State Finals

cincysports4

Well-known member
Friday:
1pm Seton vs Strongsville
4pm Cincinnati Country Day vs Ottawa-Glandorf
7pm Waynesville vs Copley


Predictions?
 

cincysports4

Well-known member
Strongsville is really good defensively, and has some players who can matchup well in the midfield and up top.
CCD is just on a different level and wins by 2+ goals.
Waynesville as well.

Strongsville 2-1
CCD 3-0
Waynesville 2-0
 

Pundit

New member
State Finals Recap

Seton 1-0 over Strongsville


Goal came off of a defensive mistake (Sville player should’ve knocked the ball out of bounds giving up a CK but allowed the ball to go across her body and didn’t see the oncoming attacker who passed it into the goal). Both teams had their chances and the referees did a nice job controlling the game, calling it evenly, and not impacting the outcome of the game.


CCD 1-0 over Ottawa-Glandorf

Goal came off a defender who accidentally knocked the ball down to a wide open forward who shot it past the GK. Both teams had their chances especially a few high quality looks by OG. The referees did a nice job controlling the game, calling it evenly, and not impacting the outcome of the game.


Copley 1-0 over Waynesville

Best game of the day hands down. Both teams utilized the entire width of the field, looked to possess the ball, and played quickly. It looked more like a college game than a high school game. Waynesville definitely gets the award for the most shots directly to the GK. The only downside of this game was the center referee. The game was way above her and she missed a lot. Even the broadcast announcers were commenting on all of the fouls she missed including ones right in front of her including a strike causing a bloody nose. Would definitely like to know how she was chosen to officiate a state finals. She definitely needs to be re-assessed and shouldn’t officiate another high level game until she improves a lot.
 
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4Runner

Member
The ref in the Waynesville game…definitely WAY over her head. Both are great teams but it could have gone very differently had she controlled it
 

5x26

Active member
Copley is a great team. We played each other well. An unfortunate (for us) flick to redirect a ball played in and a couple stellar saves by the Copley keeper was the difference. Terrible officiating again. I didn’t think it could get much worse than the state semi final that was absolutely awful but I was wrong. Sucks to have such impact on a game made by those not playing the game but Copley was still a great team. It’s hard to win 30 games straight playing great competition, a point proven last night.
 
.....sounds like some of the 'experts' on this thread need to take the OHSAA Referee Course, and go replace those of us they think do such a lousy job. :rolleyes: #PutUpOrShutUp
 

Pundit

New member
MJ__Soccer Ref....I have taken the USSF and the OHSAA referee courses. I'm a former Grade 6 referee that reffed College, HS, and USSF games for over 10 years before choosing to go in a different direction. So, I believe I can fairly evaluate other referees especially since I know the intricacies of reffing. Let's start with the mechanics of the center referee in the Division II State Finals. Her angles were poor (e.g. she was in front of midfielders numerous times and had to move out of their way as they dribbled towards her, she had to move out of the way of a ball because she was standing in a passing lane, she was hit by the ball because she was standing in front of a midfielder in their passing lane, on a CK she was on the same side of the field as the linesman on the end line when she should've been on the other side of the field, etc.) and she missed numerous fouls that were right in front of her. Having seen those referees officiate numerous times, I am really curious to know how they were selected to officiate a state finals game since I consider them average referees at best and since I've observed higher quality referees than them. I challenge you to go back and watch the Division II Final on the NFHS website and assess her for yourself. While watching the game listen to the knowledgeable broadcast commentators in their assessment of her. They were complimentary of the referees of the first two finals and were very critical of the referee crew in the final game.
 
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MJ__Soccer Ref....I have taken the USSF and the OHSAA referee courses. I'm a former Grade 6 referee that reffed College, HS, and USSF games for over 10 years. So, I believe I can fairly evaluate other referees especially since I know the intricacies of reffing. Let's start with the mechanics of the center referee in the Division II State Finals. Her angles were poor (e.g. she was in front of midfielders numerous times and had to move out of their way as they dribbled towards her, she had to move out of the way off a ball because the was standing in a passing lane and was eventually hit by the ball because she was standing in front of a midfielder in a passing lane, on a CK she was on the same side of the field as the linesman on the end line when she should've been on the other side of the field, etc.) and she missed numerous fouls that were right in front of her. I challenge you to go back and watch the Division II Final on the NFHS website and assess her for yourself. While watching the game listen to the knowledgeable broadcast commentators in their assessment of her. They were complimentary of the referees of the first two finals and were very critical of the referee crew in the final game.
Where on the NFHS website is the game? Looked around, couldn't find it......I would like to watch it. Thanks for the feedback......and may I ask, why aren't you still refereeing?
 

