......

1) Train, practice & wrestle with "attitude." Be on a mission and demand of yourself to fulfill that mission. Former College Coach Wayne Baughman used to insist that the wrestler who wins the "fight" usually wins the match. Approach your matches that way, always. Yes, that means wrestle "mean," not nice.
2) Be in better shape than your opponent. This includes NOT cutting too much weight. As Dan Gable used to say, "if you can't eat a decent steak dinner the night before a match, your cutting too much." Get your body fat down to as lean as is possible but where you're not hungry. Lincoln MacIlravy says don't cut at all.
3) Nutrition, nutrition, nutrition! Eat right and know that "you are what you eat." Think David Taylor here.
4) In today's world, if being the very best is the mission, you MUST be a one-sport wrestling fanatic. The guys you'll have to beat ARE!
5) Lift year round and yes, especially during the season, unlike how we were taught.
6) Start early and seek out the best instruction possible, wherever you can find it. By early, I mean grade school. Not Jr. high, like it used to be.
7) Seek out, & choose the best workout partners possible. You should strive to practice & compete as often as possible with guys who are better than you. In practice workout with bigger partners and don't use being lighter as an excuse to fail.
8) The 2 hours/day you spend in the wrestling room training is merely the tiniest tip of the time you should be devoting to training. State champions spend an additional 2-4 hours/day beyond that, so should you.
9) This one is where I probably stir some controversy... The "late developer" red shirt. IMHO, if you are a kid who hails from a family of men ( Dad, Maternal grandfather, brothers ) who physically developed late, i.e. weren't full grown until after 20 or so, absolutely consider starting grade school a year late. Note: I'm not saying sit out the 8th grade once you are there...I'm saying have Dad hold you back from starting the 1st grade. Obviously this is Dad's responsibility, not 5 year old YOU. Are you listening Dad??? Trust me, you'll be a lot happier in HS. :)
 
 
With the current OHSAA rules in regards to homeschooling. It would likely be beneficial to be homeschooled. You can likely complete all your school work in just a few hours and have more time to dedicate to your craft. Also, if you are willing to be a diligent student and "go" to school year round you may be able to further lighten your in season load.
 
Actually, in hindsight, my biggest takeaway of all is that for 98% of all of the kids who choose to compete in a sanctioned, organised sport....High School will be their only chance.
The problem is that 12 year old Johnny doesn't "get this." You've got just 4 years from roughly 14-18 to make it all count.
You must be shown this clearly and then embrace it fully, or you will most likely look back later with regret.
Or...you could just do what most have done...show-up not "getting it" ( the big 4-year and that's all there is picture ), participate with no real mission and call it good. Your choice. Many who look back wish they had known & chosen differently.
 
nooks said:
Actually, in hindsight, my biggest takeaway of all is that for 98% of all of the kids who choose to compete in a sanctioned, organised sport....High School will be their only chance.
The problem is that 12 year old Johnny doesn't "get this." You've got just 4 years from roughly 14-18 to make it all count.
You must be shown this clearly and then embrace it fully, or you will most likely look back later with regret.
Or...you could just do what most have done...show-up not "getting it" ( the big 4-year and that's all there is picture ), participate with no real mission and call it good. Your choice. Many who look back wish they had known & chosen differently.
Click to expand...
Which is why part of what a coach should be doing is to help create good men (and women of course) not just win. And the “not getting it” is usually because many coaches aren’t honest about hs vs. college sports with athletes. Or parents living through little Johnny by “making” them “have a mission” whether or not the kid is intrinsically motivated to do it.

And like with many things involving adolescents. Sometimes all you can do is show and tell them what they should be doing if they want certain goals and helping them use success and failure productively. And to use the lessons learned in their personal careers.. opportunities and access should be given to as many kids as possible. They should as much as possible be given the tools to succeed.. but a kid learning the importance of personal accountability and responsibility is crucial too.
 
Good points...and I will say this...nothing and I mean nothing ever lit a bigger fire under me following HS more than not having met my goals in HS wrestling. That's why I believe that some of the greatest coaches & teachers were those who never did "win it all." Gable & Smith aside...:)
 
MPhillips,
With all due respect, there are 2-types of people in this world (yea, I know...:)) 1) Those like the Hollywood types, who always say, "Ya know, if I had to do it all over again..I wouldn't change a thing!" and 2) THE REST OF US!
Yea, I think most of us would make a few changes and if you say you've never dream't about that...yer lying...:)
 
Nooks,
Zero regrets here. But I'm grown and my athletic accolades and shortcomings are far behind me.
Some kids just want to play a sport with no dreams attached. Just to play and be a part of a team is enough.
We lose those kids we lose HS athletics.
Not looking to debate. I've already said more than is necessary. ✌
 
MPhillips said:
Nooks,
Zero regrets here. But I'm grown and my athletic accolades and shortcomings are far behind me.
Some kids just want to play a sport with no dreams attached. Just to play and be a part of a team is enough.
We lose those kids we lose HS athletics.
Not looking to debate. I've already said more than is necessary. ✌
Click to expand...

