Should the AAC and MWC merge?

Basically, with the exception of the ranked teams bit, all you've done here is offer criticism of the premise. You've poked holes in absolutely nothing.

Making this an OOC series or "challenge" sort of thing, instead of an outright merger, doesn't work for two primary reasons:
1. Some AAC teams would be in the Western division along with BYU; only a few MWC teams are actually involved here.
2. May guaranteeing this games as conference, it opens the door for other OOC games against P5 teams, thereby offering a platform to each program to create a better SOS.
 

adselder09

Well-known member
Basically, with the exception of the ranked teams bit, all you've done here is offer criticism of the premise. You've poked holes in absolutely nothing.
:laugh: No need to get so upset that someone disagrees with you Max. By posting about said topic am I not engaging in it? Seems to me that would be the same thing. :shrug:

Making this an OOC series or "challenge" sort of thing, instead of an outright merger, doesn't work for two primary reasons:
1. Some AAC teams would be in the Western division along with BYU; only a few MWC teams are actually involved here.
2. May guaranteeing this games as conference, it opens the door for other OOC games against P5 teams, thereby offering a platform to each program to create a better SOS.
1. BYU used to be a member of the MWC, I doubt they would join this conference. As for Houston and Tulsa being included in the West, that falls into your hypothetical conference. As is, each conference has 16 members so crossover games in a challenge type event, could be done quite easily.
2. Playing the crossover game each year guarantees having another game on the schedule in addition to the conference slate. If they wanted to play a P5 team on top of the crossover, then get rid a cupcake/FCS team and pony up. Heck the SOS argument could be turned the other way because the conference doesn't have as many bottom feeders as the two separate currently do. So if there are better teams across the conference, they'll be knocking each other off and no one will be ranked, nor will they make the playoff.

The whole notion of putting these conferences together is unnecessary. The teams that aren't happy want into a P5 conference not to create a bigger Group of 5 conference even if it potentially could be better than the current situation. There's no net gain to doing this, which is why it won't happen.
 

Crusaders

Moderator
Looking at this, I think the best alignment would be:

East
Cincinnati
Houston
Memphis
Navy
Temple
UCF
UConn
USF

West
Air Force
Boise State
BYU
Colorado State
Fresno State
San Diego State
SMU
UNLV

As a conference, it would average around 33k per game (though there would likely be an uptick if the conference was treated more seriously than the AAC and MWC for playoff consideration) with an average stadium size of 47k (down to 43k if Temple ever builds their planned stadium). Additionally, its programs would be located in local markets that are home to at least 40 million people combined.

On the field, 38% of the teams (USF, Houston, Navy, Temple, Boise State, and San Diego State) would have broken into the Top 25 last season at some point. That's pretty solid.

I can see an argument for ECU (moderately competitive, large attendance) but they're in a tiny market. To overcome that, they'd need to have the "star power" of a Boise State, which they don't.

I can also see an argument for Tulane, but they simply lack competitiveness as a program, plus they're surrounded by SEC programs.

With the remnants of the MWC, I think you would see a new WAC form:
Hawaii
Idaho
Nevada
New Mexico
New Mexico State
San Jose State
Utah State
Wyoming

As for the remaining AAC teams, Tulsa could return to CUSA and Tulane and ECU could move to the Sun Belt. Or they could all go Indy and wait for the Big 12 to implode.

Overall, I think this would be a solid move for everyone involved. The conference would without a doubt command more national attention and be more competitive than the AAC and MWC are today.
 
:laugh: No need to get so upset that someone disagrees with you Max. By posting about said topic am I not engaging in it? Seems to me that would be the same thing. :shrug:


1. BYU used to be a member of the MWC, I doubt they would join this conference. As for Houston and Tulsa being included in the West, that falls into your hypothetical conference. As is, each conference has 16 members so crossover games in a challenge type event, could be done quite easily.
2. Playing the crossover game each year guarantees having another game on the schedule in addition to the conference slate. If they wanted to play a P5 team on top of the crossover, then get rid a cupcake/FCS team and pony up. Heck the SOS argument could be turned the other way because the conference doesn't have as many bottom feeders as the two separate currently do. So if there are better teams across the conference, they'll be knocking each other off and no one will be ranked, nor will they make the playoff.

