Status of National Trail Raceway/State Cross Country Meet?

psycho_dad

Well-known member
Only logical ways to do it is something like 18 teams and 24 individuals, 17 and 31 or 16-38.... If they aren't going to do that, then team races and individual races.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
I have not coached in a long time so my opinion is meaningless but like Slippery I think #1 is the only option. Since there is an individual component to XC I hope they do not combine the races via time for individual status and awards. I would rather see a reduced amount from each race receive awards before using time from separate races. I can't see any way they will have an awards ceremony. No matter how they do it, option #1 seems to be the only smart choice.
I'd go for a modification of running the team race but also include the top 2 individuals from each regional race whose teams did not advance. That would be a max of 148 runners, and with how many top individuals also might be team members (in DIII and DII especially), there's a good chance that the integrity of the competition to determine the individual champion could also be improved. On the flip side, it might only leave about 20-30 runners for the individual race.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
Fewer teams and fewer individuals moving on from regional would be my choice. Why is that simple solution not an option?
Dollar dollar bill, y'all. Given the change the OHSAA is making to their finances for this year's football playoffs, it's clear they need to bring in revenue.

Even my district meet is charging admission this fall for the 1st time ever. There has previously been a parking fee which the host school keeps, but there has never been an admission fee which goes to the District Board.
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
It would be nice to see a course map. I'm still trying to see how they even fit over 150 runners on a course at that location. Starting line?
 
I voted for #1. Any separation of the teams compromises the integrity of the team race. I also think it will be great to see the cross divisional individual matchups that we don’t get a chance to see most years.
All that said, I still see every option as a loss.
 

runohio

Member
It would be nice to see a course map. I'm still trying to see how they even fit over 150 runners on a course at that location. Starting line?
I emailed someone yesterday at the OHSAA and said they hope to have a course map in a couple of weeks..Not sure why they don't have one yet, unless there were issues with their first course design..
 
I see there is a course map out for the Middle School State Meet on the OHSAA site for the meet they are conducting the week before at Fortress Obetz.
 
So is that is 11 concrete crossing (or 8 if one spot is stones) in a two mile race and finishing on field turf?
My OATCCC source told me months ago that they were planning or working on providing mats and other accommodations for crossings. I don't know if that became reality and if they will be used for the middle school meet.
 

bgtri11

Member
How far is that start before they make that first turn? I counted 20 turns on this course. How wide will the course be? At National Trail that first turn was always rough and this looks much shorter than that, and the part of the course right after the first turn at National Trail was way too narrow for a championship race.
 

Altor

Well-known member
My OATCCC source told me months ago that they were planning or working on providing mats and other accommodations for crossings. I don't know if that became reality and if they will be used for the middle school meet.
They had mats for the places where the course crossed the drag strip. I don't know why they couldn't just bring those to Obetz...
 

Running Man 101

Active member
Dollar dollar bill, y'all. Given the change the OHSAA is making to their finances for this year's football playoffs, it's clear they need to bring in revenue.

Even my district meet is charging admission this fall for the 1st time ever. There has previously been a parking fee which the host school keeps, but there has never been an admission fee which goes to the District Board.
We've always paid at Districts, as far back as a can remember.

I voted for the Team and combined individual race. Just award them for each race. Award the top 20 finishers in each race. Don't see how you could ever combine the results from two different races. The team race with JUST teams in it could be competed against very differently.
 
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madman

Well-known member
I will always believe that a great cross-country race can be run without a clock. No way a championship should be based on times. If it ever gets to that, let's just run a virtual meet at Milesplit and call it a day.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
I will always believe that a great cross-country race can be run without a clock. No way a championship should be based on times. If it ever gets to that, let's just run a virtual meet at Milesplit and call it a day.
No disagreement from me.

It would be nice to see a course map. I'm still trying to see how they even fit over 150 runners on a course at that location. Starting line?
Based on where the starting line is drawn, and where the course encompasses the starting line, I took some measurements on my computer screen. Along the angle of the starting line, I measured from where the line would hit the course at each end if the starting line spanned that entire interior section. I also measured from 1 end of the turf field to the other. I could use those 2 measurements to create a proportion. I assumed the turf field spanned a minimum of 120 yards and could use that figure to set up a 2nd proportion. A little cross multiplication of the 2 proportions is all that's needed to estimate the length of the starting line. I come up with a minimum estimate of 100.8 yards. If all starting line recommendations are followed, how many teams can fit along the starting line? What if the request is granted to allow 185 runners in the race? Is there enough room to create additional boxes for the individual competitors, or will the boxes be narrower with runners starting 2 and 3 deep? I'm too tired to do those calculations right now. They might come out just fine.

Don't misunderstand me and think I'm advocating not holding the meet or anything like that based on what the starting line can or can't accommodate, but those are the types of details that must be taken into account and hopefully have already been considered when the powers that be discussed what the meet might look like this year. My school had a home meet a few weeks ago. Ordinarily, creating the starting line is no big deal after deciding where it will be. Enter 2020 and all the protocols and recommendations. Until sketching it out and spreading a tape measure along the ground to figure out how much length the starting boxes would occupy and how much to angle each one toward a point of convergence near the 1st turn (160m away in our case), I never realized how much space would be utilized in creating adequate starting boxes for so few teams.
 