+1

Ultimately, sports serve different purposes for different people. My belief is that there is room at the table for them.
 
No disagreement here. Besides I'm too old to argue. One thing I think we all can take away is that the lessons from having participated are enormous, however they may have impacted us individually. Kinda like the old saying..."Tis better too have loved and lost than to have never loved at all..."
 
cruiser_96 said:
+1

Ultimately, sports serve different purposes for different people. My belief is that there is room at the table for them.
Click to expand...
+1 again. I’ll occasionally have a loss randomly pop into my head at night still. But moving on is a part of it and I honestly don’t think I’d take a redo. The experiences made me who I am.

And people need to be okay with some Hs athletes not being “tuff” or “hardcore dedicated”. I also think that no one should ever try to peak in hs.. for pretty much anything
 
And maybe some kids don’t realize what they have until it’s too late,,, youth, school, grades, freedom, athletics, family, team, etc.
So holding a kid back will help him to realize that and open his eyes up and get all he can get before it passes.
 
I think people just never really hear about the long-term fallout of some of the hardcore guys who didn't become David Taylor. There are many stories of those guys once they get away from parents, who were actually driving the professional like training, where they can't function normally and have major issues. A lot of those things from the first post are great if a kid has the maturity and desire to do it themselves, where things fall apart is when parents start driving those choices because it leads to a lot of social and mental issues that can unravel later on.

I was coming up right when the single sport, super dedicated training craze started taking over, and know a lot of guys from that era. Even some of the ones that didn't completely unravel and seem pretty normal will tell you they wished they would have enjoyed being a teenager a bit more and maybe not trained as much. I know one guy who was held back that had really good results but wishes he hadn't just thinking about the impact of starting "life" that much later and what it means long term. It's probably one of those grass isn't always greener on the other side things, but I think it's worth pointing out the potential fallout of the uber professional child athlete.

Just another perspective. As I said, when a kid can realize all those things without a parent pushing them that I think is when you get something really special. Once you add varying degrees of parents leaning on kids you can get wildly varying long-term results.
 
Suplexer130 said:
I think people just never really hear about the long-term fallout of some of the hardcore guys who didn't become David Taylor. There are many stories of those guys once they get away from parents, who were actually driving the professional like training, where they can't function normally and have major issues. A lot of those things from the first post are great if a kid has the maturity and desire to do it themselves, where things fall apart is when parents start driving those choices because it leads to a lot of social and mental issues that can unravel later on.

I was coming up right when the single sport, super dedicated training craze started taking over, and know a lot of guys from that era. Even some of the ones that didn't completely unravel and seem pretty normal will tell you they wished they would have enjoyed being a teenager a bit more and maybe not trained as much. I know one guy who was held back that had really good results but wishes he hadn't just thinking about the impact of starting "life" that much later and what it means long term. It's probably one of those grass isn't always greener on the other side things, but I think it's worth pointing out the potential fallout of the uber professional child athlete.

Just another perspective. As I said, when a kid can realize all those things without a parent pushing them that I think is when you get something really special. Once you add varying degrees of parents leaning on kids you can get wildly varying long-term results.
Click to expand...
That’s actually a big part of the issue I have. Most of the people defending or justifying this stuff don’t realize or flat ignore what it does to most of the kids brought up in it.. like 80%+
 
iamjacksuglythrowaway said:
That’s actually a big part of the issue I have. Most of the people defending or justifying this stuff don’t realize or flat ignore what it does to most of the kids brought up in it.. like 80%+
Click to expand...
Wow!!! 80%??
When did you do this statewide survey? Must’ve taken years/decades to gather this data.
Going high school to high school.
Junior high to junior high.
Requesting birth certificates from hundreds of thousands of student athletes.
Getting parents permission to talk to these kids.
And then tracking them down after high school to see if they went on to college, got a job, or just spent the rest of their life hating their parents.
You are dedicated to your work.
Can you post the data/stats you have gathered?
No names, just maybe the numbers and years.
 
WishYouWereHere said:
Wow!!! 80%??
When did you do this statewide survey? Must’ve taken years/decades to gather this data.
Going high school to high school.
Junior high to junior high.
Requesting birth certificates from hundreds of thousands of student athletes.
Getting parents permission to talk to these kids.
And then tracking them down after high school to see if they went on to college, got a job, or just spent the rest of their life hating their parents.
You are dedicated to your work.
Can you post the data/stats you have gathered?
No names, just maybe the numbers and years.
Click to expand...
Well... I actually deliberately put a lower number than what I actually think. I was pretty measured.
I’m also going to answer in the same tone since you clearly are resentful of the implications.