The whole notion of putting these conferences together is unnecessary. The teams that aren't happy want into a P5 conference not to create a bigger Group of 5 conference even if it potentially could be better than the current situation. There's no net gain to doing this, which is why it won't happen.
Oh, don't be a vagina. You know you've been coming at this with hostility, trying to belittle a hypothetical that discusses the best of the G5 schools helping themselves.

I'm not surprised they appear to be the same thing to you since you're a moron.

1. Considering the recent backlash against the school over their policies and their denial by the Big 12, they may find this conference to be their best option.

The issue wasn't whether a MWC vs AAC challenge was possible, it was whether it was equal to forming this conference. It is not.

2. There is so much wrong to unpack here it would take 10,000 word essay. My god...How have you not run over yourself with your own lawnmower?

Bringing these two conferences together would be beneficial. Whether its necessary is not relevant.

It is abundantly clear you have an issue with these schools gaining more power. I think you're just an elitist who does not want another conference to emerge to challenge the status quo.
 
Back for more!

East:
Cincinnati
UConn
Houston
Memphis
Navy
Temple
UCF
USF

West:
Air Force
Boise State
BYU
Colorado State
Fresno State
San Diego State
SMU
UNLV

This conference alignment would have produced 7 ranked teams during the season: Boise State, Fresno State, Navy, San Diego State, UCF, USF, and Memphis.
 

FormerWildcat

Yappi Supporter
I think there is something to the point about at least some of these schools being out for themselves, which would hamper the ability to pull something like this off. Memphis really honest-to-God believes it should be in the Big 12, and thinks they "deserve" to be in a P5 conference more than the other AAC schools.

They just opened a brand-spankin' new basketball practice facility.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/story/sports/college/memphis-tigers/basketball/2017/11/17/university-memphis-unveils-new-20-million-laurie-walton-family-basketball-center/867673001/

They're going to start construction on an expansion of their existing football practice facility in January.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/story/sports/college/memphis-tigers/football/2017/11/01/construction-memphis-tigers-football-indoor-practice-facility-begin-january/821821001/

So, my sense is that they really don't care about everyone else. They're ready to drop the AAC (and everyone else) at the drop of a hat, and give a BJ to any P5 conference that would let them in.
 

adselder09

Well-known member
I think there is something to the point about at least some of these schools being out for themselves, which would hamper the ability to pull something like this off. Memphis really honest-to-God believes it should be in the Big 12, and thinks they "deserve" to be in a P5 conference more than the other AAC schools.

They just opened a brand-spankin' new basketball practice facility.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/story/sports/college/memphis-tigers/basketball/2017/11/17/university-memphis-unveils-new-20-million-laurie-walton-family-basketball-center/867673001/

They're going to start construction on an expansion of their existing football practice facility in January.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/story/sports/college/memphis-tigers/football/2017/11/01/construction-memphis-tigers-football-indoor-practice-facility-begin-january/821821001/

So, my sense is that they really don't care about everyone else. They're ready to drop the AAC (and everyone else) at the drop of a hat, and give a BJ to any P5 conference that would let them in.
Agree here. These schools, especially in the AAC are only part of that conference because no one bigger (Power 5) will have them. Plus it's not beneficial for them to be independent.

Even if they were to merge, which they won't, they'll have no more national repsect than they currently do. They wouldn't be granted in as the 6th power conference, they'll still be the leader of the Group of 5 and get treated worse than the realigned Big East during the end of the BCS era.
 

cjb56

Well-known member
Looking at this, I think the best alignment would be:

East
Cincinnati
Houston
Memphis
Navy
Temple
UCF
UConn
USF

West
Air Force
Boise State
BYU
Colorado State
Fresno State
San Diego State
SMU
UNLV

As a conference, it would average around 33k per game (though there would likely be an uptick if the conference was treated more seriously than the AAC and MWC for playoff consideration) with an average stadium size of 47k (down to 43k if Temple ever builds their planned stadium). Additionally, its programs would be located in local markets that are home to at least 40 million people combined.

On the field, 38% of the teams (USF, Houston, Navy, Temple, Boise State, and San Diego State) would have broken into the Top 25 last season at some point. That's pretty solid.

I can see an argument for ECU (moderately competitive, large attendance) but they're in a tiny market. To overcome that, they'd need to have the "star power" of a Boise State, which they don't.

I can also see an argument for Tulane, but they simply lack competitiveness as a program, plus they're surrounded by SEC programs.

