NCAA Tourney thread

nooks

Well-known member
If yer gonna lose the NCAA title game...Gonzaga just showed you how its done.
You get outplayed, outshot, outrebounded, out coached & out hustled...
That way you walk away with no excuses, no second guessing and you can proudly head home with your your head held low & tail between your legs where it belongs... Perfect way to blow a perfect season.
 

Omar

Well-known member
They had a lot of hype this year as the best team, but I've never heard anyone say that they're the best program.
Cowherd said it. This is the same issue I had with how the media treated Tony Bennett & UVA. They hype these coaches/ programs as elite but don’t treat them as you would elite programs when they fail.
 

Stirred not Shaken

Well-known member
If yer gonna lose the NCAA title game...Gonzaga just showed you how its done.
You get outplayed, outshot, outrebounded, out coached & out hustled...
That way you walk away with no excuses, no second guessing and you can proudly head home with your your head held low & tail between your legs where it belongs... Perfect way to blow a perfect season.
Defense wins championships, Zags def. UCLA by outscoring the Bruins, Baylor was the better overall team.
 

USA70PP

Well-known member
I've said it most of the season, the big ten overall is over rated. Once you get past the first 4 teams, it's pretty mediocre and even Iowa, Ohio State, Michigan and Illinois have flaws. The lack of a non-conference season really skewed the overall look, and much of the basketball interest across the country is in the east and midwest.
That said I think Ohio State and Illinois can get to the final four. I think Livers being out hurts Michigan, they also rely alot on the freshman center. One game where he's saddled with fouls can be detrimental to them. Iowa is too exposed to a bad shooting night to win 6 games in a row. Heck, Indiana beat them twice this year.
And let's call the MSU/ UCLA game for what it is, it was a man-made ratings grab. I'm sure that game got the biggest number by far last night. Most of American could care less about App State/ Texas Southern/ Drake/ Norfolk State, etc. Not sad Izzo and Sparty are done.
I think the B1G basketball this year suffered from the SEC football syndrome. Rank the teams in the league high and then tout how many top ten teams you beat as you go through the regular season.
 

Raymo

Well-known member
Thank you Baylor and CONGRATES for outstanding game,you guys were second fiddle all year.Don't have to hear about the Wonderful world of Zags anymore,they never seem to make it.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
It felt like an actually somewhat satisfying end to the tournament IMO. The tournament format usually provides for a lot of excitement but isn't all that good at consistently crowning the best team as champion compared to a playoff format. This year we ended up with the two teams that were pretty much the consensus top two teams all year in the finals.

Gonzaga looks dead from the tip, but I'm not sure the result would have been different if they were fresher. Baylor looked a lot more athletic and was undoubtedly a lot more physical, which presented a lot of matchup issues that forced the Zags into playing a lot of zone even when they were down by 15+. Offense usually trumps defense from the second weekend on, and Baylor shot it extremely well from three and got a ton of extra easy chances off of beating up Gonzaga on the offensive glass and running hard off of live ball turnovers. It's almost impossible to beat someone when they get nearly 20 more shots than you as Baylor did last night.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
Personally don't have any issue with the Zags being talked about as being "elite". They've averaged over 31 wins a year over the last decade and have advanced to at least the Sweet 16 in six consecutive tournaments. They are undoubtedly one of the best programs at this point and are becoming Duke West due to Mark Few hanging around for decades as opposed to bolting for a bigger job. Sooner than later he will win them at least 1 title.

The idea that you need a title to be legit is moronic due to the nature of the sport creating ample opportunity for upsets along with the one and done tournament format. The final AP #1 ranked team has only won it all 4 times since the field was expanded to 64 in 1985. The champion is often not the "best team", although with the way this year and the tournament played out I'd be comfortable labeling Baylor as the best team.
 

14Red

Well-known member
It felt like an actually somewhat satisfying end to the tournament IMO. The tournament format usually provides for a lot of excitement but isn't all that good at consistently crowning the best team as champion compared to a playoff format. This year we ended up with the two teams that were pretty much the consensus top two teams all year in the finals.

