SLC-Where the talent is?

P

pied

Active member
Breakoff of the other subject. Interesting numbers in Texas Football magazine showing that SLC had the most D1 recruits over the last five years in the state of Texas.

Numbers are facts, but many times you need to go deeper. I will try and provide some brief color behind it. Note, my source is Dave Campbell's magazine. I have not seen an online version, but certainly many on here can check the accuracy.

First, It did surpsise me that SLC would be #1. SLC Dad pointed out, accurately that they had a big number, 10 in one year.

Second I think the thought among two posters, possibly more is that the players do not represent the highest level of recruit. I will look at the schools mentioned, as well as schools from the '07 class of other schools to compare. Because I am getting these numbers from the hard copy, I cannot link.

I also think that you get into sticky ground when you start to qualify D1 recruits. Is USC better than Stanford? Certainly more prestigious, but what about Stanford and Baylor? I don't want to make that distinction for this arguement.

I will post the raw data in a separate post. My experience is that it will likely be ugly, but certainly some will want to see it. If you have the magazine the table referenced is on page 48.
 
 
07 06 05 04 03 data
1 SLC 4 10 3 3 1 21
2 Allen 4 3 6 4 3 20
3 Carter 5 7 3 2 3 20
4 Westfield 0 5 6 3 6 20
5 Cedar Hill 11 2 3 3 0 19
6 La Marque 5 3 2 9 0 19
7 South Garland 3 6 6 4 0 19
8 Tyler Lee 2 2 3 5 7 19
9 Skyline 1 4 4 2 7 18
10 MacArthuur 3 4 8 2 1 18
11 De Soto 4 1 8 2 2 17
12 Garland 1 4 3 5 4 17
13 Lufkin 2 3 4 7 1 17
 
The 2005-06 team produced a HUGE number of D1 athletes (almost 1/2 of the 5 year total). If you look at the other years, SLC is way down the list. I think it's very tough to make the argument that SLC has the best athletic talent. I think they are not near the top of the list.


I looked at that as well. The other schools had similar "banner" years. Cedar Hill had 11. The one stand out that I recall(do not have the magazine at work) was LaMarque. I think the most they had in one year was 8.

The reasons SLC players are recruited -
1) They are proven winners
2) They have good football fundamentals
3) They are academically strong.

College coaches do not have to worry about them making adequate academically progress.


I notice you didn't include athletic talent on this list. I agree with you.



OK. First the numbers show SLC first w/21 over the last five years. Let’s get to the first argument.

“They had 21 over five years, but half was in one year, ‘06”.

True.

There are 13 teams on the table. Of the remaining 12 teams have years of:

7
9
11
9
7
7
8
8
7


Nine teams have other “big” years, one being better, the others being close. The most “consistent” school over the past five years has been Allen. They have had no more than 6 and no less than 3. Next on that scale would be Spring Westfield. They have had 2 6 scholarship years and one 7 year. They also have had one 0 year.
 
Taking out their banner year, as well as other team’s banner years(7+), would put them for 7th for the total behind:

Allen total-20 avg-5.0
Westfield total-20 avg-5.0
South Garland total-19 avg-4.75
Garland total-17 avg-4.25
Carter total-13 avg-3.25
Tyler Lee total-12 avg-3.0
SLC total-11 avg-2.75
Skyline total-11 avg-2.75
La Marque total-10 avg-2.5
MacArthur total-10 avg-2.5
Lufkin total-10 avg-2.5
DeSoto total-9 avg-2.25
Cedar Hill total-8 avg-2.0

Interesting that Garland who is next to last in the total, jumps up to #4 when banner years are removed. Allen/Westfield remain at the top and South Garland goes from #7 to #3. The rest are grouped pretty close. Carter edges SLC by tow players over four years.

Comments?
 
The next discussion centers around where the athletes play.

If I get around to it I might dig up old info, but this is last years schools(as reported in Texas Football). I do understand there are some juco and D2 schools. I am simply listing all printed.

SLC-UNT(2), Utah State, UNLV, Georgetwon(2)
Allen-Arkansas, Tulsa, Missouri, Navy
Carter Tulsa, Arkansas, Iowa State, Kansas, Central Arkansas, Abilene Christian((2)
Westfield-Tulsa, Arkansas, Iowa State, Kansas, Central Arkansas, Abilene Chritian((2)
Cedar Hill-Ok State, Baylor(3), Kansas, Rice, Tulsa(2), Nebraska, Buffalo
La Marque-Texas, Ok State, Kansas St, Houston(2)
South Garland-TCU, Ouchita Baptisit, Houston
Tyler Lee-TCU, Texas Tech, Abilene Christian
Skyline-Texas, La Tech, SFA, Ark Pine Bluff, Alcorn State, Jackson State, So Ark
MacArthur-LSU, Arkansas, TCU
DeSoto-Texas a$m(2), UTEP, SMU, Air Force
Garland-Texas, Navarro, Trinity Valley(2), Midwestern State(2)
Lufkin-Ok State, UNT, SFA


Hard to me to differentiate a bunch based on these schools, especially if you were to hide the HS.
 