Pundit

New member
https://www.nfhsnetwork.com/ You will need to subscribe for at least one month to watch the finals. Once you have subscribed then, use their filters to find the state final games "on demand." As for reffing, I went in a different direction and didn't have time for it anymore. I may referee again in the future to give back to the game but, I don't have time for it right now. I'm curious, do they still require the OHSAA soccer referees to pass a fitness test? My guess is no due to the referee shortage and since I've seen a lot of referees that I know couldn't pass the fitness test.
 

5x26

Active member
.....sounds like some of the 'experts' on this thread need to take the OHSAA Referee Course, and go replace those of us they think do such a lousy job. :rolleyes: #PutUpOrShutUp
I am a ref, I have ref'd every tier of top level club soccer. I've ref'd collegiate games.

There are plenty of good to great ref's. We have for the most part run into many of them through the playoffs. We had 4 incredible centers in tourney play. What happened in Columbus in the state semi finals and the finals was unacceptable. what makes it even worse is the "good ol' boy" network that was obviously in play and so often is. I can say this because I'm part of it. This misconception that you should not call ref's actions into question is absurd. They/we are pay'd to do a job. Follow the rules of the game and protect the players. The lack of accountability and assessments is unacceptable. the quality of ref's in a state final is not acceptable. Our crew was bad. The 4th ref in these games should be an assessor. The Center and at least one of the AR's for the CCD/OG game were also not acceptable. Aside from poor mechanics, the AR was physically unable to keep up. 2x in the 2nd half the OG forward was offside and the AR was lagging 10-15 yards behind. It didn't cost them but it could have.

Parents/Coaches/Players get upset most often at refs when they don't actual make calls they should. Tripping, grabbing, going through a player from behind (the lack off calling this is insane in HS) , obvious offside called or not called etc...You get the occasional arm chair parent who gets upset with trifling, shoulder to shoulder, losing a hard tackle or calling a throw in wrong. But from what I've seen it's the non calls from fouls that prevents scoring or prevents injury that causes the most strife on the sidelines. So the reality of it is......Do better. Follow the rules. Be consistent. Be fair. I honestly believe it would reduce the ref abuse if the ref's were better. In the last 4 month's I had a center while being an AR tell me he would not follow the new handling rules because he doesn't agree with the changes, An AR while I was pregaming as a center tell me he didn't understand the offside rules when I explained them. A Center tell my daughter yes it was a foul in the penalty area, but not enough of a foul to call it. (She was tripped and pushed with 2 hands from behind while driving to goal). Another tell her that he see's all the fouls she's taking and will keep paying attention, if it continues he'll call it. I have so many more crazy examples I don't want to ramble. We are not above being questioned. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
 

Pundit

New member
Well said 5x26!!!! Please share those comments with the OHSAA soccer commissioner and their officiating staff. The system definitely needs to be fixed or at least improved.
 

belied dat

Active member
To be fair to these Ohio referees, if anyone keeps up with WoSo/girl's soccer around the country, there are tons of issues with the physicality that is permitted that should not be permitted. I hear and see it all the time, any Twitter search (which is easy to do) can reveal loads of videos at any given time that people upload that show very poor challenges that should be called, but aren't.

This is more prevalent with the female side than the male side. For sure. No idea why, but it's that way currently.
 

5x26

Active member
To be fair to these Ohio referees, if anyone keeps up with WoSo/girl's soccer around the country, there are tons of issues with the physicality that is permitted that should not be permitted. I hear and see it all the time, any Twitter search (which is easy to do) can reveal loads of videos at any given time that people upload that show very poor challenges that should be called, but aren't.

This is more prevalent with the female side than the male side. For sure. No idea why, but it's that way currently.
Agreed and with the alarming increase in ACL injury among the late teens female soccer players it really should be the complete opposite of allowing poor challenges.
 

hammer89

Well-known member
https://www.nfhsnetwork.com/ You will need to subscribe for at least one month to watch the finals. Once you have subscribed then, use their filters to find the state final games "on demand." As for reffing, I went in a different direction and didn't have time for it anymore. I may referee again in the future to give back to the game but, I don't have time for it right now. I'm curious, do they still require the OHSAA soccer referees to pass a fitness test? My guess is no due to the referee shortage and since I've seen a lot of referees that I know couldn't pass the fitness test.
“Do they still require a fitness test”

OHSAA Has never required a fitness test for any sport.
 

hammer89

Well-known member
I am a ref, I have ref'd every tier of top level club soccer. I've ref'd collegiate games.

