Mileage/Training Methods

[Mr.K]

So I was just wondering what everyone thought was appropriate mile and training methods. Also, how do some schools do their mileage? Some run together as a team, others dont run together at all until August training starts. And do they spread their runs out like some people, example: run twice a day, 4 miles per run. Just post what you think. Here's what I have it at:

Freshman:350-425
Seems low, but you dont want to overwork freshman.

Sophmores: 425-500
Should have a better idea on what right for them, still dont want to push to hard

Juniors: 500-550
Seems about right

Seniors: 550-?
Not really sure...

I am not a fan at all of twice a day running, doesnt build up any endurance. Just go do it all at once instead of spread apart

 

[twbb]

Are these mileages for...during CC season? Summer? Winter, after CC before track?

 

[Mr.K]

Are these mileages for...during CC season? Summer? Winter, after CC before track?

My bad... I was talking summer miles going into CC. These are just rough estimates

 

[Mr. Slippery]

So I was just wondering what everyone thought was appropriate mile and training methods. Also, how do some schools do their mileage? Some run together as a team, others dont run together at all until August training starts. And do they spread their runs out like some people, example: run twice a day, 4 miles per run. Just post what you think. Here's what I have it at:

Freshman:350-425
Seems low, but you dont want to overwork freshman.

Sophmores: 425-500
Should have a better idea on what right for them, still dont want to push to hard

Juniors: 500-550
Seems about right

Seniors: 550-?
Not really sure...

I am not a fan at all of twice a day running, doesnt build up any endurance. Just go do it all at once instead of spread apart

I am also a believer in the idea that it's better to increase the length of a few runs each week than it is to increase the number of runs. Most kids don't run anywhere near enough miles in a day to where they really need to be doing doubles. However, if doing some doubles is the only way a kid can get in more miles, then go for it.

 

[Mr.K]

I am also a believer in the idea that it's better to increase the length of a few runs each week than it is to increase the number of runs. Most kids don't run anywhere near enough miles in a day to where they really need to be doing doubles. However, if doing some doubles is the only way a kid can get in more miles, then go for it.

Agreed, but if kids are just doing doubles because they cant do the longer ones, then I dont think thats right. Because when season hits, they might not be able to do do as well on the longer runs

 

[Mr. Slippery]

Agreed, but if kids are just doing doubles because they cant do the longer ones, then I dont think thats right. Because when season hits, they might not be able to do do as well on the longer runs

But if they can't do the longer runs during the offseason and are only running shorter singles, then they'll do even worse with the longer runs when the season hits.

With running some doubles though, at least a kid can learn to handle a certain weekly mileage even if they can't do the longer runs.

 

[ccrunner609]

So I was just wondering what everyone thought was appropriate mile and training methods. Also, how do some schools do their mileage? Some run together as a team, others dont run together at all until August training starts. And do they spread their runs out like some people, example: run twice a day, 4 miles per run. Just post what you think. Here's what I have it at:

Freshman:350-425
Seems low, but you dont want to overwork freshman.

Sophmores: 425-500
Should have a better idea on what right for them, still dont want to push to hard

Juniors: 500-550
Seems about right

Seniors: 550-?
Not really sure...

I am not a fan at all of twice a day running, doesnt build up any endurance. Just go do it all at once instead of spread apart

LOL.......seriously. Before posting those numbers please do the math. Considering the 10 week summer break (only 8 weeks if you dont count mandatories) your mileage breaks down to:

freshman- average 35-42 miles per week
sophomore- average 42-50 MPW
Junior- 50-55 MPW
Senior- 55+ MPW

Seeing how most professionals only recommend a 10% increase in mileage a week to reduce the risk of injury....there is no way any runner of any caliber is going to get that many miles in over a summer. THe average per week might be the peak weak at the end but they aurely arent averaging that.

 

[moemancc]

LOL.......seriously. Before posting those numbers please do the math. Considering the 10 week summer break (only 8 weeks if you dont count mandatories) your mileage breaks down to:

freshman- average 35-42 miles per week
sophomore- average 42-50 MPW
Junior- 50-55 MPW
Senior- 55+ MPW

Seeing how most professionals only recommend a 10% increase in mileage a week to reduce the risk of injury....there is no way any runner of any caliber is going to get that many miles in over a summer. THe average per week might be the peak weak at the end but they aurely arent averaging that.

