State Meet course

The State course was very wet today and flooded by the finish line. Plus, there are a number of light and poles in the pavement parking area. Not sure where the buses are going to park. You will not be able to run thru the parking lot from one point to another on the course.
 

LincolnXC

New member
We were wondering the exact same thing....where will the buses park?? Christmas lights everywhere.
Course is holding up with the rain. With the rain stop and wind picking up, it could dry out by Saturday
Should be interesting.
 

JAVMAN83

Active member
I compare this time of year to that of the Ides of March time...predictably unpredictable, frequently windy & cold, and rain not out of the question.
 

XCFan98

Member
This spot must end as the state course. It is not fair to the kids that the worst course they run all year is the State Meet. The terrain, the flooding, the parking, the whole vibe, it has to go! Anywhere but here. It is not a championship course, and with the Christmas lights, the parking issues, and more. It has to end.
 

Rohbino

Well-known member
maybe ohsaa can find a nice industrial park to have the race in next year, I propose running through a closed Ford Factory in Lorain
It can be done. I once rode a bike through a waste disposal plant south of Columbus while riding the annual Tour of the Scioto River Valley. TOSRV is an up and back bike ride from Columbus to Portsmouth on route 104. There was construction on Rt 104 so there was a detour that literally went inside of a waste disposal building. It was nice and fragrant.

Speaking of - a lot of that waste disposal land south of Columbus has or will be repurposed. Maybe the state course could get a new home somewhere down there.
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
It can be done. I once rode a bike through a waste disposal plant south of Columbus while riding the annual Tour of the Scioto River Valley. TOSRV is an up and back bike ride from Columbus to Portsmouth on route 104. There was construction on Rt 104 so there was a detour that literally went inside of a waste disposal building. It was nice and fragrant.

Speaking of - a lot of that waste disposal land south of Columbus has or will be repurposed. Maybe the state course could get a new home somewhere down there.
I already proposed the golf course they shut down because of the methane. It's perfect. Well, except for a little methane issue, but it's one day.
The Pheonix


can't get a better location.

Someone from Bowling Green run over the the golf course and see how it's holding up. I still think that it could be a great place.
 

SMARTY22

Well-known member
This spot must end as the state course. It is not fair to the kids that the worst course they run all year is the State Meet. The terrain, the flooding, the parking, the whole vibe, it has to go! Anywhere but here. It is not a championship course, and with the Christmas lights, the parking issues, and more. It has to end.
Great passionate and accurate post. The State Meet/Game for Any sport should not be at the worst site/venue that the sport has to offer. OHSAA has a Contract/Agreement with this place for how long?
 
My OATCCC connection that told me about the Christmas decorations a few months ago said OHSAA learned about the decorations too late to move this year but was looking hard for next year. He also said OHSAA has reservations about a few of the sites others have mentioned as possibilities.
 

SMARTY22

Well-known member
My OATCCC connection that told me about the Christmas decorations a few months ago said OHSAA learned about the decorations too late to move this year but was looking hard for next year. He also said OHSAA has reservations about a few of the sites others have mentioned as possibilities.
Having reservations about a few other sites but will hold the State Meet at a half flooded place with Christmas crap everywhere. That’s hilarious 😂
 

Rohbino

Well-known member
What's up with all of the early Christmas stuff? It used to be that Christmas stuff didn't start appearing until a few weeks after Halloween. I was in Costco a few weeks ago and there was Christmas stuff out already. Holiday brews like Sierra Nevada Celebration Ale, Great Lakes Christmas Ale, and Thirsty Dog 12 Dogs of Christmas, that once had really narrow window of maybe a few weeks to pick up or I would be out of luck of scoring any, began showing up on shelves a few weeks ago. It's exhausting and I'm not even a Christian! Christmas lights at the state XC site - that's classic.
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
What's up with all of the early Christmas stuff? It used to be that Christmas stuff didn't start appearing until a few weeks after Halloween. I was in Costco a few weeks ago and there was Christmas stuff out already. Holiday brews like Sierra Nevada Celebration Ale, Great Lakes Christmas Ale, and Thirsty Dog 12 Dogs of Christmas, that once had really narrow window of maybe a few weeks to pick up or I would be out of luck of scoring any, began showing up on shelves a few weeks ago. It's exhausting and I'm not even a Christian! Christmas lights at the state XC site - that's classic.
It's the war on Christmas! Where have you been?
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
The upsetting part of the whole NTR era is that there is potential there to make it a much better place to have the state meet. However, nothing has been done to improve anything or make it conducive to holding what should be the best CC meet in the country. Over 10,000 people there to watch a CC meet and we can't make it great? It's not hard. The kids participating did not just set their goals to being kinda ok. Why can't we do something to make a facility that is much better than it needs to be. Make it impressive and above and beyond.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
It can be done. I once rode a bike through a waste disposal plant south of Columbus while riding the annual Tour of the Scioto River Valley. TOSRV is an up and back bike ride from Columbus to Portsmouth on route 104. There was construction on Rt 104 so there was a detour that literally went inside of a waste disposal building. It was nice and fragrant.