Gonzaga looks dead from the tip, but I'm not sure the result would have been different if they were fresher. Baylor looked a lot more athletic and was undoubtedly a lot more physical, which presented a lot of matchup issues that forced the Zags into playing a lot of zone even when they were down by 15+. Offense usually trumps defense from the second weekend on, and Baylor shot it extremely well from three and got a ton of extra easy chances off of beating up Gonzaga on the offensive glass and running hard off of live ball turnovers. It's almost impossible to beat someone when they get nearly 20 more shots than you as Baylor did last night.
I don't think there's any doubt the Zags were hungover from Saturday night, a big emotional win for a team who's used to cruising most games. I was finishing up the Reds game and didn't watch alot of the first half, but I really struggle with teams who are "permitted" to play physically. There is no doubt Gonzaga was more of a finesse team, the pass and cut alot and it's an attractive brand of basketball to watch. When I hear a team plays "physical" it makes me think the game wasn't officiated correctly. We see this in the big ten annually. Games turn into blood baths and the team who bench presses more has a better chance to win. Basketball isn't meant to be played that way.

Now don't get me wrong, Baylor is an excellent basketball team and deserved to win last night. Were they or are they significantly better? I don't think so. Baylor got off to a hot start, set the tone. Suggs got two quick fouls and that really made it difficult for Gonzaga to get back into the game. They play again next weekend and maybe Gonzaga wins? A closer game is called and maybe Gonzaga dominates at the free throw line, who knows?
The beauty of the NCAA tournament is it's a one and done format. Anyone, can be anyone on any day.
 

14Red

Well-known member
Personally don't have any issue with the Zags being talked about as being "elite". They've averaged over 31 wins a year over the last decade and have advanced to at least the Sweet 16 in six consecutive tournaments. They are undoubtedly one of the best programs at this point and are becoming Duke West due to Mark Few hanging around for decades as opposed to bolting for a bigger job. Sooner than later he will win them at least 1 title.

The idea that you need a title to be legit is moronic due to the nature of the sport creating ample opportunity for upsets along with the one and done tournament format. The final AP #1 ranked team has only won it all 4 times since the field was expanded to 64 in 1985. The champion is often not the "best team", although with the way this year and the tournament played out I'd be comfortable labeling Baylor as the best team.
Gonzaga is an elite program. You win as consistently as they do and you can be called that. I'd actually like to see Gonzaga be able to join the Pac-12 for basketball. It would be a win-win for both parties.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
Gonzaga is an elite program. You win as consistently as they do and you can be called that. I'd actually like to see Gonzaga be able to join the Pac-12 for basketball. It would be a win-win for both parties.
They're unfortunately on an island out there. It would be great if they along with BYU could get into the Pac-12 for basketball and maybe a few other sports. It would be a win for both parties.
 

Omar

Well-known member
Personally don't have any issue with the Zags being talked about as being "elite". They've averaged over 31 wins a year over the last decade and have advanced to at least the Sweet 16 in six consecutive tournaments. They are undoubtedly one of the best programs at this point and are becoming Duke West due to Mark Few hanging around for decades as opposed to bolting for a bigger job. Sooner than later he will win them at least 1 title.

The idea that you need a title to be legit is moronic due to the nature of the sport creating ample opportunity for upsets along with the one and done tournament format. The final AP #1 ranked team has only won it all 4 times since the field was expanded to 64 in 1985. The champion is often not the "best team", although with the way this year and the tournament played out I'd be comfortable labeling Baylor as the best team.
No, you have to win a title to be elite. That’s all there is to it. Stop babying Gonzaga, they want to be one of the big boys without being held to the same standards.
 

Omar

Well-known member
Gonzaga is an elite program. You win as consistently as they do and you can be called that. I'd actually like to see Gonzaga be able to join the Pac-12 for basketball. It would be a win-win for both parties.
No, they’re very good, you don’t get to be elite w/o a Title. When they win one, then they can be called elite.
 

Omar

Well-known member
Thank you Baylor and CONGRATES for outstanding game,you guys were second fiddle all year.Don't have to hear about the Wonderful world of Zags anymore,they never seem to make it.
Well, they’re already the preseason #1 for next yr.
 

tucson

Active member
No, you have to win a title to be elite. That’s all there is to it. Stop babying Gonzaga, they want to be one of the big boys without being held to the same standards.
So UNLV, Georgetown, Marquette, and UTEP are all elite programs? They all have a national title. By your simple standards those are elite programs. Which proves how misguided your standard is to begin with.
 

Omar

Well-known member
So UNLV, Georgetown, Marquette, and UTEP are all elite programs? They all have a national title. By your simple standards those are elite programs. Which proves how misguided your standard is to begin with.
No, bc winning a title isn’t the only requirement to be elite.
 

tucson

Active member
No, bc winning a title isn’t the only requirement to be elite.
This you?

No, you have to win a title to be elite. That’s all there is to it. Stop babying Gonzaga, they want to be one of the big boys without being held to the same standards.
No, they’re very good, you don’t get to be elite w/o a Title. When they win one, then they can be called elite.
 

