Philosophy Question: Is atheism real?
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Sykotyk
Well-known member
I can't lift my house. But I know how it got there....
But you're not God, creator of all things.
Long argument, so strap in.
Imagine, if you will, a conversation with a theist and an atheist:
Theist: God is defined as omnipotent, omniscient, and a being of that which nothing greater can be conceived.
Atheist: There is not a God(s) and I refuse to believe in the foundations and conceptions of a God(s).
Theist: A God is omniscient, it knows about all. It knows every detail, large or small about everything. A God is omniscient because there is no other being or character that knows more.
Atheist: It is impossible for any being or character to know everything. This does not convince me to deny the conception of a God.
Theist: A God is omnipotent. A God can do anything. It has unlimited power and there is no other being or character that can interfere, or have more power than the omnipotent God.
Atheist: There is no being that can know all and do all. This is only an idea that is contigent upon our mind conceptualizing this. Therefore, since only our minds are creating this idea, there being a God is an act of our mind portraying flawed ideas.
Theist: God is that which nothing greater can be conceived. The very last concept in our ideas of what a God is; is that which nothing greater can be conceived. The concept of a God at that point is considered omnipotent and omniscient, as a result.
Atheist: Our ideas are a flawed conception and are fatal misunderstandings about our minds. The point in which nothing greater can be conceived is proof that our minds cannot affirm whether there is or is not a God.
Theist: The mere quality of a flawed mind proves that there is a concept greater than what we can conceptualize, thus being God. If our ideas are proof of misconceptions, then all conceptions must be contentious. As a result, no mind can affirm or disprove any concept.
Atheist: Correct. Our minds are flawed, therefore there cannot be any reason to confirm the exisitence of a God.
Theist: Exactly. If God can exist in the mind, then it can exist, therefore, you can only deny the existence of a God if you deny that there is nothing greater than which you can conceive. Therefore, you have to acknowledge one's concept of a God, otherwise you cannot deny what you are attempting to deny.
Atheist: There is no God. I have no argument as to why there is or is not one, and I cannot disprove one's idea without affirming it. To do so, I would have to deny my own ideas, meaning I would have to deny there is no God without a flawed argument. Since God is that which nothing greater can be conceived, then I would essentially have to be a God to argue there is no God.
Theist: There is a God because it is omnipotent and omniscient, thus being without flaws, and operating beyond our conception of our reality.
This is known as the "ontological argument for the existence of god". It's an old philosophical argument and a very flawed & weak one, IMO. It dates back hundreds of years. The counter-argument often goes like this: You can imagine a perfect, flawless island, but that does not mean it exists.
I never did understand this argument. It seems to easy to dismiss. Maybe I am missing something. There are many stronger arguments for the existence of god (or God), IMO.
Steel Valley FB
Well-known member
I was told as a kid, as many of us were, that we don’t dream in color. I told this person that he was both right and wrong at the same time. Why?
MasonComet
U. S. American
Again, a weak argument. I actually forgot what we were discussing.... oh OK.... you were stating that atheism does not exist.
Atheism is not a belief but merely the disbelief of any God. Of course "God" would have to be defined. Just because "God" is defined does not automatically make it believable. To not believe in God or Gods can be seen in two ways. You recognize that god/gods exist but you do not believe in them or you do not believe that god/gods actually exist. Since the latter is a possibility then Atheism does exist.
I believe in Sacred Geometry therefore I believe in Intelligent Design. It does not mean I believe in a biblical god but I recognize a superior intelligence outside our knowledge of understanding. Of course I believe physical reality is an illusion and we exist in this plain for the sole purpose of feeling emotion.......
I give you credit for going to a place where you recognize there has to be an intelligent explanation for the order and degree of functionability in the world. The denial of that is where I have problems with atheism on a philosophical level.
What one ascribes that intelligence to is where faith comes in - and that can go in a variety of directions. Although Sacred Geometry is a new one for me.
And, we are back to square one: where did the intelligent designer come from? Another even more intelligent designer? And so forth...ad infinitum?I give you credit for going to a place where you recognize there has to be an intelligent explanation for the order and degree of functionability in the world. The denial of that is where I have problems with atheism on a philosophical level.
What one ascribes that intelligence to is where faith comes in - and that can go in a variety of directions. Although Sacred Geometry is a new one for me.
Some will argue that the intelligent designer always existed (or I often hear something like "the intelligent designer exists outside of space and time"...whatever that is supposed to mean). Why not just stop and say "maybe the universe always existed" or better yet, "we don't know" instead of adding another layer (or two...or three) of "unknowns"?
