Planned Parenthood Vindicated?

 
No, it shows a bias in the GJ. It was filmed and released as evidence of PP discussing the sale of fetal tissue and body parts as well as describing how best to harvest the pieces parts........ I don't see this going to trial, I can't see it being winnable for the prosecution unless the jury pool is Hillary Supporters.
 
And so this case provides a rather fitting metaphor for the way conservatives have acted on the broader issue of abortion rights — their zealotry, their contempt for the women who need abortions, and their mistaken assumption that the public will be behind them no matter how far they go.
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"...for women who need abortions." I'd like the writer to define what "Needing an abortion" means. The whole issue is that abortions aren't needed except maybe in extreme cases. It's a human that is being killed but pro-abortionist refuse to see it.
 
Why is 60 Minutes and any of the "gotcha" journalists ever indicted? I seem to remember an NBC News show that used to try to catch pedophiles that operated in a similar manner.
 
MoeDude said:
"...for women who need abortions." I'd like the writer to define what "Needing an abortion" means. The whole issue is that abortions aren't needed except maybe in extreme cases. It's a human that is being killed but pro-abortionist refuse to see it.
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Just stumbled upon this, coincidentally. From reddit:

Systems Biologist here. Did my Ph.D. discovering how cellular signals arange in space and it's implications on cancer. I currently run a researxh group on liver toxicity and signaling.

The first issue with your argument is that life does not 'begin' anywhere. It is a continuum at the cellular level. Cells make copies of new cells. In many organisms , sometimes they change the number of chromosomes they have - going to one genome set (haploid) to having two genome sets (diploid) in metazoans.

In animals this trick is used to increase genetic diversity in an organism by combining the genome sets of two distinct individuals. This is sexual reproduction. I assure you, everything in this process - from the parent egg and sperm cells , their combination and the development to an embryo consists of cells that are alive.

So the where does life begin question is a little meaningless. The start point is arbitrarily defined for convenience/convention. A bit like how time zones begin at Greenwich Mean time.

That out of the way, it is important to note that an individuals body will terminate its own cells by a variety of mechanisms. Cell death is an important aspect in maintaining a healthy human body. Cell death is what sculpts your fingers, prevents you from succumbing to infections, prevents your immune system from destroying your own body...the list is endless. In that light, after fertilization, the embryo is as much part of a woman's body as her own hair follicles or skin cells. Even as a fetus, it remains completely dependent on the mother and is actually rather like a parasite. If she has a right to cut her hair and scrub her skin, terminating an embryo is not conceptually different. It is not even literally that different since abortion involves mainly scrubbing of uterine epithelium (called the endometrium).

Finally, abortion is objectively speaking an act of causing cell death by a neural/mental impulse for protection (economic / psychological /physical) of the parent organism.

Many pregnancies are terminated automatically through hormonal and cellular signaling pathways if the mother's body is not ready or capable for it. Abortion is simply a neural route of achieving the same result in response. A brain response is as much part of an individual's biology as their hormonal response.
Thus from a scientific point of view the entire pro-life stance is meaningless.

My purposefully strictly objective answer should at least convince you that this is not a scientific debate. It is an ethical debate. As such, it is subjective and you are not going to convince anyone who doesn't want to be convinced.
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Pretty much why I consider the fetus to be a part of the mother until they are capable of surviving without the connection.
 
Senor said:
To Catch A Predator worked jointly with law enforcement if I recall correctly.
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60 Minutes, HBO, etc. doesn't always work with law enforcement. It appears that law enforcement and the Press have little interest in checking on PP, a private entity that receives massive funding from the government. So maybe it IS up to the citizenry to do so - that IS one of our rights in a free society. After all, it was a citizen journalist that caught CBS lying about Bush's past. This seems to be closer to a whistleblower, which in the past has typically received various protections and even rewards.
 
Crusaders said:
Pretty much why I consider the fetus to be a part of the mother until they are capable of surviving without the connection.
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We have 30-somethings that still can't survive without a connection to their mother. Where does that leave them?
 
ronnie mund said:
Just stumbled upon this, coincidentally. From reddit:
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Interesting. Although, if Moe and others were sincere in their beliefs, then ALL miscarriages would be investigated for murder. How else could we determine whether it was natural or misconduct? Not to mention how could it be acceptable that a "precious human" could be disposed by toilet, rather than properly, legally, and regulated?
 
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In regards to the thread - about what I expected. Pub investigation, Pub DA, in a Pub state finds nothing but dishonest, unsubstantiated claims, and instead, inappropriate and criminal misconduct - by the fake journalists. While the "anti crowd" doubles down on it.