----------------FYI I do realize I have posted several times, figured it might be easier to read-----------------
 
Pied - I think I know what you are trying to accomplish, but unfortunately I do not think you can measure everying thing in Dave Campbell Football.

The reasons SLC players are recruited -
1) They are proven winners
2) They have good football fundamentals
3) They are academically strong.

College coaches do not have to worry about them making adequate academically progress.
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I notice you didn't include athletic talent on this list. I agree with you.
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The above is an exerpt from a point I made.

The thing that you will not find in Dave Campbell Football is the kids that DID NOT get Div 1A scholarships. I will use my school to make my point. I think it has been established that Texas High has had some very good athletes in the past 8 years. I have seen some excellant athletes whose football careers ended after high school because they could not academically get into school or had some "character issues".

I am going to use two players from my high school to make an example. It was questionable if Nathan Vasher would ever play for the University of Texas because of his academic standing. But luckily, Texas saw the character of the kid and offered him a scholarship hoping he could gualify. Vasher was a very unusual talent recruited as an "athlete" not as a CB. His senior year of high school he made the All-State team not only as a defensive back but also on the same poll as a wide receiver. The kid was one of those a school offers hoping it will work out.

I think kids in a similiar boat that were offered hoping the academic side would work out were Mike Williams (DE) and Romonce Taylor. Schools will take a shot at exceptional talent.

Last year Texas High had a young man who signed with Rice - Brandon Tolbert. In my mind, I do not think he was the best linebacker on the team. But he got the scholarship and the other kid might be playing junior college ball. The difference was the academic side - Brandon was a good student. Brandon was a good athlete but had no "Star value" by the rating services.

I suspect Todd Dodge will tell you that the reason SLC had so many Div 1A scholarships was the college coaches know they do not have to worry about these kids. They come out of a schools which is highly competitive in the classroom as well as the athletic field. They are "safe" picks for a college recruiter. With the NCAA cracking down on low graduation rates and taking away scholarships for programs not emphasizing the "Student" side of Student-Athletes, some kids today that are very good athletes are passed over for "lesser" but still very good athletes.
 
SLC has not had the most talent in TX during its 5 year run.

SLC players benefit from playing on a high profile team. Take Blake Cantu for instance. He transfered from L.D. Bell to SLC. Would he have had an offer from Oregon had he played for L.D. Bell this past year? That would be a resounding No IMO! - However Blake is the same talent no matter which team he was playing for. A player will gain notoriety for playing with a championship team.
 
Bordertown said:
Pied - I think I know what you are trying to accomplish, but unfortunately I do not think you can measure everying thing in Dave Campbell Football.
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I am not really certain what my point is. I guess I do roll my eyese when people roll out the, "we win on desire and hard work and not talent". That is an arguement you hear from almost everyone. You heard it back in the day with the Permian crowd, you heard it from the Bay area guys with DLS, etc.

I am not certain I can agree with your examples, although I do understand your premise if that makes sense.

Rice was never going after Vasher and Texas was never going after Tolbert.

I think that many, second tier schools(which I shied away from in the original analysis) recruit players they know will come in and play. They also typically do not recruit the "super player". Defining and quantifying that becomes mroe difficult, but I do agree that it is reality.
 
RidgePride said:
SLC has not had the most talent in TX during its 5 year run.

SLC players benefit from playing on a high profile team. Take Blake Cantu for instance. He transfered from L.D. Bell to SLC. Would he have had an offer from Oregon had he played for L.D. Bell this past year? That would be a resounding No IMO! - However Blake is the same talent no matter which team he was playing for. A player will gain notoriety for playing with a championship team.
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Good question. What comes first, the chicken or the egg?


I think you can make compelling arguements both ways.

Personally I think Cantu still gets the offer. He was hardly an unknown quantity at Bell. He was the District newcomer of the year. These days, I think the college recruiters will find the talent no matter the team.

I think you can look at the list of the most # of D1 athletes. While you do have several of the "haves" in Texas, SLC/Lufkin/La MArque/Tyler Lee, several of these schools are far less succesful like Skyline and South Garland.