With the remnants of the MWC, I think you would see a new WAC form:
Hawaii
Idaho
Nevada
New Mexico
New Mexico State
San Jose State
Utah State
Wyoming

As for the remaining AAC teams, Tulsa could return to CUSA and Tulane and ECU could move to the Sun Belt. Or they could all go Indy and wait for the Big 12 to implode.

Overall, I think this would be a solid move for everyone involved. The conference would without a doubt command more national attention and be more competitive than the AAC and MWC are today.
Looks good in theory, but there are nuances that are not factored in, such as New Mexico, Wyoming and Colorado State have been together in one league or another for about 70 years. They aren’t going to abandon each other now. They’ve always moved together. And Air Force, Wyoming and Colorado State are joined at the hip, so any league involving those schools would have to include Air Force, Colorado State, New Mexico and Wyoming together.

Of course it was thought Arkansas and Texas A&M would never leave Texas, and Nebraska would never leave Oklahoma, so who knows? Those Rocky Mountain schools I mentioned do have serious loyalty to each other, though.
 

Michael Bluth

Well-known member
This is purely a hypothetical question, but I'm curious what people think about it. Would the below conference be considered a contender for "P5" (or P6) status?

East:
USF
UCF
Cincinnati
Navy
Temple
UConn
Memphis
ECU

West:
Boise State
Houston
BYU/UNLV
Air Force
Tulsa
San Diego State
Colorado State
Hawaii
Still a mid-major conference even after hypothetical merger
 

ronnie mund

Well-known member
Essentially every measure imaginable. Current program prestige, championships, brand recognition, fanbase size, stadium size. The list goes on and on.

By what measures do you think that hypothetical conference ISN'T a mid-major?
 
Essentially every measure imaginable. Program prestige, bowl success, brand recognition, fanbase size, stadium size. The list goes on and on.

By what measure do you think that hypothetical conference IS a mid-major?
 
Big old BUMP!!

For those who are new or don't want to read back, a few years ago I proposed this conference:

East:
Cincinnati
UConn*
Houston
Memphis
Navy
Temple
UCF
USF

West:
Air Force
Boise State
BYU
Colorado State
Fresno State
San Diego State
SMU
UNLV

*If UConn were to quit as an FBS program, I believe the best alternative would be (surprisingly?!): Liberty! This program has improved rapidly and would be a great addition to this conference!

NOW! IMAGINE A BYU VS. UC CONFERENCE SHOWDOWN!! IT WOULD CREATE A REAL DISCUSSION FOR AN OUTSIDER MAKING THE PLAYOFF!

Every year this proposal makes more sense! Would be exciting if the powers-that-be would take a hard look at it and leave the egos at the door!
 

MentorGrad2002

Well-known member
Big old BUMP!!

For those who are new or don't want to read back, a few years ago I proposed this conference:

East:
Cincinnati
UConn*
Houston
Memphis
Navy
Temple
UCF
USF

West:
Air Force
Boise State
BYU
Colorado State
Fresno State
San Diego State
SMU
UNLV

*If UConn were to quit as an FBS program, I believe the best alternative would be (surprisingly?!): Liberty! This program has improved rapidly and would be a great addition to this conference!

NOW! IMAGINE A BYU VS. UC CONFERENCE SHOWDOWN!! IT WOULD CREATE A REAL DISCUSSION FOR AN OUTSIDER MAKING THE PLAYOFF!

Every year this proposal makes more sense! Would be exciting if the powers-that-be would take a hard look at it and leave the egos at the door!
No. If anything the non power 5 needs to become more tight geographically.

For instance , cusa and the sun belt need to divide their members into two separate conferences which are based east and west in geography
 

adselder09

Well-known member
Every year this suggestion makes less and less sense. Liberty will go back to being irrelevant once Hugh Freeze gets another big job in the SEC or ACC - South Carolina already opened up.

UConn already folded their football program, so it's not if they fold, it happened already. They're going back to the Big East.

UNLV, Colorado St, SDSU, Fresno St are no better national brands than ECU, Temple, USF. The only teams worth mentioning to enhance the conference's reputation would be Boise (who's fallen off in recent years) and BYU (who dipped initially as an independent but seem to be hitting stride now). Everyone else in the West Division, sans SMU who is also having a slight resurgence. And again, Liberty? Seriously?

As mentioned by MentorGrad, these smaller conferences should be looking to reconfigure based on geography as opposed to their previous conference affiliations. Imagine Navy vs. SDSU, nothing like going across the country for a conference game. This proposed conference is also worse for UC as they would have to travel much more than they already do, which is already A LOT more than they did during the Big East days. Pass on this idea, again and again and again.
 