Auggie

Well-known member
Does anyone know which conference refs officiated the title game? While I doubt it would have made that much of a difference they definitely let the big Baylor guys push around the slighter built Gonzaga players. In particular Timme was constantly body checked when he tried to make those quick moves with his back to the basket. Reminded me more of a B1G game than some other conferences.
 

tucson

Active member
What’s hard to understand? You have to win consistently at a high level for an extended period of time and win a Title to be elite.
It's not hard to understand, because I already believe an elite program is determined by a multitude of factors including, but not exclusively, a national championship. You were going on and on about national titles, which many programs have and not all are elite. If you posted your list of what you consider elite programs, I'm sure folks on here could poke holes in it just as you're doing with Gonzaga. Everyone has their two cents.
 

tucson

Active member
Does anyone know which conference refs officiated the title game? While I doubt it would have made that much of a difference they definitely let the big Baylor guys push around the slighter built Gonzaga players. In particular Timme was constantly body checked when he tried to make those quick moves with his back to the basket. Reminded me more of a B1G game than some other conferences.
I'm not sure if it was a singular conference. According to ESPN, the refs were Randy McCall, Keith Kimble, and Bo Boroski. From what I could tell McCall has done a lot of PAC-12/MWC games, Boroski B1G, and Kimble all over the place. I think they all have a lot of experience with different conferences and the NCAA tourney. I know that doesn't really answer your question, but that's what I got.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
No, you have to win a title to be elite. That’s all there is to it. Stop babying Gonzaga, they want to be one of the big boys without being held to the same standards.
I don't think there are many people I'd consider to be credible that would agree with that analysis. There's a lot of luck and chance that plays into winning a tournament title as opposed to consistently winning over the body of a season or the span of several years. I could agree with that if the last 3-4 rounds of the tournament were in a series format, but they aren't. It's a crapshoot and the vast majority of the time the best team isn't the last team standing. The format of the NCAA tournament is exciting and makes for great entertainment, but it does a terrible job of crowning a true champion compared to the college football playoff.

I don't particularly care about Gonzaga, but in the span of about 25 years or so they've gone from having next to no tradition and zero NCAA tournament appearances to being one of the best programs in the country and a high-level performer every year. Mark Few has taken that program from being a nobody low-major to being able to compete against anyone with regularity, and it's by far the best program building job anyone has done anywhere in modern college basketball history. This idea that they're unworthy of being recognized as being high-end until they win a crapshoot tournament is insane. You've even hinted at the same in this thread stating that you think they may have won yesterday if they were on the other side of the bracket for the semifinals.
 

Omar

Well-known member
I don't think there are many people I'd consider to be credible that would agree with that analysis. There's a lot of luck and chance that plays into winning a tournament title as opposed to consistently winning over the body of a season or the span of several years. I could agree with that if the last 3-4 rounds of the tournament were in a series format, but they aren't. It's a crapshoot and the vast majority of the time the best team isn't the last team standing. The format of the NCAA tournament is exciting and makes for great entertainment, but it does a terrible job of crowning a true champion compared to the college football playoff.

I don't particularly care about Gonzaga, but in the span of about 25 years or so they've gone from having next to no tradition and zero NCAA tournament appearances to being one of the best programs in the country and a high-level performer every year. Mark Few has taken that program from being a nobody low-major to being able to compete against anyone with regularity, and it's by far the best program building job anyone has done anywhere in modern college basketball history. This idea that they're unworthy of being recognized as being high-end until they win a crapshoot tournament is insane. You've even hinted at the same in this thread stating that you think they may have won yesterday if they were on the other side of the bracket for the semifinals.
But they didn’t win. They COULD win a title but until they actually accomplish that, they don’t deserve to be called elite.
 

Omar

Well-known member
It's not hard to understand, because I already believe an elite program is determined by a multitude of factors including, but not exclusively, a national championship. You were going on and on about national titles, which many programs have and not all are elite. If you posted your list of what you consider elite programs, I'm sure folks on here could poke holes in it just as you're doing with Gonzaga. Everyone has their two cents.
UK
UNC
Duke
Kansas
Nova
Mich St


All won at least 1 title in the last 20 yrs, and have consistently won at a high amount in the Regular season.
 

Omar

Well-known member
Michigan state is not on Gonzaga’s level and MSUs plays in an awful conference
So does Gonzaga. And just like Gonzaga, they’ve been to several FFs recently and lost. Unlike Gonzaga, they have a Title in the last 20 yrs.
 
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