Qualifiers to State

ohiorunner13

New member
and my other rant is just how one regional meet has 7 teams and the other 24..I agree that all that matters is the talent of the teams who make it to state..but my argument is the disproportionate team numbers at the Tiffin and Boardman Regional. One Regional meet is super packed up and packed up on a very narrow and sharp turned course, with the other one being set up for huge meets/races (tiffin carnival) but only has 7 teams..less than many conference meets. I am not saying add 7 teams to Tiffin, but rather (effectively) even them up, NOT by talent of teams but rather demographics of the locations of these schools
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
and my other rant is just how one regional meet has 7 teams and the other 24..I agree that all that matters is the talent of the teams who make it to state..but my argument is the disproportionate team numbers at the Tiffin and Boardman Regional. One Regional meet is super packed up and packed up on a very narrow and sharp turned course, with the other one being set up for huge meets/races (tiffin carnival) but only has 7 teams..less than many conference meets. I am not saying add 7 teams to Tiffin, but rather (effectively) even them up, NOT by talent of teams but rather demographics of the locations of these schools
Can't do it because you will end up in the same situation that they had to fix before. Where teams will have boys at Tiffin and Girls at Boardman when they are in different divisions. Boardman has fit twice as many as the 24 teams. they run at Regional in their invite, so that's not a big deal.

You also run the risk of have no representation from the NW, or even less than they do now.

The problem comes in that if you petition the OHSAA to allow more teams to run at the Regional, then the results might be skewed by the number of teams and individuals. A race with 17 teams to get the top 2 teams is much different than a race with 7 teams to get 2 teams. Especially depending on your number 5. A weaker number 5 should be less of a disadvantage with fewer teams.

The other issue is that if you do move teams from another Regional into Tiffin, then you change the configuration of the Other Regional too.

It is all proportional. I've watched plenty of Cross Country meets with 7 teams and less that have been great races. I prefer smaller races where I can keep track of every team and know exactly what is going on. I can still do it with 24 teams, but it is a lot more guesswork. Absolutely nothing wrong with a 7 team race.
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
Yes, you are wrong on that.

The number of teams qualifying to each regional and which districts (as in DAB) they come from are determined by OHSAA staff using a formula and approved by the Board of Directors. The DABs determine how many district races they will run, how many teams (and thus how many individuals) will qualify from each of those races to the Regionals that they are assigned.

The NW CANNOT forego running districts for D1 in favor of putting everybody on the line at Tiffin. They can only qualify the 7 teams they have been allocated. They CAN determine whether they want to run 1, 2, or as many as 7 district races.
Yeah, I thought I was wrong on that. Interjecting more what I think should be done than what is actually done. I think they do it correctly now. I'm good with a 7 team race.
 

CoventryTrackXCguy

Well-known member
Honestly, worrying about how to split regions and districts to avoid stacked regions and districts is pointless. In Ohio, we divide our regions on Geography. And our regions divide up the districts also based on Geography. You will always have stacked districts and regions. There is no way around that.

Talent ebbs and flows. What is a stacked district today, may be a cupcake district in 5 years.

I have been silent around yappi the past couple years. My coventry comets had a nice 4 year streak where they qualified to regionals. That streak ended 4 seasons ago. Talent comes and goes. This year, we started off with a couple of strong runners, and little depth. But this group might be one of the most suprising, dedicated, driven teams Coventry has put together, and it has shown. Times dropped. Kids really improved. We took 11th place out of 50 teams at Legends. Team top 5 averaged just 5 seconds slower then $V$M.

In past years, this team is a lock to qualify, out of Glen Oak. But this year, 5 teams qualify. And Marlington, Salem, Field, Tallmadge, and $V$M are all in this district, and outclass us. The most beatable team is $V$M. Unless our 5 and 4 can close the gap substantially, with our 3 and 2, our math is impossible. Its a bummer, for these kids that have put so much work. But its how it goes. A couple of those coventry teams that qualified 6-7 years ago, dont qualify out of any other district in the region that year, so theres that.

It is what it is.
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
Honestly, worrying about how to split regions and districts to avoid stacked regions and districts is pointless. In Ohio, we divide our regions on Geography. And our regions divide up the districts also based on Geography. You will always have stacked districts and regions. There is no way around that.

Talent ebbs and flows. What is a stacked district today, may be a cupcake district in 5 years.