When Lewisville won their last title in '96, ZERO players went on to play ion college. They were at the heigth of 5A Texas at the time, with plenty of D1 guys around, just not that year.
 
pied said:
Good question. What comes first, the chicken or the egg?


I think you can make compelling arguements both ways.

Personally I think Cantu still gets the offer. He was hardly an unknown quantity at Bell. He was the District newcomer of the year. These days, I think the college recruiters will find the talent no matter the team.

I think you can look at the list of the most # of D1 athletes. While you do have several of the "haves" in Texas, SLC/Lufkin/La MArque/Tyler Lee, several of these schools are far less succesful like Skyline and South Garland.

When Lewisville won their last title in '96, ZERO players went on to play ion college. They were at the heigth of 5A Texas at the time, with plenty of D1 guys around, just not that year.
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Players are overlooked all the time. There are players who do not get scholarships that could play big time D1. Then there are also guys that cannot make the grades so they don't get scholies. Playing for a school like SLC ensures that your talents are noticed. Those players from SLC that went to like a Rice-SMU type school may not have received those Scholies if they were in a different school. I think Cantu eventually would get a scholarship if he stayed at Bell, but it may have been to a Rice type school.
 
RidgePride said:
Players are overlooked all the time. There are players who do not get scholarships that could play big time D1. Then there are also guys that cannot make the grades so they don't get scholies. Playing for a school like SLC ensures that your talents are noticed. Those players from SLC that went to like a Rice-SMU type school may not have received those Scholies if they were in a different school. I think Cantu eventually would get a scholarship if he stayed at Bell, but it may have been to a Rice type school.
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Perhaps, but I think the days of great players with no known issues(grades/character issues/etc.) are pretty much over.

So much goes into camp evaluation etc. these days it's hard to see anyone overlooked.

Curious to see a list of players that did not recieve scholarships that could have played big time D1.

I know playing at Bell did not hinder Joe Mauro from getting at scholarship to Northwestern or serious consideration from Texas. I do not see it being tremendously different that Cantu wuld have seen.

Jim Ned HS is not seen as much yet produced Colt, then the examples of Gilmer/Brenham/Aledo/anyt number of places that TExas has recruited recently.

Heck if nothing else he would have shown up on the teams Bell would have played which would have included MacArthur from the list above as well as South Grand Prairie and Trinity.
 
Oh come on

pied said:
----------------FYI I do realize I have posted several times, figured it might be easier to read-----------------
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Several posts in a row! The difference between you and Consumerman is at least you realize it. Along with some good info.
 
I agree WoodyHayes - Consumerman and Pied do have a lot in common. Any coincidence that I have had the most issues with the two? Pied has a little more sense at least. Which really isn't saying much.

Pied:

You are talking about the so called elite players - Not everyone goes to a camp to be evaluated. Actually I would say most from your average school don't go. Maybe a team like SLC has the luxury of all their players getting noticed. Maybe that is another reason for so many scholies to go their way.

I am curious as to how close you are to high school football. I really think you are usually working without a net. There is no way I could provide a list of players that are overlooked. Many of them are walk-ons that earn a scholarship. Many will out perform scholarship players. That to me would be being overlooked. It happens all the time every year, you just have to be close to the situation to know it happens.

I'm amazed that you really think mostly all players are fitted exactly were they are supposed to be in college. That is astounding.
 
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RidgePride said:
I'm amazed that you really think mostly all players are fitted exactly were they are supposed to be in college. That is astounding.
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I did not say that. What I said was:

Perhaps, but I think the days of great players with no known issues(grades/character issues/etc.) are pretty much over.

So much goes into camp evaluation etc. these days it's hard to see anyone overlooked.
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Not quite sure how you think the two statements mean the same thing at all.

I do think the number of D1 caliber athletes with no grade/character issues that fall through the cracks and end up at JUCO/D2/etc. is quite low these days.
 
pied said:
Perhaps, but I think the days of great players with no known issues(grades/character issues/etc.) are pretty much over.
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Thank you for agreeing with me after disagreeing previously. But many great players have known issues. This causes them to be bypassed. This gives some "very good players" the opportunity to obtain scholarships. Teams that play 15 to 16 games a season have more opportunity to be seen and evaluated.
 
RidgePride said:
I agree WoodyHayes - Consumerman and Pied do have a lot in common. Any coincidence that I have had the most issues with the two? Pied has a little more sense at least. Which really isn't saying much.

