RPI Rankings for NWO Regionals

braygatron4

Active member
Look at the Elida district....the way the NWDAB sets up their tournament is so silly. The Elida district champ has won Regionals 10 out of the last 16 years...because more often than not, the 6-seed in Elida is better than the 2-seed in the Defiance/Napoleon, Findlay, & Wapak districts. Teams don’t have a fair and equal path to State with this format. Putting teams into Districts based on location, and having seeding done by a subjective vote is asinine.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
What ranking wouldn't have subjectivity? How far should you send a school team to make sure games at every step have "fair and equal" competition? How far to be sure all 6th seeds have exactly the same competition level before they most likely lose to a higher seen?

There are practicalities in the room. If you have a workable "fair and equal" redraw on the boundaries to propose, then propose.
 

braygatron4

Active member
What ranking wouldn't have subjectivity? How far should you send a school team to make sure games at every step have "fair and equal" competition? How far to be sure all 6th seeds have exactly the same competition level before they most likely lose to a higher seen?

There are practicalities in the room. If you have a workable "fair and equal" redraw on the boundaries to propose, then propose.
RPI takes out subjectivity. It's 1/3 Win %, 1/3 Strength of Schedule, 1/3 Opponent's SoS. There's no arguing or bias in seeding if RPI is used. 5 States have already begun using this metric for their postseason boys/girls basketball tournaments.

If by "how far" you mean travel time--doesn't matter. Each Regional should be seeded Regionwide. In D4, travel times wouldn't be that bad. Top-seed hosting Sectionals would mean a few teams may have long travel times, but that's what they did in football this fall. I guarantee all coaches & AD's would prefer longer travel times if it meant a more fair and balanced tournament setup (unless they're 1-21). District sites are neutral locations, as they are now. And again, you gotta go to Columbus if you make to State, why not get used to long bus ride? Lol.
 
Does this ranking treat a win over a 4-16 Division I team the same as a 4-16 Division IV team or is there a component for school size factored in?
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
RPI takes out subjectivity. It's 1/3 Win %, 1/3 Strength of Schedule, 1/3 Opponent's SoS.
which is a typical means to pretend it's not "subjective." The proportions are arbitrary. Without strong intra-regional competition, the strength of schedules are arbitrary. That's just a bunch of yahoos trying to pretend they know what "objective" means. I would trust those yahoos' votes over that, any...day. I would trust an AI over that, anyday.

You're argument that "you got to go to Columbus" doesn't that sum up why it's fine as is? It gets the best team to Columbus many more times than not. In NO case do I think 10 out of 16 would be significant enough to be a decision maker to change the apple cart that still gets the best team to Columbus.

I guarantee all coaches & AD's would prefer longer travel times if it meant a more fair and balanced tournament setup
That's pretty much everyone in decision making power, yet you do not like the set-up. I'm not sure how you are defining "fair" and "balanced" to be different but perhaps they have already decided the current set-up IS the "more" fair and balanced? 🤷
 
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braygatron4

Active member
Does this ranking treat a win over a 4-16 Division I team the same as a 4-16 Division IV team or is there a component for school size factored in?
I actually have 5% of the ranking based on School Size. Uses Joe Eitel's tiered points system where you get 4 pts for beating a D4 school, 4.5 for D3, 5 for D2, & 5.5 for D1. That total is then averaged and you're given your L1 Pts which is 5% of the RPI formula I used..

which is a typical means to pretend it's not "subjective." The proportions are arbitrary. Without strong intra-regional competition, the strength of schedules are arbitrary. That's just a bunch of yahoos trying to pretend they know what "objective" means. I would trust those yahoos' votes over that, any...day. I would trust an AI over that, anyday.

You're argument that "you got to go to Columbus" doesn't that sum up why it's fine as is? It gets the best team to Columbus many more times than not. In NO case do I think 10 out of 16 would be significant enough to be a decision maker to change the apple cart that still gets the best team to Columbus.



That's pretty much everyone in decision making power, yet you do not like the set-up. I'm not sure how you are defining "fair" and "balanced" to be different but perhaps they have already decided the current set-up IS the "more" fair and balanced? 🤷
The decision makers (admins & AD's) main issue with changing the tournament is (1) they have to prioritize academics over athletics and formatting a tournament where travel times are longer, and teams possibly getting home extremely late would be doing the opposite of that (even though teams travel plenty far during the regular season) and (2) they just dont want to change it cause this is has it's always been ran.