I have been silent around yappi the past couple years. My coventry comets had a nice 4 year streak where they qualified to regionals. That streak ended 4 seasons ago. Talent comes and goes. This year, we started off with a couple of strong runners, and little depth. But this group might be one of the most suprising, dedicated, driven teams Coventry has put together, and it has shown. Times dropped. Kids really improved. We took 11th place out of 50 teams at Legends. Team top 5 averaged just 5 seconds slower then $V$M.

In past years, this team is a lock to qualify, out of Glen Oak. But this year, 5 teams qualify. And Marlington, Salem, Field, Tallmadge, and $V$M are all in this district, and outclass us. The most beatable team is $V$M. Unless our 5 and 4 can close the gap substantially, with our 3 and 2, our math is impossible. Its a bummer, for these kids that have put so much work. But its how it goes. A couple of those coventry teams that qualified 6-7 years ago, dont qualify out of any other district in the region that year, so theres that.

It is what it is.
We will see much better how Coventry Stacks up this evening at their Conference meet. #1 is OK. Issues after that. IMO.

Numbers....Bodies....Coventry needs to get more kids participating. Coventry., Field , Streetsboro and Woodridge are all the same size. Coventry has by far the lowest numbers every year. Need to get something going at MS where it's all just fun. It's not like it's an expensive sport, so economics should not be an issue. It's all about solving the puzzle of how to get kids out. #1 team goal should be to get more kids out. #2. Finish 2nd in the Conference. From there you can build to qualifying to State.
 

CoventryTrackXCguy

Well-known member
We will see much better how Coventry Stacks up this evening at their Conference meet. #1 is OK. Issues after that. IMO.

Numbers....Bodies....Coventry needs to get more kids participating. Coventry., Field , Streetsboro and Woodridge are all the same size. Coventry has by far the lowest numbers every year. Need to get something going at MS where it's all just fun. It's not like it's an expensive sport, so economics should not be an issue. It's all about solving the puzzle of how to get kids out. #1 team goal should be to get more kids out. #2. Finish 2nd in the Conference. From there you can build to qualifying to State.
I think its about whose coaching. Someone who is passionate about running. Someone who is able to motivate kids. Someone who has a platform by which they can recruit the halls. Someone who is ambitious about building a successful program.

Also, our numbers have been down since Covid.

We have a middle school team, but not much interest there at the moment.

Previous coach coached from 2016-2019. There were a dozen kids on the middle school team. He could get numbers out. He doesnt coach anymore though.

our current coach has been in charge for 3 years. Coach Nicole. Very passionate about running. Very passionate about building a competitive team. She has one hurdle. She is not a teacher. She is not well positioned to recruit our halls. We dont know how to get the numbers out. She solves that puzzle, she will be a legendary coach. We are trying to talk her into assisting the track team. Other then that, I dont know.
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
I think its about whose coaching. Someone who is passionate about running. Someone who is able to motivate kids. Someone who has a platform by which they can recruit the halls. Someone who is ambitious about building a successful program.

Also, our numbers have been down since Covid.

We have a middle school team, but not much interest there at the moment.

Previous coach coached from 2016-2019. There were a dozen kids on the middle school team. He could get numbers out. He doesnt coach anymore though.

our current coach has been in charge for 3 years. Coach Nicole. Very passionate about running. Very passionate about building a competitive team. She has one hurdle. She is not a teacher. She is not well positioned to recruit our halls. We dont know how to get the numbers out. She solves that puzzle, she will be a legendary coach. We are trying to talk her into assisting the track team. Other then that, I dont know.
Got to solve it. All the teams are down in numbers since Covid in the league. Looks like by half at least. Coventry is in a conference that has Woodridge, Field and Cloverleaf as examples of solid programs. District, Regional and State would be so far behind success in the league that it wouldn't be funny if I was putting a plan together. Full teams MS and HS, Boys and Girls #1. MS coaches don't need to know a thing about the sport other than how to get kids to participate and make it fun and safe. HS coach can give them minimal workout plans to do. Has to be a MS teacher that could use a few extra grand in their account. It's not like they have to dive deep into putting together a playbook or spend hours researching new and better ways. Can't believe there aren't 5 nerdy boys and 5 nerdy girls in the school. 5 boys or girls that parents want them active and doing something. 5 moms that don't want their kids playing football because of concussion scare. There are kids out there.