Pied:

...
I am curious as to how close you are to high school football. I really think you are usually working without a net. There is no way I could provide a list of players that are overlooked. Many of them are walk-ons that earn a scholarship. Many will out perform scholarship players. That to me would be being overlooked. It happens all the time every year, you just have to be close to the situation to know it happens.
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You appear to have an axe to grind with me, which is fine. I will attempt to answer your inquries.

I graduated in '89. I follow recruiting closely. When I say closely, I mean I follow Texas' recruiting extraordinarily close. I follow those recruits Texas is in on or at least interested in very closely. I also follw a$m's recruiting enough to have a subscription to their Rival's premium site as well.

I have read every Dave Campbell's cover to cover since '88.

Quite honeslty in 17 years of following Texas football, I think there have been less than ten walk ons have earned scholarships almost all ST players.

Many times it is not a case of being overlooked, not certain if you have ever heard of the preferred walk on program. Sometimes a player would rather ne a walk-on at Texas with the understanding that they may get a scholarship rather than go to another school.

That list is pretty low and again, I would not consider them being overlooked if they chose to go that route as opposed to accpeting a schoalrship to Baylor or UNT for instance.

In addition, many times these players are awarded thier scholarships their senior years. A reward if you will, but also not counting against scholarships the school was likely to hand out.
 
pied said:
So much goes into camp evaluation etc. these days it's hard to see anyone overlooked.
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This is the quote I was referring to. I just think many players are underrated and overrated. It is not an exact science. Colleges miss players all the time. Some players that could go D1 do not get scholarships and decide not to play football at all. These are the players that do not show in the Dave Magazines. Combine these players with the walk-ons.

I am not saying it is a super large amount but I think it happens more than people realize.

Another note -
There are several reasons a College may not give a Walk-on a scholarship other than not being good enough.
 
So the recruiting magazines, the recruiting services, and college recruiters miss on these guys who quit playing football, but they could have been D1 players?

I would agree that number is not super large. Count me in the category that thinks that number is super small.

Who do you think would have qualified as one of these guys?
 
A lot of community college and Div1AA players have a story to tell. I would say at least 50% feel they were overlooked - And I say I agree with several of them. When I look at the players on my high school team and the guys I played against, I feel several could have been good in college, but no one wanted them. They just go on with their lives. Also, Many walk on players do not make a team because they are not way above the guys they have. Some are about equal which means no scholie. Some may be a little better but the coaches have there favorites.



I've seen quite a few players that I believe could have been really good D1A players.


It is still my opinion but I guarantee 100% that many other people who played in college would tell you the same thing.


Ask any high school coach - I guarantee you that they agree with me. I remember my high school coach raving about how all these D1 teams missed out on our quarterback. He ended up playing at some tiny school - being the starter - then quitting after a year.
 
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RP-I understand where you are coming from. I don't think I agree that the issue is that pervasive, but certainly understand why you do.

Thanks for the perspective.
 
I understand why you feel as you do too. When you are not too close to the players nor see them everyday in practice or in every game, there is no way a common person could tell if a player is overlooked. All you have to go by is what you read and the few games you attend.

What happens a lot is that a talented player does not produce the stats because of the system he is in.

There may have been several Wide Receivers at Cedar Hill that could have put up great numbers at a SLC type school and received a big time scholarship. Same with a Carter type school. What would have happened to William Cole if the starting QB did not get hurt? Cole may not have looked that spectacular at WR especially if the Cedar Hill ground game was killing everyone. Now Cole would have been the same talent even if he was not able to fully display it in High school.

If he would have then gotten a scholarship to a smaller school, those around him would swear the kid could play major D1 football. But people like you would have said No he did not get overlooked.

You asked me to name the names of individuals that were overlooked. However, I would just be naming people you have never heard of.

I ask you to go to a high school football coach I guarantee they will tell you there are several players on their team that get overlooked each year. I don't mean a team like Keller - but one like South Grand Prairie - Grand Prairie - Arlington Bowe etc
 
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RidgePride said:
I understand why you feel as you do too. When you are not too close to the players nor see them everyday in practice or in every game, there is no way a common person could tell if a player is overlooked. All you have to go by is what you read and the few games you attend.-Wow, maybe I should send all my posts to you to review so I can be certain that it has the once over from someone close to the game.


What happens a lot is that a talented player does not produce the stats because of the system he is in.