There are plenty of good to great ref's. We have for the most part run into many of them through the playoffs. We had 4 incredible centers in tourney play. What happened in Columbus in the state semi finals and the finals was unacceptable. what makes it even worse is the "good ol' boy" network that was obviously in play and so often is. I can say this because I'm part of it. This misconception that you should not call ref's actions into question is absurd. They/we are pay'd to do a job. Follow the rules of the game and protect the players. The lack of accountability and assessments is unacceptable. the quality of ref's in a state final is not acceptable. Our crew was bad. The 4th ref in these games should be an assessor. The Center and at least one of the AR's for the CCD/OG game were also not acceptable. Aside from poor mechanics, the AR was physically unable to keep up. 2x in the 2nd half the OG forward was offside and the AR was lagging 10-15 yards behind. It didn't cost them but it could have.

Parents/Coaches/Players get upset most often at refs when they don't actual make calls they should. Tripping, grabbing, going through a player from behind (the lack off calling this is insane in HS) , obvious offside called or not called etc...You get the occasional arm chair parent who gets upset with trifling, shoulder to shoulder, losing a hard tackle or calling a throw in wrong. But from what I've seen it's the non calls from fouls that prevents scoring or prevents injury that causes the most strife on the sidelines. So the reality of it is......Do better. Follow the rules. Be consistent. Be fair. I honestly believe it would reduce the ref abuse if the ref's were better. In the last 4 month's I had a center while being an AR tell me he would not follow the new handling rules because he doesn't agree with the changes, An AR while I was pregaming as a center tell me he didn't understand the offside rules when I explained them. A Center tell my daughter yes it was a foul in the penalty area, but not enough of a foul to call it. (She was tripped and pushed with 2 hands from behind while driving to goal). Another tell her that he see's all the fouls she's taking and will keep paying attention, if it continues he'll call it. I have so many more crazy examples I don't want to ramble. We are not above being questioned. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I don’t think there’s a “good ol boys” network when it comes to selecting the assignments. The state soccer assigner pretty much goes by whoever got the most points in the voting process.

the voting process itself is also as clean as it can be. Four categories with four separate voting blocks so no one block has too much power/influence.

what about the process would you change, specifically?
 

5x26

Active member
Gillogy should have been good on paper, but it was just not good. They do not hold these ref's to enough of a standard. Anyone who watches that game with a shred of knowledge will tell you that there were major issues. From mechanics to control of the game and so much more in-between. There may not a good ol boy network with assignment for this, but there is with accountability. During any assessment I have been given direct feedback on my actions, both after the half and after the game with the good and the bad. This should happen with the 4th in all these games. This is a group of fist bumping, a** slapping, "great work" buddy boy's (and girl's). You have a job to do, and so do the AR's. Freaking do it. So many missed hard dangerous fouls from behind and literally directly Infront of the entire crew. I get it in a U11 local league with a just learning the game crew. But not in this situation. These games mean somthing to all the players, the coaches and many of the families. The 4th got dressed down by the head coach and nothing. It's no wonder the players were so disrespectful. The forward for Copley literally punched the CB for Waynesville in the mouth, drew blood and caused the Waynesville CB to leave the game it happened 5 yards in front of Gillogy. She called the foul, and eventually carded her but not for the punch it was for dissent on the called foul. The punch should have been a serious misconduct and a subsequent red card. After her yellow she had another reckless foul, that simply imposed a frown and a finger. It was happening all game. Vanishing spray and an ACME Tornado don't make you a good ref. Controlling the game and protecting the players through the laws does. I will say she made a great call not calling a shoulder charge from Copley to win the ball, that most ref's likely would have since it sent the Waynesville girl flying on her back, but then totally allowed the same player to intentionally trip a defender from behind to create space. I'm not the sanctioning body but they need to do better than this. And you can't have AR's that can't even begin to keep up with the pace of play. Ref's make mistakes all the time. Look at the NCAA and NFL that have had to come out and say "yeah the refs got it wrong" It's ok. I make mistakes too, but I own that. But not this many and nothing as egregious as these were. And we should never act as though the referees are above warranted criticism.
 