Just like the kids and teams have to have goals, The school and community have to have goals. If you are going to have a program (and every school should) there has to be a plan to get as many kids involved as possible. We are going to field full teams and score teams at every meet. That is a very simple and realistic goal. Do that #1 and then worry about how well those teams do later. It's not like Football where getting beat 62-0 is just a horrible embarrassing thing. Eventually you get that special class that has the talent and most importantly the leadership to do something special that bumps things to the next level. Then, you figure out the goals to keep it going.
 

yj_runfan

Well-known member
Got to solve it. All the teams are down in numbers since Covid in the league. Looks like by half at least. Coventry is in a conference that has Woodridge, Field and Cloverleaf as examples of solid programs. District, Regional and State would be so far behind success in the league that it wouldn't be funny if I was putting a plan together. Full teams MS and HS, Boys and Girls #1. MS coaches don't need to know a thing about the sport other than how to get kids to participate and make it fun and safe. HS coach can give them minimal workout plans to do. Has to be a MS teacher that could use a few extra grand in their account. It's not like they have to dive deep into putting together a playbook or spend hours researching new and better ways. Can't believe there aren't 5 nerdy boys and 5 nerdy girls in the school. 5 boys or girls that parents want them active and doing something. 5 moms that don't want their kids playing football because of concussion scare. There are kids out there.

Just like the kids and teams have to have goals, The school and community have to have goals. If you are going to have a program (and every school should) there has to be a plan to get as many kids involved as possible. We are going to field full teams and score teams at every meet. That is a very simple and realistic goal. Do that #1 and then worry about how well those teams do later. It's not like Football where getting beat 62-0 is just a horrible embarrassing thing. Eventually you get that special class that has the talent and most importantly the leadership to do something special that bumps things to the next level. Then, you figure out the goals to keep it going.
Best post I’ve read in a long time. Imagine if someone did this at an inner city school in one of the larger cities?
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
Best post I’ve read in a long time. Imagine if someone did this at an inner city school in one of the larger cities?
Psycho_dad knows about that and how challenging it is to implement the plan in the circumstances surrounding that environment. If the school administration is either unsupportive or disorganized, then it's nearly impossible to get past that initial hurdle.
 

CoventryTrackXCguy

Well-known member
Psycho_dad knows about that and how challenging it is to implement the plan in the circumstances surrounding that environment. If the school administration is either unsupportive or disorganized, then it's nearly impossible to get past that initial hurdle.
For us, administration cannot be our excuse. Our athletic director is also our track coach. While he has certainly seen success on the track, in sprints and jumps, in recent years (before covid-his team will bounce back, just give him a couple years) he knows he cant compete against Woodridge/field/'Leaf without a distance squad. He has a vested interest in what his distance runners are doing in the fall time.

What we lack is know how. We dont know how to convince kids they want to run 30 miles a week. And for many years, it looked like we didn't even know how to coach them up to a competitive level, even if we did have them.

We just have to make do with what little expertise we have. Trial and error. Im a recent grad, and am in college now, as an education major. Maybe I will get my chance to do it.
 

mathking

Well-known member
Psycho_dad knows about that and how challenging it is to implement the plan in the circumstances surrounding that environment. If the school administration is either unsupportive or disorganized, then it's nearly impossible to get past that initial hurdle.
Even if you get past the administration hurdle, transportation is always an issue. My son's HS cross country team peaked at about a dozen boys, and the track team had a few more than that, both when he was a sophomore. Boys cross country only had a scoring team in two of his four years. The pandemic just destroyed the program, so that by the last meet of his senior year there were only two boys running. International was small (about 80-90 kids per grade) but there was no football team to compete with, so they should have been able to put together a decent team. The coach was new to XC when my son was a freshman, but he did everything right in terms of trying to recruit kids. The lack of transportation was just killer. Some of son's teammates face over 90 minute journey's home if they rode metro buses after practice. I almost always ended up taking at least one other kid home. If Columbus had activity buses at the HS level (they do for MS) the situation would be much better.
 

Running Man 101

Well-known member
For us, administration cannot be our excuse. Our athletic director is also our track coach. While he has certainly seen success on the track, in sprints and jumps, in recent years (before covid-his team will bounce back, just give him a couple years) he knows he cant compete against Woodridge/field/'Leaf without a distance squad. He has a vested interest in what his distance runners are doing in the fall time.

What we lack is know how. We dont know how to convince kids they want to run 30 miles a week. And for many years, it looked like we didn't even know how to coach them up to a competitive level, even if we did have them.