I’ll be the first to admit my observation doesn’t quite meet your facetious straw man standard.. what it actually is based upon is growing up in the system, with other wrestlers, wrestled in college with teammates who grew up in the system, and have now coached in multiple states and observed the effects of what happens to most of the athletes.

I was in some ways fortunate to have minimal parental involvement. Because it let me observe as an outsider the dynamics going on. I can also pull upon watching many of those kids discover freedom for the first time and go off on partying binges or settle into dip bottled CoD induced lethargy. I can pull on seeing many of them struggling with mental health once they didn’t have the sport anymore because dad cared more about wrasslin than having a functional human being.

Been in conversation with teammates and other former college guys around my age actually talk about how much they hate the sport and only do it because they were made to and now are just trying to get through college. I’ve seen how few of them want their kid to wrestle or seriously consider coaching when they could.

I could talk about coaching in 4 different states and watching what goes on.

I could go on and on... but my point is that my observation is based off now a literal lifetime of experience from more than one place.. and having actually talked to the people in question...

So Mr. “Pissed off at someone stating the long term consequences of a system”.. I may not have the thousands of examples that you want.. but I seen hundreds of them..
 
iamjacksuglythrowaway said:
Well... I actually deliberately put a lower number than what I actually think. I was pretty measured.
I’m also going to answer in the same tone since you clearly are resentful of the implications.

I’ll be the first to admit my observation doesn’t quite meet your facetious straw man standard.. what it actually is based upon is growing up in the system, with other wrestlers, wrestled in college with teammates who grew up in the system, and have now coached in multiple states and observed the effects of what happens to most of the athletes.

I was in some ways fortunate to have minimal parental involvement. Because it let me observe as an outsider the dynamics going on. I can also pull upon watching many of those kids discover freedom for the first time and go off on partying binges or settle into dip bottled CoD induced lethargy. I can pull on seeing many of them struggling with mental health once they didn’t have the sport anymore because dad cared more about wrasslin than having a functional human being.

Been in conversation with teammates and other former college guys around my age actually talk about how much they hate the sport and only do it because they were made to and now are just trying to get through college. I’ve seen how few of them want their kid to wrestle or seriously consider coaching when they could.

I could talk about coaching in 4 different states and watching what goes on.

I could go on and on... but my point is that my observation is based off now a literal lifetime of experience from more than one place.. and having actually talked to the people in question...

So Mr. “Pissed off at someone stating the long term consequences of a system”.. I may not have the thousands of examples that you want.. but I seen hundreds of them..
Click to expand...
Well said my friend! But what the heck is "dip bottled CoD induced lethargy"?
 
Got it...In my day it was zoning out to Led Zeppelin IV with your Pioneer stereo cranked up to 6 and "tooting" on a leftover "stem." Too funny...
 
I probably had longer hair than you did while watching “The Song Remains the Same”.
I get it, you both may have been around the sport as long as I (I also did not get the COD reference).
You feel that with what you have seen and/or heard, that there is no way that a kid held back will grow up to be a functioning part of society.
But, I can explain a side of it without being or sounding angry. I tried to not sound irritated but you heard anger because it was a disagreement with your beliefs.
No worries. We can still be friends.
I was merely stating that I felt that your percentage is waaaayyy off (from my experiences with kids, students, coaches, officials, parents, college, employment, athletes, etc). I was hoping you would post your numbers on here for us all to see. I was curious... not angry. Then I would have had the proof that I was seeking. But, this is not the case.
Good luck to you my friend. Hopefully you find what you are looking for.
 
nooks said:
Got it...In my day it was zoning out to Led Zeppelin IV with your Pioneer stereo cranked up to 6 and "tooting" on a leftover "stem." Too funny...
Click to expand...

I still have all the components with mine including the turntable, the Pioneer rack with the special headphone jack at the bottom and the Pioneer "fatty" headphones. All 'top shelf' in 83-84. Maybe even some, "stem" in the creases of an old, Allman Brothers Band, ‘At Fillmore East’:p
 
C1C38AA2-54BB-462F-82A3-8317F32A9C3C.jpeg
 
nooks said:
From the lofty privilege of full hindsight, things I would advise my youthful self, or any new aspiring wrestler now, that I didn't know then......