Speaking of - a lot of that waste disposal land south of Columbus has or will be repurposed. Maybe the state course could get a new home somewhere down there.
There are enough golf courses going out of business these days. Any hope of turning any of them into an XC course?

The thing I always come back to is: How many places are there that have the land for a course that won't suck while also having adequate parking?
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
What's up with all of the early Christmas stuff? It used to be that Christmas stuff didn't start appearing until a few weeks after Halloween. I was in Costco a few weeks ago and there was Christmas stuff out already. Holiday brews like Sierra Nevada Celebration Ale, Great Lakes Christmas Ale, and Thirsty Dog 12 Dogs of Christmas, that once had really narrow window of maybe a few weeks to pick up or I would be out of luck of scoring any, began showing up on shelves a few weeks ago. It's exhausting and I'm not even a Christian! Christmas lights at the state XC site - that's classic.
My favorite holiday of the year, Thanksgiving, is the most underrated holiday of the year. Outside of selling a few turkeys and a few more taters and cans of cranberry sauce, there's no money to be made on it vs. Halloween candy & costumes and anything & everything associated with Christmas. Christmas is easily my least favorite holiday.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
The upsetting part of the whole NTR era is that there is potential there to make it a much better place to have the state meet. However, nothing has been done to improve anything or make it conducive to holding what should be the best CC meet in the country. Over 10,000 people there to watch a CC meet and we can't make it great? It's not hard. The kids participating did not just set their goals to being kinda ok. Why can't we do something to make a facility that is much better than it needs to be. Make it impressive and above and beyond.
I was pretty high on the place that 1st year but quickly came to realize it's a dump. However, I also can't offer up anything better at this time.
 

JAVMAN83

Active member
Befitting the weather upon us and the Christmas decor, maybe some reindeer will grace the course during the state meet? :)
 

Supertramp

New member
I went up to see National Trail today. It's not good.

The course: Definitely soft and muddy. Several places with standing water. The worst spots seemed to be by the starting area. But all in all, not terrible considering the rain. It could be a mess by the time we get to the last race of the day though. The good news is that the runners themselves should have decent footing and fair conditions (or fair for NTR standards) and that's what really matters, at the end of the day. However...

The facility: Unacceptable. All of the traditional bus parking and the best spectator areas outside of the grandstands are completely closed off so nobody touches the Christmas light show. Could you not have waited until after the first weekend of November for your drive-through Christmas light show? The meet is going to be almost unwatchable unless you are in the stands (which are average at best on the east side, and falling apart on the west side) but my biggest concern: parking.

Where are they going to put cars and busses if they have closed off almost all of the paved parking? What were they thinking?

National Trail Raceway has never been ideal. The past two years have proven that this venue is absolutely unacceptable and unable to host a championship cross-country meet. In a lot of ways, this year is even worse than last year.

Last year with the rain and the historic rainfall totals, hard to avoid what happened. Still, never should have been at National Trail in the first place, but aside from that, nothing anyone really could have done about it.

But this year? No excuses. National Trail should have known what they were doing. OHSAA should not be at the mercy of negligent and uncaring venue owners, who care more about a Christmas display being up in October than hosting the State Cross-Country meet.

This year is the last straw. It has to move somewhere else. National Trail Raceway is an absolute and total failure as a championship cross-country course. OHSAA and OATCCC need to fix this.
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
Sort of funny how they can have all that temporary fencing in place for the X-mas displays, but we can't have any of that out on the course so we can watch races better. I had some real problems a few years ago getting out of the place and back home. It took me more than an extra hour. Most years I've been ok, but I'm dreading this year and hoping it's not a miserable experience. Not sure what everyone else has experienced, but I know people that have stopped going because of the venue. People who would go even though they don't have a team to support that have just decided not to go anymore.
 

VFL

New member
I went up to see National Trail today. It's not good.

The course: Definitely soft and muddy. Several places with standing water. The worst spots seemed to be by the starting area. But all in all, not terrible considering the rain. It could be a mess by the time we get to the last race of the day though. The good news is that the runners themselves should have decent footing and fair conditions (or fair for NTR standards) and that's what really matters, at the end of the day. However...

The facility: Unacceptable. All of the traditional bus parking and the best spectator areas outside of the grandstands are completely closed off so nobody touches the Christmas light show. Could you not have waited until after the first weekend of November for your drive-through Christmas light show? The meet is going to be almost unwatchable unless you are in the stands (which are average at best on the east side, and falling apart on the west side) but my biggest concern: parking.