But does that mean it should keep being ran that way? No. In D4 for example, I think it's pretty evident the top 4 teams on the RPI Rankings are the clear-cut Top 4 teams, with all four of them having a legit shot at a State title.. Yet you have 2 of them in the Defiance district and 2 of them in the Elida District. If the college basketball tournament started today, are they going to put Gonzaga & Michigan in one Regional, and Baylor & Ohio State in another Regional? No, because that's the four 1-seeds! I understand the whole travel time argument, but I just feel like it makes zero sense to keep doing a tournament how it currently is just because "this is how it's always been" or because decision makers dont want to put forth the extra effort to redesign it, when there's a better way to do it. You can't possibly say the NWDAB runs a better and more fair tournament than how the NCAA seeds teams 1 thru 68 and places them on a bracket so that it's much more balanced.

Lastly, the 10 out of 16 times needs an asterisk to it. Out of the 6 years it wasn't the Elida District Champ:
2011 it was the Lima District instead of the Elida District. Who won Regionals? Lima District champ Continental. Chalk another one up for Elida
2012 went to SW Regional
2013 went to SW Regional

so technically speaking, that would make it 11/14 years. 79% isn't significant enough for you???

And I'm also not saying that RPI is the end-all be-all of seeding the teams. If there's a better way to do it, that's great. Whatever method is used though needs to be seeded Region-wide instead of by District.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
I actually have 5% of the ranking based on School Size. Uses Joe Eitel's tiered points system where you get 4 pts for beating a D4 school, 4.5 for D3, 5 for D2, & 5.5 for D1. That total is then averaged and you're given your L1 Pts which is 5% of the RPI formula I used..



The decision makers (admins & AD's) main issue with changing the tournament is (1) they have to prioritize academics over athletics and formatting a tournament where travel times are longer, and teams possibly getting home extremely late would be doing the opposite of that (even though teams travel plenty far during the regular season) and (2) they just dont want to change it cause this is has it's always been ran.

1) But does that mean it should keep being ran that way? No. In D4 for example, I think it's pretty evident the top 4 teams on the RPI Rankings are the clear-cut Top 4 teams, with all four of them having a legit shot at a State title.. Yet you have 2 of them in the Defiance district and 2 of them in the Elida District. If the college basketball tournament started today, are they going to put
2) Gonzaga & Michigan in one Regional, and Baylor & Ohio State in another Regional? No, because that's the four 1-seeds! I understand the whole travel time argument, but I just feel like it makes zero sense to keep doing a tournament how it currently is just because "this is how it's always been" or because decision makers dont want to put forth the extra effort to redesign it, when there's a better way to do it. You can't possibly say the NWDAB runs a better and more fair tournament than how the NCAA seeds teams 1 thru 68 and places them on a bracket so that it's much more balanced.

Lastly, the 10 out of 16 times needs an asterisk to it. Out of the 6 years it wasn't the Elida District Champ:
2011 it was the Lima District instead of the Elida District. Who won Regionals? Lima District champ Continental. Chalk another one up for Elida
2012 went to SW Regional
2013 went to SW Regional

3) so technically speaking, that would make it 11/14 years. 79% isn't significant enough for you???

And I'm also not saying that RPI is the end-all be-all of seeding the teams. If there's a better way to do it, that's great. Whatever method is used though needs to be seeded Region-wide instead of by District.
1) No it doesn't but you still do not seem to have determined that the coaches/Admin all would rather do it by region as you stated. It seems only your opinion. If it's fact, isn't it easy enough to just gather that into a document and present it?
2) Do you think it a compelling argument comparing what big, no, massive budget programs like D1 college do, who carry their tutors and test monitor and hotel passes with them to kids traveling late at night for a game?
3) Wait, you changed the stats then want to act I didn't think them significant, even though those weren't the stats you quoted originally? If you want to keep playing, you're going to have to roll up your sleeves. lol.

Academics and safety will always have to be first on the mind. "Fair and balanced" games are an acceptable compromise to "Academics and safety" in any mind with priorities right. No one would want a mistake in the latter on their conscious. I suppose you're going to have to argue that their measures of Academics and safety are subjective and that there is a better way to meet those objectives, one that is more consistent with your understanding of "fair and balanced?" Find a way that better meets all four standards, you'll probably get what you want.
 

braygatron4

Active member
1) No it doesn't but you still do not seem to have determined that the coaches/Admin all would rather do it by region as you stated. It seems only your opinion. If it's fact, isn't it easy enough to just gather that into a document and present it?
2) Do you think it a compelling argument comparing what big, no, massive budget programs like D1 college do, who carry their tutors and test monitor and hotel passes with them to kids traveling late at night for a game?
3) Wait, you changed the stats then want to act I didn't think them significant, even though those weren't the stats you quoted originally? If you want to keep playing, you're going to have to roll up your sleeves. lol.