Would actually be funny if not so pathetic.
 
TigerPaw said:
In regards to the thread - about what I expected. Pub investigation, Pub DA, in a Pub state finds nothing but dishonest, unsubstantiated claims, and instead, inappropriate and criminal misconduct - by the fake journalists. While the "anti crowd" doubles down on it.

Would actually be funny if not so pathetic.
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Conservatives tend to set high expectations for their own, hence the prosecution for using faked drivers licenses, etc.

Liberals, on the other hand, scream about a 'vast right-wing conspiracy' and line up lockstep behind their own when illegality is brought up.

Please, tell me why the Justice Dept. hasn't opened up prosecution on Hillary for the email fiasco yet.....numerous laws were broken. :shrug:
 
TigerPaw said:
Interesting. Although, if Moe and others were sincere in their beliefs, then ALL miscarriages would be investigated for murder. How else could we determine whether it was natural or misconduct? Not to mention how could it be acceptable that a "precious human" could be disposed by toilet, rather than properly, legally, and regulated?
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Most miscarriages happen before the mother even realizes she is/was pregnant unless they were trying to get pregnant and used an at home test to see if they are pregnant. Most of the time before the woman even misses a period. That is very natural.

What is unnatural is ending a confirmed pregnancy. If you're a parent this is when you first go to the OB/GYN and see via ultrasound the heartbeat and the life growing in the mother. Around 10-12 weeks typically if my memory serves me from our kids. But if may have improved with technology (its been more than a decade since our youngest was born). The percentage of these pregnancies that would go full-term at this point is around 95% or higher. THAT is an unnatural ending of a life.
 
dado6 said:
We have 30-somethings that still can't survive without a connection to their mother. Where does that leave them?
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LOL. Those 30-somethings are out making babies that their mothers, who they are still connected to, end up raising them because the 30-somethings can't.
 
No abortions for fetal anomalies in Cincy hospitals

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2016/01/26/abortion-ohio-department-health-christ-hospital-cincinnati/79060688/

Women seeking abortions after diagnoses of fatal fetal anomalies can no longer have the procedure at a Cincinnati hospital.

The last hospital in Greater Cincinnati to allow these abortions, The Christ Hospital in Mount Auburn, two months ago stopped permitting physicians to perform them, as part of a policy obtained by The Enquirer.

An Enquirer inquiry into the policy change showed that Christ -- like other hospitals throughout Ohio -- had failed to report its abortions to state officials, as required by state law. The hospital has since told state officials it performed 59 abortions in the last five and a half years.

Christ's new one-paragraph policy, which took effect Nov. 20, says physicians may terminate pregnancies only "in situations deemed to be a threat to the life of the mother." That's in line with policies and practices at the region's four other Ohio hospital systems.

Any woman seeking to terminate a pregnancy after a fetal anomaly diagnosis now must travel out of Greater Cincinnati or seek an appointment at Planned Parenthood
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winbypin said:
Most miscarriages happen before the mother even realizes she is/was pregnant unless they were trying to get pregnant and used an at home test to see if they are pregnant. Most of the time before the woman even misses a period. That is very natural.

What is unnatural is ending a confirmed pregnancy. If you're a parent this is when you first go to the OB/GYN and see via ultrasound the heartbeat and the life growing in the mother. Around 10-12 weeks typically if my memory serves me from our kids. But if may have improved with technology (its been more than a decade since our youngest was born). The percentage of these pregnancies that would go full-term at this point is around 95% or higher. THAT is an unnatural ending of a life.
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Got it. Pregnancy is more "legit" after 10-12 weeks. Some would say at conception...but I guess we are making progress. So if abortion was illegal, and obviously you must know that women would still get them, and men would still pressure them to, and hate to tell you miscarriages do occur after 10 weeks, how would you keep track of when the miscarriage occurred, and when it should be investigated? Pretty big brother stuff, but tough to have a law you cant enforce.
 
Why am I not surprised at this smoke and mirrors maneuver to use miscarriages as a defense for abortions. :rolleyes:
 
MoeDude said:
Why am I not surprised at this smoke and mirrors maneuver to use miscarriages as a defense for abortions. :rolleyes:
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Kind of a huge difference between an act of nature and a conscious choice ending a pregnancy, wouldn't you think?
 