Tardis

Well-known member
Every year this suggestion makes less and less sense. Liberty will go back to being irrelevant once Hugh Freeze gets another big job in the SEC or ACC - South Carolina already opened up.
If the Falwells personal lives don't ruin the school as a whole, I think they have the cash and booster will to be competitive and throw money around for facilities and staff. They basically want to be the Evangelical equivalent to Mormon's BYU and Catholic's ND. The only other school right now taking away from that is the culture at Clemson but Dabo has already gotten in trouble for this at times and will always be a secular university first.
 
Every year this suggestion makes less and less sense. Liberty will go back to being irrelevant once Hugh Freeze gets another big job in the SEC or ACC - South Carolina already opened up.

UConn already folded their football program, so it's not if they fold, it happened already. They're going back to the Big East.

UNLV, Colorado St, SDSU, Fresno St are no better national brands than ECU, Temple, USF. The only teams worth mentioning to enhance the conference's reputation would be Boise (who's fallen off in recent years) and BYU (who dipped initially as an independent but seem to be hitting stride now). Everyone else in the West Division, sans SMU who is also having a slight resurgence. And again, Liberty? Seriously?

As mentioned by MentorGrad, these smaller conferences should be looking to reconfigure based on geography as opposed to their previous conference affiliations. Imagine Navy vs. SDSU, nothing like going across the country for a conference game. This proposed conference is also worse for UC as they would have to travel much more than they already do, which is already A LOT more than they did during the Big East days. Pass on this idea, again and again and again.
WRONG!

1. UConn has not folded their program! They were considering moving down to the FCS but now it seems they favor going Independent!

2. Las Vegas, Denver, San Diego, and Fresno are BIGGER MARKETS than what ECU would bring. THIS WAS ALREADY DISCUSSED!

3. Yes, Liberty! As @Tardis mentioned, Liberty has the pockets and want-to to be a legitimate program (definitely more so than UConn) AND they're attractive to a LARGE Evangelical base. YOU CLEARLY DID NOT GIVE THIS MUCH THOUGHT!

4. The conference is 16 teams. Care to think about that? That means 7 inter-divisional games, 2 intra-divisional games, and 3 out-of-conference games! Tell me how that is more geographically taxing than any other program from any other conference that travels "long distance" for 1 or 2 games per season?! This is does not put UC (or anyone else) into the situation West Virginia finds itself in now!

5. Navy vs San Diego State would be a great game for the conference! A LOT of Sailors in San Diego!
 

MentorGrad2002

Well-known member
Care to explain why?
Tv deals are much smaller for the non power 5. Better to cut travel costs by having more compact conferences. It makes zero sense to expand geography and amount of teams. More teams means more splitting a smaller piece of the pie. Makes much more sense to have a 10-12 team conference where less teams split the pie and natural rivalries can be created due to tighter geography

The markers argument works with the power 5 but market doesn't matter as much if the teams representing them suck. Conference usa has gotten a lot more out of marshall and Florida Atlantic than garbage florida international which represents miami
 
TV money was already discussed:

OOC games are often scheduled a decade or more in advance. Schools hope for quality opponents when the games are actually played. A strong conference offers more of a guarantee regarding strength of schedule.

The bowl alliances could shuffle immediately with the merger, and if this conference is seen as having quality enough it could regain the former-BCS Bowl bid that the Big East held for many years - I do not see a legitimate reason for why it would be denied.

The MWC's TV contract is worth about $18m annually (source) or $1.2m per school.

The AAC's TV contract is worth about $36m (source), or $3m per school.

Now, we can look at the markets potentially involved here (the programs listed in my original post are by no means a "final incarnation" of mine):
Cincinnati (UC)
Dallas (SMU)
Denver (CSU)
Hawaii (UH)
Houston (UH)
Las Vegas (UNLV)
Memphis (UM)
Orlando (UCF)
Philadelphia (Temple)
San Diego (SDSU)
Tampa (USF)

BYU (Utah/national)
Navy (national)
Air Force (national)

Then you have name recognition programs: Boise State and UConn.

Before you laugh at this, you may need reminding that this appeared to be the direction the Big East/AAC wanted to go during realignment as they courted BYU, Boise State, TCU, and San Diego State in addition to the other western teams they ultimately gained. I do not suspect they would be entirely against trying again.