coachg

Active member
Gillogy should have been good on paper, but it was just not good. They do not hold these ref's to enough of a standard. Anyone who watches that game with a shred of knowledge will tell you that there were major issues. From mechanics to control of the game and so much more in-between. There may not a good ol boy network with assignment for this, but there is with accountability. During any assessment I have been given direct feedback on my actions, both after the half and after the game with the good and the bad. This should happen with the 4th in all these games. This is a group of fist bumping, a** slapping, "great work" buddy boy's (and girl's). You have a job to do, and so do the AR's. Freaking do it. So many missed hard dangerous fouls from behind and literally directly Infront of the entire crew. I get it in a U11 local league with a just learning the game crew. But not in this situation. These games mean somthing to all the players, the coaches and many of the families. The 4th got dressed down by the head coach and nothing. It's no wonder the players were so disrespectful. The forward for Copley literally punched the CB for Waynesville in the mouth, drew blood and caused the Waynesville CB to leave the game it happened 5 yards in front of Gillogy. She called the foul, and eventually carded her but not for the punch it was for dissent on the called foul. The punch should have been a serious misconduct and a subsequent red card. After her yellow she had another reckless foul, that simply imposed a frown and a finger. It was happening all game. Vanishing spray and an ACME Tornado don't make you a good ref. Controlling the game and protecting the players through the laws does. I will say she made a great call not calling a shoulder charge from Copley to win the ball, that most ref's likely would have since it sent the Waynesville girl flying on her back, but then totally allowed the same player to intentionally trip a defender from behind to create space. I'm not the sanctioning body but they need to do better than this. And you can't have AR's that can't even begin to keep up with the pace of play. Ref's make mistakes all the time. Look at the NCAA and NFL that have had to come out and say "yeah the refs got it wrong" It's ok. I make mistakes too, but I own that. But not this many and nothing as egregious as these were. And we should never act as though the referees are above warranted criticism.
Very well said. As a referee also I dislike the attitude that we cant say anything about another referee in a professional manner that is laid out like you and Pundit laid out. You didn't call names or put them down you simply criticked them with your honest opinion and that is something they can learn from. To bad for Waynesville loss I am sure they will be back there next year with one of my favorite players. :p
 

hammer89

Well-known member
Gillogy should have been good on paper, but it was just not good. They do not hold these ref's to enough of a standard. Anyone who watches that game with a shred of knowledge will tell you that there were major issues. From mechanics to control of the game and so much more in-between. There may not a good ol boy network with assignment for this, but there is with accountability. During any assessment I have been given direct feedback on my actions, both after the half and after the game with the good and the bad. This should happen with the 4th in all these games. This is a group of fist bumping, a** slapping, "great work" buddy boy's (and girl's). You have a job to do, and so do the AR's. Freaking do it. So many missed hard dangerous fouls from behind and literally directly Infront of the entire crew. I get it in a U11 local league with a just learning the game crew. But not in this situation. These games mean somthing to all the players, the coaches and many of the families. The 4th got dressed down by the head coach and nothing. It's no wonder the players were so disrespectful. The forward for Copley literally punched the CB for Waynesville in the mouth, drew blood and caused the Waynesville CB to leave the game it happened 5 yards in front of Gillogy. She called the foul, and eventually carded her but not for the punch it was for dissent on the called foul. The punch should have been a serious misconduct and a subsequent red card. After her yellow she had another reckless foul, that simply imposed a frown and a finger. It was happening all game. Vanishing spray and an ACME Tornado don't make you a good ref. Controlling the game and protecting the players through the laws does. I will say she made a great call not calling a shoulder charge from Copley to win the ball, that most ref's likely would have since it sent the Waynesville girl flying on her back, but then totally allowed the same player to intentionally trip a defender from behind to create space. I'm not the sanctioning body but they need to do better than this. And you can't have AR's that can't even begin to keep up with the pace of play. Ref's make mistakes all the time. Look at the NCAA and NFL that have had to come out and say "yeah the refs got it wrong" It's ok. I make mistakes too, but I own that. But not this many and nothing as egregious as these were. And we should never act as though the referees are above warranted criticism.
Sure, I get all that, I’m just asking what specifically about the OHSAA assigning process you would change to improve it?
 

5x26

Active member
Sure, I get all that, I’m just asking what specifically about the OHSAA assigning process you would change to improve it?
I think it starts with the 4th in these regional and state final games being an assessor from outside the centers main area of work. And helping guide them. There are things that you can see from the sideline that a center misses or simply misunderstands. Having a quality support would go a long way. They all have headsets on so it's an easy in game correction or help for them. After that I don't know, but that just can't happen again. I do not feel like it was a malicious action on the centers part in this game or the state semi. But it wasn't good and that's not right. Having seen some exceptional refereeing in many other games leading up to it my hopes were very high for the state games.
 

hammer89

Well-known member
I think it starts with the 4th in these regional and state final games being an assessor from outside the centers main area of work. And helping guide them. There are things that you can see from the sideline that a center misses or simply misunderstands. Having a quality support would go a long way. They all have headsets on so it's an easy in game correction or help for them. After that I don't know, but that just can't happen again. I do not feel like it was a malicious action on the centers part in this game or the state semi. But it wasn't good and that's not right. Having seen some exceptional refereeing in many other games leading up to it my hopes were very high for the state games.
I think the system probably works, and the center in that game simply had a bad game, which unfortunately does occur even amongst those qualified for the position.

in terms of ARs who can’t keep up with play, that shouldn’t happen. Not at the state finals.
 

4Runner

Member
Maybe she was having a bad day, but on that day, in that game, it was legitimately over her head. Very fortunate for no serious injuries due to her bad day. I encourage anyone who hasn’t to watch the game. It’s clear
 
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