1) Train, practice & wrestle with "attitude." Be on a mission and demand of yourself to fulfill that mission. Former College Coach Wayne Baughman used to insist that the wrestler who wins the "fight" usually wins the match. Approach your matches that way, always. Yes, that means wrestle "mean," not nice.
2) Be in better shape than your opponent. This includes NOT cutting too much weight. As Dan Gable used to say, "if you can't eat a decent steak dinner the night before a match, your cutting too much." Get your body fat down to as lean as is possible but where you're not hungry. Lincoln MacIlravy says don't cut at all.
3) Nutrition, nutrition, nutrition! Eat right and know that "you are what you eat." Think David Taylor here.
4) In today's world, if being the very best is the mission, you MUST be a one-sport wrestling fanatic. The guys you'll have to beat ARE!
5) Lift year round and yes, especially during the season, unlike how we were taught.
6) Start early and seek out the best instruction possible, wherever you can find it. By early, I mean grade school. Not Jr. high, like it used to be.
7) Seek out, & choose the best workout partners possible. You should strive to practice & compete as often as possible with guys who are better than you. In practice workout with bigger partners and don't use being lighter as an excuse to fail.
8) The 2 hours/day you spend in the wrestling room training is merely the tiniest tip of the time you should be devoting to training. State champions spend an additional 2-4 hours/day beyond that, so should you.
9) This one is where I probably stir some controversy... The "late developer" red shirt. IMHO, if you are a kid who hails from a family of men ( Dad, Maternal grandfather, brothers ) who physically developed late, i.e. weren't full grown until after 20 or so, absolutely consider starting grade school a year late. Note: I'm not saying sit out the 8th grade once you are there...I'm saying have Dad hold you back from starting the 1st grade. Obviously this is Dad's responsibility, not 5 year old YOU. Are you listening Dad??? Trust me, you'll be a lot happier in HS. :)
Click to expand...
Probably goes without saying, but wrestling year round. I was a very good wrestler in the early 80s, but never wrestled in the summer. That was a big regret that I still have the " what ifs" about. Guys that I routinely beat passed me up because of this.
 
WishYouWereHere said:
I probably had longer hair than you did while watching “The Song Remains the Same”.
I get it, you both may have been around the sport as long as I (I also did not get the COD reference).
You feel that with what you have seen and/or heard, that there is no way that a kid held back will grow up to be a functioning part of society.
But, I can explain a side of it without being or sounding angry. I tried to not sound irritated but you heard anger because it was a disagreement with your beliefs.
No worries. We can still be friends.
I was merely stating that I felt that your percentage is waaaayyy off (from my experiences with kids, students, coaches, officials, parents, college, employment, athletes, etc). I was hoping you would post your numbers on here for us all to see. I was curious... not angry. Then I would have had the proof that I was seeking. But, this is not the case.
Good luck to you my friend. Hopefully you find what you are looking for.
Click to expand...
If you disagree that’s fine. I think a big part of how I see it is being much closer to the current year round training most kids are put through and having experienced it. I also don’t have a stake in it. I didn’t have those parents. I don’t coach club. I was actually discussing this topic with my college teammate from a different state about this the other day. Most people I see underplaying it were a part of it and not actually put through wrestling hundreds of matches at 8 years old, OR getting chewed out for “losing” a youth match because they tried something different.

Also, a large majority of the kids I know who did turn out functional have absolutely no interest in coaching or letting their kids wrestle. And the amount I know with that attitude is increasing.

“What I’m looking for” LOL. This is mostly a time waster. As well as a chance to state my Frank opinions on wrestling.
 
MPhillips said:
I still have all the components with mine including the turntable, the Pioneer rack with the special headphone jack at the bottom and the Pioneer "fatty" headphones. All 'top shelf' in 83-84. Maybe even some, "stem" in the creases of an old, Allman Brothers Band, ‘At Fillmore East’:p
Click to expand...
The best "warm up" wrestling song I ever listened too and one that could get you ready to run through a wall was "I Don't Need No Dr". by Humble Pie recorded "live" at the Fillmore. It always sounded so Huge on my Pioneer. It could be on "10" and before an Ohio State game people on the floor below me would still scream..."Turn it Up"!
 
One final competitive tidbit I learned "after" HS.
While in grad school , I worked part-time as a personal trainer. The gym I used a lot was a well-known power-lifting & competitive Bodybuilding place. An old bodybuilder named Len Archimbault, who used to train with Lou Ferrigno was often asked to evaluate and teach "posing" to prospective young bodybuilders. He would never "sugarcoat it " with them. Before readying for any competition his advice was to always train to be at the next level, before you competed at the one you were at. Looking back, that meant if you aspired to be a champion in HS, you had already better be capable of competing at the college level. I know, it's radical, but in states like Ohio, Pennsylvania, N.J. & Ca. it is what it is...not that I necessarily like it.
Great conversing with you all.
 
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