Academics and safety will always have to be first on the mind. "Fair and balanced" games are an acceptable compromise to "Academics and safety" in any mind with priorities right. No one would want a mistake in the latter on their conscious. I suppose you're going to have to argue that their measures of Academics and safety are subjective and that there is a better way to meet those objectives, one that is more consistent with your understanding of "fair and balanced?" Find a way that better meets all four standards, you'll probably get what you want.
Allen East is driving 1h30m to Fairview tomorrow. Tip is at 7, those kids arent getting to their homes until 11pm.
Napoleon/Bryan winner will have 1h35m drive St. Mary's.
Patrick Henry 1h10m to Lincolnview.
Edon/North Central winner 1h10m to Toledo Christian.
Liberty-Benton/Riverdale winner 1h10m to Wayne Trace.
Emmanuel Christian 1h5m to Ayersville.
Lima Temple Christian 1h5m to St. Henry.
Tinora 1h5m to Bluffton.
Paulding 1h5m to Coldwater.

Look at the playoff matchups in football last fall.
Edon to Arcadia, 1h50m.
Montpelier @ Carey, 1h50m.
Wayne Trace @ Gibsonburg, 1h40m.
Hicksville @ Woodmore, 1h30m.
Antwerp to Waynesfield Goshen, 1h20m.

So what are we talking about the travel times will be too long??? How will they get any longer than some of them already are?? How would seeding regionwide make those travel times much different? Point being, it happens everywhere already and it'd be naive/lazy to think it'd just be impossible to seed region-wide if the only argument against it is long travel times..I'd bet the majority of teams have a game with an hour+ drive on their regular season schedule already. When I made these rankings last year, I looked at that and 40 out of 54 D4 teams had a game over an hour away in the regular season.

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So why all of a sudden when it's tourney time are we crying foul? Central DAB already does it this way. Yeah they all have shorter travel times with them all being in the Columbus area, but that tournament is fair and balanced. If they're worried about teams getting home late? Okay, move the starting times up then. They've already moved District times up this year to 5:30p & 7:30p as opposed to the usual 6:15p & 8p. Why they still have the Sectional matchups starting at 7p, who the hell knows. And now I'm just rambling on lol and I know trying to argue with you on here is just beating a dead horse. You just can't convince me that travel times can be the main reason not to do it when you look at how far teams are traveling for Sectionals this week already.
 

cchs1983

Well-known member
Trying to figure out the games, if Rossford gets past CCHS and then Sandusky/TC winner they advance to play possibly Butchel in a regional semi-final?
 

Insane92

Well-known member
Trying to figure out the games, if Rossford gets past CCHS and then Sandusky/TC winner they advance to play possibly Butchel in a regional semi-final?
I believe so and Buchtel could be on a collision course with Lima Shawnee and Mangas for the Regional Final.
 

D1nwobb

Active member
Makes sense. Just to rest up or was it disciplinary or what? Assuming just to rest
Rossford announced in early February that the 2/19 game at Woodmore was postponed. About 10 days later, it was announced that the game was back on for that date and would be played but varsity only. It appears that Rossford wanted to finish the regular season with their game at St. Ignatius and then rest their players. Not sure if Woodmore (or the league) was on board with that. I can only speculate that it's part of the on-going drama between Rossford basketball and other NBC members.
 

braygatron4

Active member
Predictions for Districts
D2:
Columbian over Sandusky. Rossford over Toledo CC. Rossford over Columbian
Norton over Cuyahoga Valley CA. Buchtel over Firelands. Buchtel over Norton
Shelby over Huron. Norwalk over Ontario. Shelby over Norwalk
Shawnee over Defiance. St. Mary's over Wauseon. Shawnee over St. Mary's

D3:
Ottawa-Glandorf over Coldwater. Wayne Trace over Bath (tossup). Ottawa-Glandorf over Wayne Trace
Stritch over Eastwood. Archbold over Ottawa Hills. Stritch over Archbold.
North Union over Liberty Union. Johnstown Monroe over Bishop Ready. North Union over Johnstown Monroe (tossup).
Colonel Crawford over Willard. Western Reserve over Crestview. Colonel Crawford over Western Reserve (best D3 matchup, 50-50 here)

D4:
Old Fort over Carey. Tiffin Calvert over Mohawk. Old Fort over Tiffin Calvert.
Columbus Grove over Lincolnview. Ottoville over Crestview. Ottoville over Columbus Grove (going to be an awesome game)
Lima Perry over St. Henry. Minster over New Bremen. Minster over Lima Perry
Antwerp over Fayette. Toledo Christian over Hicksville. Toledo Christian over Antwerp (I bet by double digits).