There may have been several Wide Receivers at Cedar Hill that could have put up great numbers at a SLC type school and received a big time scholarship. Same with a Carter type school. What would have happened to William Cole if the starting QB did not get hurt? Cole may not have looked that spectacular at WR especially if the Cedar Hill ground game was killing everyone. Now Cole would have been the same talent even if he was not able to fully display it in High school. -Cole had D1 offers prior to the season. Certainly he blew up as an athlete, but he was hardly an unknown. As far as other players not getting the stats. That happens all the time. Many o Texas' receivers were HS QB's. They also recruited Riley Dodge as an athlete(DB), with the promise of getting a chance to play QB despite his gaudy stats. Wouldn't that be the opposite pf this point?

If he would have then gotten a scholarship to a smaller school, those around him would swear the kid could play major D1 football. But people like you would have said No he did not get overlooked.-But he did and he would have without the spectacular season he had.

You asked me to name the names of individuals that were overlooked. However, I would just be naming people you have never heard of.-I do agree that there are some players that are overlooked, but do think the number is small. Your direct point is it that happened to you, you know of others, and I cannot disprove it. That would be true. I could say that the athletes would excel at any level and be drafted by the NFL, but that would not be asound arguement in my opinion.

I ask you to go to a high school football coach I guarantee they will tell you there are several players on their team that get overlooked each year. I don't mean a team like Keller - but one like South Grand Prairie - Grand Prairie - Arlington Bowe etc-Not certain those are the best examples.

South Grand Prairie-had one of the top players in the country last year in Tray Allen. Hard to think players would not get noticed with all the scouts buzzing around there.
Grand Prairie-The top QB in the nation a few years back same scenario.
Arlington Bowie-QB is now at Texas along with two other team mates.

When I can point to WR's from 2A Arp and an athlete from 2A Lexington committing to a$m prior to playing a down of their senior year, it makes me believe that college recruiters will look anywhere.
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The coaches I talk to, Jersey Village/The Colony/Lamar/South Grand Prarie have not shared that same sentiment.
 
Pied - Making it to the NFL is something totally different. I would assume we would completely disagree on that issue too. Just put it this way, I believe making it is way more subjective than most people know. That is 100% fact. College guys get overlooked all the time for the NFL.

From High School to College even more players are missed.


I don't believe you talked to any varsity coaches from those schools - Also ask the recruiters, they will tell you how much of a hit and miss their profession is.
 
RidgePride said:
Pied - Making it to the NFL is something totally different. I would assume we would completely disagree on that issue too. Just put it this way, I believe making it is way more subjective than most people know. That is 100% fact. College guys get overlooked all the time for the NFL

From High School to College even more players are missed.


I don't believe you talked to any varsity coaches from those schools - Also ask the recruiters, they will tell you how much of a hit and miss their profession is.
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Curious as to why you think that I would not have spoken to these coaches?

It appears you have more interest in proving me wrong or arguing than discussing a point, or having meaningful dialogue. See the above bolded portion and what you were replying to.

I could say that the athletes would excel at any level and be drafted by the NFL, but that would not be a sound arguement in my opinion.
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I made the staement that it would not be a sound arguement in my opinion. You say that we would disagree on that to, when you said the same thing I did.

I also notice you are taking pointers of what is fact and what is opinion from TexasFrog:

I believe making it is way more subjective than most people know. That is 100% fact.
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huh?
 
I was just saying that it is 100% fact that there is a lot of subjectiveness that goes into a player making it to the NFL. Talent is not the end all be all.

Did I clarify this enough for you - the statement is in no way contradictory.


On the other issue.
I just don't think you have any connections to any high school coaches.
 
RidgePride said:
I ask you to go to a high school football coach I guarantee they will tell you there are several players on their team that get overlooked each year. I don't mean a team like Keller - but one like South Grand Prairie - Grand Prairie - Arlington Bowe etc
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Upon further review, I would most definitely revisit those schools as examples.

For the 2009 top players in Texas(note these players just completed their sophomore year), the three schools you used have six players represented.

#12 SGP
#15 Arlington Bowie
#33 Grand Prairie
#46 South Grand Prairie
#66 Arlington Bowie
#67 South Grand Prairie

http://texas.rivals.com/viewrank.asp?ra_key=1900

Again, I do understand players are missed. You named the schools and someone is out there scouting them apparently. Why would I think there would be a significant number of players from those schools with the ability/grades/character not getting recruited?
 
RidgePride said:
I was just saying that it is 100% fact that there is a lot of subjectiveness that goes into a player making it to the NFL. Talent is not the end all be all.

Did I clarify this enough for you - the statement is in no way contradictory.-I guess. Did you see that we agreed on that point, or do you want to argue that as well?

On the other issue.
I just don't think you have any connections to any high school coaches.
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Why would you think that I would lie about that? so I can make a point to someone I only know as a "username" on an internet message board?

What have I posted to make you think that I would make that up?
 
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