MoeDude said:
Why am I not surprised at this smoke and mirrors maneuver to use miscarriages as a defense for abortions. :rolleyes:
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Cheer up. As dado posted women in Cincy can no longer go to hospital to end a pregnancy, even due to fatal anomalies. No brain, no skull, no problem. Congrats!
 
TigerPaw said:
Got it. Pregnancy is more "legit" after 10-12 weeks. Some would say at conception...but I guess we are making progress. So if abortion was illegal, and obviously you must know that women would still get them, and men would still pressure them to, and hate to tell you miscarriages do occur after 10 weeks, how would you keep track of when the miscarriage occurred, and when it should be investigated? Pretty big brother stuff, but tough to have a law you cant enforce.
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I am well aware that miscarriages can happen after 10 weeks but at a much lower rate. Doctors will tell you that once you see that heartbeat (and provided its at a healthy rate) the chances of miscarriage drop drastically (you can't deny the statistics or science on this point). At some point in the pregnancy (I think around 20 weeks) the terms change from miscarriage to still birth.

The human body (women of course) has a very natural way to rid themselves of non-viable pregnancies. You will say its evolution....I say its God's design. Either way, I believe we both agree that "function" exists regardless of how it got there.

And shame on men who pressure women to have abortions. But natural miscarriages are not the same as abortions.
 
TigerPaw said:
Cheer up. As dado posted women in Cincy can no longer go to hospital to end a pregnancy, even due to fatal anomalies. No brain, no skull, no problem. Congrats!
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That isn't true. It's pretty clear you didn't read the article.

Christ was in hot water for not reporting their abortion cases to the state, which they are required by law to do. When the state realized they had not gotten any reports from Christ, they asked them why they had not reported them, knowing full well they performed them. Christ hastily reported the most recent cases and changed the policy to try to prevent any future investigation. Hospitals can lose accreditation for not reporting procedures, whether it be abortions or routine surgeries. This as nothing to do with liberal vs. conservative. They did not follow state law and put their accreditation on the line.

You also didn't read what they changed the policy to. It's been changed to cases that "there is deemed threat to the life of the mother". With the proper documentation, any pregnancy can be sold as a "threat" to the life of the mother. Any pregnancy has a small percentage of threatening the life of the mother, nothing is ever 0%. The particular cases they were discussing, are fetuses with fatal malformations or underdevelopments. These are all high risk pregnancies and represent a significantly higher threat to the life of the mother. All would it would require is a visit to a Perinatologist and an agreeing Obstetrician to determine it would be more risky to continue the pregnancy than to terminate.

"It's safer to terminate the pregnancy than to let the pregnancy go, because there's more risks to a full-term pregnancy than there are to terminate under 20 weeks" gestation"

^ This is verbatim what their documentation required prior to the policy change, and that is exactly what it will require now.

Since I can already tell you are warming up to tell us how conservative want mothers to die, maybe digest a bit of this and realize that this was never a conservative vs liberal issue, and essentially nothing will be changed.
 
You still did not answer the question. I know the difference too. But how, when, and who determines that?

To make it illegal, in practice, you would have to confirm when the mother knew or suspected, when and how the alleged miscarriage occurred, have the remains, and conduct some type of medical examination including with the mother, to determine cause. Are you prepared for that or just plan to wing it?
 
TigerPaw said:
You still did not answer the question. I know the difference too. But how, when, and who determines that?

To make it illegal, in practice, you would have to confirm when the mother knew or suspected, when and how the alleged miscarriage occurred, have the remains, and conduct some type of medical examination including with the mother, to determine cause. Are you prepared for that or just plan to wing it?
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Is this one of those famous strawmen we hear so much about?

Who said anything about making miscarriages illegal?
 
TigerPaw said:
You still did not answer the question. I know the difference too. But how, when, and who determines that?

To make it illegal, in practice, you would have to confirm when the mother knew or suspected, when and how the alleged miscarriage occurred, have the remains, and conduct some type of medical examination including with the mother, to determine cause. Are you prepared for that or just plan to wing it?
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It really wouldn't be that hard. Most women who miscarry present to an Emergency Room because they have some symptom, whether it be bleeding or pain, even if they didn't know they were pregnant. This always ends up resulting in a pelvic exam, pretty easy to tell if there was any surgical manipulation from just a pelvic exam.

Hormones can be measured.

A woman with a viable pregnancy with little to no risk factors for miscarriage who spontaneously miscarries is a little suspect.

To answer your question, a lot of this is already done. There is very little that would have to be added to tell the difference. Any woman with multiple miscarriages is always evaluated for secondary causes, so that would be flagged as well.
 
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