We just have to make do with what little expertise we have. Trial and error. Im a recent grad, and am in college now, as an education major. Maybe I will get my chance to do it.
You have to get them out and the running part will take care of itself over a few years. They don't start off from scratch running 30 miles per week. You start with run 1 min and walk 1 min, work your way up from there. Slow kids have fast friends sometimes. XC cannot be 100% having only the fastest kids. The average kids are the glue that hold it together sometimes.

The administrative piece is the hardest to deal with IMHO. For some, athletics just isn't very important to them. It permeates everything because all the school teams are mediocre. Brand new track gets torn-up almost from day one. No attempt to stop it. They don't want ice machines, to much to maintain. I could go on. ..

We don't have any coaches in the schools either. You have to build relationships with other teams and coaches in other sports.
 

psycho_dad

Well-known member
Even if you get past the administration hurdle, transportation is always an issue. My son's HS cross country team peaked at about a dozen boys, and the track team had a few more than that, both when he was a sophomore. Boys cross country only had a scoring team in two of his four years. The pandemic just destroyed the program, so that by the last meet of his senior year there were only two boys running. International was small (about 80-90 kids per grade) but there was no football team to compete with, so they should have been able to put together a decent team. The coach was new to XC when my son was a freshman, but he did everything right in terms of trying to recruit kids. The lack of transportation was just killer. Some of son's teammates face over 90 minute journey's home if they rode metro buses after practice. I almost always ended up taking at least one other kid home. If Columbus had activity buses at the HS level (they do for MS) the situation would be much better.
Not only Transportation to and from practice, but also Meets. the two years I coached in the inner city, Admin was great for uniforms, but not much else. We would show up at the school on Saturday morning with no bus/ van to get to the meet if the kids showed up. What I found was Weekday meets was the best. I'd have enough kids and transportation to the meet. It's a level of CC that I am not used to, but it's all relative. I had finally gotten what I thought was a good plan / system in place when the Girls basketball team got crushed by 107 points in the OHSAA tournament. The AD got fired. The new AD never returned any of my emails or calls about the next CC season. However, I had contacted other coaches of large schools about running meets during the week my kids against their JV or lower. I had some kids that were actually putting in some miles outside of the season and even though there was not an official girls team, I had gotten 4 girls running practices the season before and they claimed to have friends wanting to come out the next season. The AD that got fired was going to let me have a girls team as well.

Ironically. the reason for having CC in the first place was to meet OHSAA requirements so that basketball and volleyball could be in the OHSAA tournaments. I put more time and effort into those two seasons than just about anything in my life. My youngest son was in MS at Woodridge and I remember being happy that I had gotten kids to run about what MS workouts were at Woodridge.

It's all very Basic, but it's not easy. Like you said. Just getting to school and home was a lot of time and effort for these kids. Taking the Metro with many stops and transfers and a schedule that had them waiting at places you wouldn't want your kids waiting at. Especially at the time of morning and evening they needed to ride. Just trying to get the kids to all have physicals was a big planning nightmare and I paid for them myself and never was reimbursed. (Which I could care less about, but that's what it takes.)

I'm sorry, but there is talent there, but more importantly. there are kids that deserve better. They all enjoyed CC, but I was the only one that really cared at all about it and the kids. They boast on their web site and in their literature that they offer this and that, but they don't. None of us would stand for how things are done if it was our kids and our school.

Look at Woodridge now. Back in the 80's my mom drove all but one girl home from CC practice each day so they could even field a team. Every single day. I didn't have any sisters. It takes people like that to do things for kids that aren't their own. My parents donated more time and money to other kids than you would believe.
 

mathking

Well-known member
I can completely relate pscyho_dad. When I was coaching in Cincinnati one year, the principal and I bought the uniforms out of our own pockets because the track team had grown from 12 boys and 8 girls for 45 and 35, but there was only a budget for 12 and 12 uniforms. I at least had good in the school admin support there. That year in fact, I did not have a second coach, so my principle or assistant principal would go to meets. At least there a lot of the kids came from the housing project around the corner from the school, so they could stay. At my son's school in Columbus one year, I was routinely taking four kids home from XC practice. The coach did a nice job building the team up (from 3 when my son was a freshman) so that they had 12 guys running, with two of them under 17 and they got second in the city league and I think 6th (missed advancing to the regional by not very much) in the district with two guys advancing individually. Then Covid crushed everything.
 
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