Where are they going to put cars and busses if they have closed off almost all of the paved parking? What were they thinking?

National Trail Raceway has never been ideal. The past two years have proven that this venue is absolutely unacceptable and unable to host a championship cross-country meet. In a lot of ways, this year is even worse than last year.

Last year with the rain and the historic rainfall totals, hard to avoid what happened. Still, never should have been at National Trail in the first place, but aside from that, nothing anyone really could have done about it.

But this year? No excuses. National Trail should have known what they were doing. OHSAA should not be at the mercy of negligent and uncaring venue owners, who care more about a Christmas display being up in October than hosting the State Cross-Country meet.

This year is the last straw. It has to move somewhere else. National Trail Raceway is an absolute and total failure as a championship cross-country course. OHSAA and OATCCC need to fix this.
I 100% agree with what you are saying but you are preaching to the choir! If anything is ever going to change than all these coaches, retired coaches and parents need to talk with their school AD's and begin asking/demanding for a change.

I'd also suggest at the regional coaches association meetings and the XC Coaches Clinic in two weeks that some sort of petition be started and presented to the leaders who make decisions. Start with the power conferences, traditional state teams, etc.

There's no sense wasting our time typing and complaining if we aren't willing to step up and lead the change! I'll be the first person to sign, show up, etc. Tell me when and where to be!
 

Supertramp

New member
So before somebody chimes in with the "The OHSAA doesn't have a better option" argument, I wanted to provide a few ideas.

1.) Find another suitable course. Lots of options have been given. Cedarville, Clark County Fair Grounds, OSU Golf Course, etc. Like others have said before, any "reservations" people have about many of these options cannot outweigh the current status of National Trail.

2.) Rotate the Regional sites as State meet sites. This would mean that every 4 years, a regional site would double as the state meet site the next week. Each regional site has experience hosting a meet of similar size and caliber as the state meet. Obviously, the course could be in rough shape after a wet or muddy year at regionals. But Terre Haute has hosted NXR the week before the NCAA Championships before. This would also give you 3 emergency options, which is a better alternative to postponing the meet altogether. And it would move the state meet around more, hopefully helping to spread the sport to people who otherwise wouldn't attend the state meet.

3.) Move the State Meet to Troy. People have mentioned the Cedarville course as an option, but I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Troy before though. This meet has an excellent atmosphere and years upon years of experience in hosting a high caliber meet. Like the other regional sites, it's easy to block off and charge for admission, traffic flow is good, parking is great, and the course and atmosphere are excellent. It obviously is not as central to the State as Hebron, but the Troy area offers a lot more than Hebron does. It would only be an extra hour for people coming from Youngstown and Pickerington, but just as close to Tiffin as NTR is. The Cedarville course could become the Southwest region site. And there are several options in the Dayton area that could replace the district site.

4.) Move the State Meet to Pickerington. Pretty much for all of the same reasons I mentioned about Troy.

Bottom line, there are plenty of other great options. Continuing at NTR cannot be one of them.
 

Rohbino

Well-known member
Supertramp,

For the most part, these are pretty good suggestions. I'll add a few of my comments in blue, below.

So before somebody chimes in with the "The OHSAA doesn't have a better option" argument, I wanted to provide a few ideas.

1.) Find another suitable course. Lots of options have been given. Cedarville, Clark County Fair Grounds, OSU Golf Course, etc. Like others have said before, any "reservations" people have about many of these options cannot outweigh the current status of National Trail.

Cedarville is a great course but I've mentioned elsewhere that getting to it from routes 42 or 68 from I-70 or rt 35 off of 71 and through Xenia to 42 would be a traffic nightmare. It's just too far off of the major interstates. I love that course, though.

Bowling Green has been mentioned. It would be a great spot. It would favor NW Ohio for accessibility but look how often the state football championship are in NE Ohio. Location isn't a big deal, IMHO, and it is next to I-75.


2.) Rotate the Regional sites as State meet sites. This would mean that every 4 years, a regional site would double as the state meet site the next week. Each regional site has experience hosting a meet of similar size and caliber as the state meet. Obviously, the course could be in rough shape after a wet or muddy year at regionals. But Terre Haute has hosted NXR the week before the NCAA Championships before. This would also give you 3 emergency options, which is a better alternative to postponing the meet altogether. And it would move the state meet around more, hopefully helping to spread the sport to people who otherwise wouldn't attend the state meet.

This, I don't like. Someone will always claim that someone else has an advantage due to course familiarity or whatever.

3.) Move the State Meet to Troy. People have mentioned the Cedarville course as an option, but I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Troy before though. This meet has an excellent atmosphere and years upon years of experience in hosting a high caliber meet. Like the other regional sites, it's easy to block off and charge for admission, traffic flow is good, parking is great, and the course and atmosphere are excellent. It obviously is not as central to the State as Hebron, but the Troy area offers a lot more than Hebron does. It would only be an extra hour for people coming from Youngstown and Pickerington, but just as close to Tiffin as NTR is. The Cedarville course could become the Southwest region site. And there are several options in the Dayton area that could replace the district site.