Tell me where I'm wrong! lol
 

Fayette79

Active member
Predictions for Districts
D2:
Columbian over Sandusky. Rossford over Toledo CC. Rossford over Columbian
Norton over Cuyahoga Valley CA. Buchtel over Firelands. Buchtel over Norton
Shelby over Huron. Norwalk over Ontario. Shelby over Norwalk
Shawnee over Defiance. St. Mary's over Wauseon. Shawnee over St. Mary's

D3:
Ottawa-Glandorf over Coldwater. Wayne Trace over Bath (tossup). Ottawa-Glandorf over Wayne Trace
Stritch over Eastwood. Archbold over Ottawa Hills. Stritch over Archbold.
North Union over Liberty Union. Johnstown Monroe over Bishop Ready. North Union over Johnstown Monroe (tossup).
Colonel Crawford over Willard. Western Reserve over Crestview. Colonel Crawford over Western Reserve (best D3 matchup, 50-50 here)

D4:
Old Fort over Carey. Tiffin Calvert over Mohawk. Old Fort over Tiffin Calvert.
Columbus Grove over Lincolnview. Ottoville over Crestview. Ottoville over Columbus Grove (going to be an awesome game)
Lima Perry over St. Henry. Minster over New Bremen. Minster over Lima Perry
Antwerp over Fayette. Toledo Christian over Hicksville. Toledo Christian over Antwerp (I bet by double digits).

Tell me where I'm wrong! lol
Wauseon over St. Mary's...Indians defense & guard play will come up huge here.

Archbold over Stritch in Toledo District Final...Blue Streaks have overachieved all year long so why not one more time here?? lol

Fayette upsets Antwerp...proud Alum hoping the Eagles can pull the monumental upset. :)
 

tcgobucks

Well-known member
Wauseon over St. Mary's...Indians defense & guard play will come up huge here.

Archbold over Stritch in Toledo District Final...Blue Streaks have overachieved all year long so why not one more time here?? lol

Fayette upsets Antwerp...proud Alum hoping the Eagles can pull the monumental upset. :)
Lol....you mean overachieved like trailing Liberty Center most of the game and pulling out a 2 point win? I'm not sure Archbold can beat Ottawa HIlls at this point
 

Fayette79

Active member
Lol....you mean overachieved like trailing Liberty Center most of the game and pulling out a 2 point win? I'm not sure Archbold can beat Ottawa HIlls at this point
Exactly. Living in Wauseon and following the NWOAL I usually see Archbold a few times a year. This Archbold team in terms of basketball talent should be 10-10 at best. They have some good athletes but not any real basketball talent. I thought they would get beat handily by Wauseon for the league title but they wanted it more then the Indians.

At the same time I think Coach Badenhop has done a terrific job at Liberty Center. Basketball takes a back seat to football and wrestling in that town but he has really been able to get the kids to buy in to his program. They aren't the most talented basketball players but they are hard-nosed kids who play hard all the time. Good athletes as well that match up evenly with Archbold as evidenced by the two meetings this year.
 

RollingTrain

Well-known member
Predictions for Districts
D2:
Columbian over Sandusky. Rossford over Toledo CC. Rossford over Columbian
Norton over Cuyahoga Valley CA. Buchtel over Firelands. Buchtel over Norton
Shelby over Huron. Norwalk over Ontario. Shelby over Norwalk
Shawnee over Defiance. St. Mary's over Wauseon. Shawnee over St. Mary's

D3:
Ottawa-Glandorf over Coldwater. Wayne Trace over Bath (tossup). Ottawa-Glandorf over Wayne Trace
Stritch over Eastwood. Archbold over Ottawa Hills. Stritch over Archbold.
North Union over Liberty Union. Johnstown Monroe over Bishop Ready. North Union over Johnstown Monroe (tossup).
Colonel Crawford over Willard. Western Reserve over Crestview. Colonel Crawford over Western Reserve (best D3 matchup, 50-50 here)

D4:
Old Fort over Carey. Tiffin Calvert over Mohawk. Old Fort over Tiffin Calvert.
Columbus Grove over Lincolnview. Ottoville over Crestview. Ottoville over Columbus Grove (going to be an awesome game)
Lima Perry over St. Henry. Minster over New Bremen. Minster over Lima Perry
Antwerp over Fayette. Toledo Christian over Hicksville. Toledo Christian over Antwerp (I bet by double digits).

Tell me where I'm wrong! lol
I'm actually going to go with Carey over Old Fort, Tiffin Calvert over Mohawk, Tiffin Calvert over Carey in OT.

Agree with you...I'll take Ottoville, Minster and Toledo Christian.
 
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