Is there a god or gods or God or an intelligent designer or Sacred Geometry? I don't know (and neither does anyone else), but I personally don't believe so.
Yes, some people come to the exact place you are at.
I would say that the order and laws that govern nature and the world around us indicate that they were intelligently set in place. The complexity of non-living and living things, and the multitude of functioning micro systems all integrating into a functioning macro ecosystem gives us some strong indications that something remarkably intelligent and powerful made that happen. The alternative is that it happened by accident. When you start calculating the odds of order and laws forming by chance, even over eons of time, you go to an absurd place.
But reason only tells us what is most likely. It does not inform us of who or what the source of the intelligence and order is. That's where metaphysics comes in and people go in a bunch of directions at that point. Certainly, belief is a matter of individual will and it cannot be coerced, proven right, or proven wrong by reason or science, so one's metaphysics has to be respected on those grounds. FWIW
I'll borrow some text..... to help you kind of understand the complex but simplicity of Sacred Geometry.... (simply put, a study of patterns)
"Sacred geometry may be understood as a worldview of pattern recognition, a complex system of religious symbols and structures involving space, time and form. According to this view the basic patterns of existence are perceived as sacred. By connecting with these, a believer contemplates the Great Mysteries, and the Great Design. By studying the nature of these patterns, forms and relationships and their connections, insight may be gained into the mysteries - the laws and lore of the Universe.
Reality is a consciousness construct set in linear time to experience and record human emotions. Reality is based on science and math - algorithms. The term "sacred geometry" is often used by archaeologists, anthropologists, geometricians, and metaphysicians to encompass the religious, philosophical, and spiritual beliefs that have sprung up around this geometry in various cultures during the course of the human biogenetic experiment.
Sacred Geometry is abbreviated SG referencing Stargate, the Wheel of Time or Karma through which we experience and evolve. We are soul sparks of light having a physical experience, our consciousness spiral down through the patterns of the golden ratio, now about to reverse the spiral (spin) and return to source consciousness and light. To understand reality is to focus on the patterns that have repeated throughout time, as if on a higher octave with each programmed experience for the souls. Science and science fiction are merging in the twenty first century when all becomes clear and the nature of reality, as based on a sacred geometric design, is understood."
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I'm not in any shape or form trying to convince, change the belief of anyone but this is what I have been into for some time now. That does not mean that tomorrow I could believe in something totally different. I'll try and answer your questions based on my belief.
Where did intelligent design come from? It came from one point of consciousness.
Time? Time is linear. One thing happens after another. The problem is with plains of existence. To us in this plain time is defined as linear. Our reality though is an illusion of linear time in order to feel/experience emotions. Since our reality is an illusion so is time. In essence everything past,present, and future all happen simultaneously. (this kind of throws free will out the window but that is another discussion). Since time is an illusion and everything happens simultaneously then everything has always been. No beginning, no end.
I have no idea or the intelligence to comprehend existing outside of time. We are not suppose to know and that is why we are in a disconnect state of consciousness.
Why I believe in intelligent design? I open my eyes and just see it. I mean if we want to believe in the big bang theory then where did the matter come from to begin with???? To me it is simple.... I just close my eyes and imagine the matter, the explosion, the forming of galaxies, forming of life...... and I did that with just one thought. One point of consciousness.
Found this video which explains things easier..... just ignore the computer plug near the end.....
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IVCguy and vamps, thanks for the thoughtful, informative and civil responses. This is a very personal topic that often gets overly heated, especially when dealing with "faith". I like to hear all sides.
It is mankind's most important question: "How did we get here?" or "Where did we come from?" Mankind has offered many possible answers (including Sacred Geometry), and, most likely, only one is correct. But, try as we might to crack the puzzle, the answer remains that we just don't know.
From what I understand, the new James Webb Space Telescope is NOT finding the evidence for the Big Bang Theory that scientists had expected. Back to the drawing board! Maybe (probably!) humans will never know and understand.
It is mankind's most important question: "How did we get here?" or "Where did we come from?" Mankind has offered many possible answers (including Sacred Geometry), and, most likely, only one is correct. But, try as we might to crack the puzzle, the answer remains that we just don't know.
From what I understand, the new James Webb Space Telescope is NOT finding the evidence for the Big Bang Theory that scientists had expected. Back to the drawing board! Maybe (probably!) humans will never know and understand.
Sykotyk
Well-known member
You dream in your language. You were taught your language. French dream in French. English speakers dream in English. If you never learn language you still dream. If you saw lots of black and white TV growing up is imaginable that you'd dream in the form you're familiar with as input.