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psycho_dad

Well-known member
I assume that the loops are just larger for the HS course. Seems like a lot of grass area wasted.
Wouldn't it be nice to just assume that it's going to be a great course and venue, but it's been so bad lately that we can't?!
 

Running Man 101

Active member
I assume that the loops are just larger for the HS course. Seems like a lot of grass area wasted.
Wouldn't it be nice to just assume that it's going to be a great course and venue, but it's been so bad lately that we can't?!
Let's run there and find out. Be the same for everyone. Over the years I have noticed some kids run slightly better/worse on layouts with more turns vs more straightaways.
 

ENA2

Member
The incline (hill) is on the upper right side of the view. - just above the pond on the right - The 2-mile course does not come close to using it. I would think that the 5K would use it and an ideal place to start the 5K would be on that side as well. Maybe the 5K and the 2-mile do not start on the same side. It does not matter to me, as long as we are racing there and everyone has to cover the same ground.

I was there and it is potentially better than NTR and could be what Scioto Downs once was. For the kids, it is THE STATE MEET COURSE... it's gonna be great. 90% of our kids think that NTR was the best ever just like 90% of the old-timers think that Scioto was the best experience ever.
 

CC Track Fan

Active member
No disagreement from me.



Based on where the starting line is drawn, and where the course encompasses the starting line, I took some measurements on my computer screen. Along the angle of the starting line, I measured from where the line would hit the course at each end if the starting line spanned that entire interior section. I also measured from 1 end of the turf field to the other. I could use those 2 measurements to create a proportion. I assumed the turf field spanned a minimum of 120 yards and could use that figure to set up a 2nd proportion. A little cross multiplication of the 2 proportions is all that's needed to estimate the length of the starting line. I come up with a minimum estimate of 100.8 yards. If all starting line recommendations are followed, how many teams can fit along the starting line? What if the request is granted to allow 185 runners in the race? Is there enough room to create additional boxes for the individual competitors, or will the boxes be narrower with runners starting 2 and 3 deep? I'm too tired to do those calculations right now. They might come out just fine.

Don't misunderstand me and think I'm advocating not holding the meet or anything like that based on what the starting line can or can't accommodate, but those are the types of details that must be taken into account and hopefully have already been considered when the powers that be discussed what the meet might look like this year. My school had a home meet a few weeks ago. Ordinarily, creating the starting line is no big deal after deciding where it will be. Enter 2020 and all the protocols and recommendations. Until sketching it out and spreading a tape measure along the ground to figure out how much length the starting boxes would occupy and how much to angle each one toward a point of convergence near the 1st turn (160m away in our case), I never realized how much space would be utilized in creating adequate starting boxes for so few teams.
The other question about start line will each individual runner have to be 6 feet from other runners on the start line or can they have up to 10 in one box?
 

Running Man 101

Active member
The other question about start line will each individual runner have to be 6 feet from other runners on the start line or can they have up to 10 in one box?
If they are following their own guidelines, then 6' apart for everyone. If that is lifted the 185 runner limit will be lifted as well. The 150 limit and spacing within the boxes has produced better overall starts IMHO.
 

polar panther

Well-known member
I will always believe that a great cross-country race can be run without a clock. No way a championship should be based on times. If it ever gets to that, let's just run a virtual meet at Milesplit and call it a day.
As a former runner from the ‘70’s, I have often said that running times in our day were always on the back burner compared to today. More was made of what place we finished and how that helped the team. We wanted to set PR’s too, but beating other runners was the focus
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
As a former runner from the ‘70’s, I have often said that running times in our day were always on the back burner compared to today. More was made of what place we finished and how that helped the team. We wanted to set PR’s too, but beating other runners was the focus
When I got to college, some guys on the team were talking about PR's. I had no idea what that meant. After a week or so, I got to be friends with some of the guys and asked one that grew up near me here in NE Ohio what a PR was. He didn't know either. We finally asked one of the guys who was talking about PR's and when he told us, I sort of laughed and said "who cares about that?" I thought it was the dumbest thing I'd ever heard.

I personally like courses with a lot of turns. That would have been to an advantage to me. I hated long straights. Turns and hills. The more the better.
 

polar panther

Well-known member
When I got to college, some guys on the team were talking about PR's. I had no idea what that meant. After a week or so, I got to be friends with some of the guys and asked one that grew up near me here in NE Ohio what a PR was. He didn't know either. We finally asked one of the guys who was talking about PR's and when he told us, I sort of laughed and said "who cares about that?" I thought it was the dumbest thing I'd ever heard.

I personally like courses with a lot of turns. That would have been to an advantage to me. I hated long straights. Turns and hills. The more the better.
Psycho,

Our coach use to care more about where we finished, and the time splits between our 1 thru 5, and 1 thru 7 runners. I used to tell the coach that our splits would be a lot better if our top runner would slow down. He knew I was joking and would laugh.
 
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