Troy wouldn't be bad but with the state meet I doubt that people would be allowed to stand up on the levee and look down on the plain as they do for the regional meet. Course access would be restricted a lot more than the regional meet. I would bet that the only glimpse of the runners would be when they're up on top of the levee. Parking isn't bad not nearly as much as NTR.

Cedarville would make a great region site and I wouldn't even mind if it is moved there anyway. Indian Riffle Park in Kettering would make a good district site (one of my favorite courses anywhere) and the other SW districts would stay at VOA.


4.) Move the State Meet to Pickerington. Pretty much for all of the same reasons I mentioned about Troy.

Bottom line, there are plenty of other great options. Continuing at NTR cannot be one of them.

Does Pickerington have as much parking as Troy? The same reason that Troy might not be a great venue would probably also rule out Boardman HS and that would be parking. Although I do think that Troy probably has more parking than Boardman, the SW Ohio folks would moan about Boardman being too far away.
I also mentioned earlier about having different divisions on different days. Who says that all divisions need to run on the same day? Have D2 & D3 on one day and D1 on the other day. Friday, Saturday, or Sunday could be used. If there are concerns about a selected venue having limited parking, or accessibility and traffic like Cedarville, hosting on different days would be a way to alleviate that. Other sports have championships on different days and sometimes even different venues. Why couldn't XC do the same? Some people like to be able to see all of the races and might not like this alternative but, again, it would still be better than NTR.
 
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OATCCC rep said Cedarville was considered when NTR was chosen but they said they had their own schedule and team to worry about and had no interest in managing or helping. There are concerns with some of the other sites including potential conflict of interest, possible meet managers who have publically bashed OHSAA even after being asked not to, and other glitches. I really do not want to get deeper because I did not hear any of these things first hand. I assume they go back to Dale Gabor's interactions and perceptions but don't know even that for sure. My point is there is a lot more that goes into a state meet site than the course alone at least in OHSAA's eyes.
 

Supertramp

New member
Supertramp,

For the most part, these are pretty good suggestions. I'll add a few of my comments in blue, below.



I also mentioned earlier about having different divisions on different days. Who says that all divisions need to run on the same day? Have D2 & D3 on one day and D1 on the other day. Friday, Saturday, or Sunday could be used. If there are concerns about a selected venue having limited parking, or accessibility and traffic like Cedarville, hosting on different days would be a way to alleviate that. Other sports have championships on different days and sometimes even different venues. Why couldn't XC do the same? Some people like to be able to see all of the races and might not like this alternative but, again, it would still be better than NTR.
I appreciate your thoughts. Yes, by rotating the course, I am sure people would complain about the advantage that the teams who ran the meet the week before had. Very fair points there.

I am not very familiar with the Pickerington Region facilities, so I cannot comment, but from a Google Maps view, it looks possible to me, certainly not much. less space than NTR if any.

At Troy, there were several lots at the Junior High that were essentially empty at the regional this year. This might have been due to poor weather, but still, hop on Google Maps and you can see that there are several lots nearby that can be used. Everything at Hobart Arena, the High School, the Junior High, and even a church and funeral home nearby that I almost guarantee would let people park there if you asked. And aside from that, plenty of street parking and other options across the river, and multiple entry points.

Cedarville works great if you spread out the meets. You don't even have to do different days, Why not have D1 boys and girls at 10/10:30 AM, D2 at 1/1:30 PM, and D3 at 4:00/4:30 PM? (Or something like that)
Most everyone would have 2+ hours to clear out before the next race, while anyone who wanted to watch the races all day, could do so.

Another thing that frustrates me is the complaint about Cedarville's access roads. How is NTR much different? Both courses have only one road to reach them from.

Every option has it's negatives, but like you said, it would still be better than NTR.
 

CatchKokopelli

New member
Throwing an option out there - Hartford Fairgrounds. A meet was hosted in August this year to explore the development of a championship style course.

Historic grandstands, 30 portable bleachers that can be placed anywhere on course, a 1, 2 and 3.1 mile that all coincide at the same location. The course, unfortunately, is flat, but with the support of the Hartford fair staff we have tons of options to make improvements.

Not to discourage the FinishtTiming course - but an out and back makes coaching pretty difficult. Spectators deserve a course they can get near and cheer on. Spectators deserve the opportunity to park and get into a meet ASAP! We would have 3-4 gates open and a dedicated bus entry point and spectator entry point.

If interested in knowing more we will be posting info on Athletic.net for next year's August 29th meet. Results can be found on https://www.athletic.net/CrossCountry/meet/157245/info

 
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