As far as TV money is concerned, the Big East was rather pathetic when it came to its TV deal for football, but they lacked the markets and coverage that this new conference would have. Would this new conference score big time money? No. The ACC, Big Ten, SEC, and Big 12 rake in about $20m per school. This conference would have a lot to prove before it can begin to dream of that sort of payday for its members. But even a modest $6m per year per school would earn AAC schools double and MWC schools 4-fold.

As far as ESPN's interests are concerned, I would be surprised if they saw this as a bad deal. If they do, I think NBC would be game.
 
I also just addressed this so-called "geography problem":

WRONG!

1. UConn has not folded their program! They were considering moving down to the FCS but now it seems they favor going Independent!

2. Las Vegas, Denver, San Diego, and Fresno are BIGGER MARKETS than what ECU would bring. THIS WAS ALREADY DISCUSSED!

3. Yes, Liberty! As @Tardis mentioned, Liberty has the pockets and want-to to be a legitimate program (definitely more so than UConn) AND they're attractive to a LARGE Evangelical base. YOU CLEARLY DID NOT GIVE THIS MUCH THOUGHT!

4. The conference is 16 teams. Care to think about that? That means 7 inter-divisional games, 2 intra-divisional games, and 3 out-of-conference games! Tell me how that is more geographically taxing than any other program from any other conference that travels "long distance" for 1 or 2 games per season?! This is does not put UC (or anyone else) into the situation West Virginia finds itself in now!

5. Navy vs San Diego State would be a great game for the conference! A LOT of Sailors in San Diego!
 

eastside_purple

Well-known member
I don’t see how this helps the aac schools at all other than to bring in Boise St and a bunch of below average programs (would BYU even participate, doubt it).
 

MentorGrad2002

Well-known member
You addressed the stuff but you are talking non specific and making points that make zero sense.
My school.is in conference usa. We are losing money because 14 schools is too big. Now you want to make a 16 team conference that spans the entire country which is 16 mouths to feed when tv deals are going down if anything. And huge travel costs It makes zero sense. And it will never happen

This is why the aac isn't adding a team from conference usa after losing uconn. It's another mouth to feed. And these non power 5 don't add enough
 
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Auggie

Well-known member
Another problem for many of the AAC teams is they are in larger metro markets, many with NFL teams, with no real loyal alumni base; this hurts ticket revenue. Houston, Dallas, Philadelphia, Cincinnati, New Orleans, Memphis, Tampa, Orlando, and Tulsa are not college towns and many have lousy stadium situations. Now you want to add basically the same thing from the west coast? While TV $s are king ticket revenue is another strong part to being considered part of a "power" conference and it's hard for the AAC to claim this when there are struggling to crack 10K for most home games. Maybe a better thing is to go to a more manageable Regional number of 8ish schools and try to get interesting OOC home and home series with 2nd tier programs from the Power 5 teams in the Region like for UC Louisville, Pitt, Purdue, IU, & Va Tech.
 
Another problem for many of the AAC teams is they are in larger metro markets, many with NFL teams, with no real loyal alumni base; this hurts ticket revenue. Houston, Dallas, Philadelphia, Cincinnati, New Orleans, Memphis, Tampa, Orlando, and Tulsa are not college towns and many have lousy stadium situations. Now you want to add basically the same thing from the west coast? While TV $s are king ticket revenue is another strong part to being considered part of a "power" conference and it's hard for the AAC to claim this when there are struggling to crack 10K for most home games. Maybe a better thing is to go to a more manageable Regional number of 8ish schools and try to get interesting OOC home and home series with 2nd tier programs from the Power 5 teams in the Region like for UC Louisville, Pitt, Purdue, IU, & Va Tech.
The AAC as reimagined here would average over 31,000 per game out of the gate! Where would it be after 10 or 15 years?! In my estimation: significantly improved!

aacattendance.png

Better teams means a better conference (and conference championship game)! Better teams means more ranked teams!

More ranked teams means more intriguing games!

More intriguing games means better TV ratings and ticket sales!

Why not go with two separate, regional conferences!? Because it's the lesser of the options!

If one wanted to trim the conference down, I would understand that! However, TV revenue must be weighed! Would losing Las Vegas or Dallas help the conference? Probably not! Whether those cities are "college towns" matters little, when there is TV money on the table, markets matter!
 
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