That seems high in total number of miles. When I am assuming freshman I am assuming someone who has never ever run before. 42 mpw for someone who has never run before? seems high. I like 35 mpw peak for frosh, 40 for soph, 45 jr, and 50 senior. Now sometimes if a kid has run for a few years I can give him more mileage or if certain types of seniors have the ability to go higher will go to 55, but typically not more than that.

 

[madman]

We aren't dealing with widgets. We're dealing with flesh-and-blood people that mature at different rates, have different consitutions, etc. I don't mind the idea of rough numbers for a "typical" freshman, etc. but hard-and-fast rules for every freshman, sophomore, and junior? Really?

Know your athletes and how they respond to training. I have seniors that just can't get to more than 35-40 mpw without frequent injuries and have had freshman that have easily run 40-50 mpw without any problems.

Get them to use an online training journal that you can follow and get them to give honest assessments of how they're feeling. Use slow steady buildups and watch for frequent aches/pains or ongoing feelings of fatigue - these often indicate a real problem is on the way unless they back off.

Practically speaking I find available time being a bigger hurdle to higher mileage than the mileage itself. Running even 60 miles/week with any reasonable emphasis on balanced development of the 5 biomotor skills is about the peak mileage I can get out of high school athletes. With two workouts/day you can get to more, but I think nearly every motivated athlete I've had already has trouble getting enough sleep so there's no way I would ever encourage them to do morning runs.

When they get to college and can schedule classes to begin at 10 am, two workouts/day becomes feasible and helpful. A morning workout isn't always about increasing mileage. That morning run can really help flush out the system and prepare you for a hard afternoon workout.

 

[TheRunningMan]

That seems high in total number of miles. When I am assuming freshman I am assuming someone who has never ever run before. 42 mpw for someone who has never run before? seems high. I like 35 mpw peak for frosh, 40 for soph, 45 jr, and 50 senior. Now sometimes if a kid has run for a few years I can give him more mileage or if certain types of seniors have the ability to go higher will go to 55, but typically not more than that.

This mentality.....

Is why we rarely produce nationally ranked teams and depth is so thin year after year at State. Mileage is the answer, theres no getting around it.

 

[moemancc]

This mentality.....

Is why we rarely produce nationally ranked teams and depth is so thin year after year at State. Mileage is the answer, theres no getting around it.

Agreed mileage helps immensely, and running more will certainly help you to get better. But the simple fact is at the high school level you do not have enough control over your athlete to work at high levels of mileage. These kids are still developing physically and too much stress will only cause problems. You have so many factors that are out of your control as a coach. You have school, social events, other school functions, homework, etc. that cut into the amount of time you have with the kid. Also you cannot control how much the kid sleeps, what the kid eats, and everything else that affects training. Because you have far less control over what the kid does and we are more worried about keeping kids interested and staying on the team, the solution is to make it a bit easier for them. Plus I am not sure why a bit less mileage at the high school level for kids who have only been running since they were 14 for the most part is the reason for why we havent been as successful at the national and international level. We dont have as many young feeder programs in the area as we should, and having sports like football take major precedent over a sport like this, along with the explosion of interest in lacrosse, and now rugby have really hurt our chances at getting athletes.

 

[Track XC]

do do

You said do do! :laugh: arty: arty:

 

[Mr.K]

LOL.......seriously. Before posting those numbers please do the math. Considering the 10 week summer break (only 8 weeks if you dont count mandatories) your mileage breaks down to:

freshman- average 35-42 miles per week
sophomore- average 42-50 MPW
Junior- 50-55 MPW
Senior- 55+ MPW

Seeing how most professionals only recommend a 10% increase in mileage a week to reduce the risk of injury....there is no way any runner of any caliber is going to get that many miles in over a summer. THe average per week might be the peak weak at the end but they aurely arent averaging that.

This is from when school ends to the first meet. My bad

 

[Mr.K]

But if they can't do the longer runs during the offseason and are only running shorter singles, then they'll do even worse with the longer runs when the season hits.

With running some doubles though, at least a kid can learn to handle a certain weekly mileage even if they can't do the longer runs.

Very true, Im speaking for the better runners mainly. Some of them just do two a days beacuse its easier and they dont want to do the long ones. I can understand how it would be good for some runner though

 

[psycho_dad]

This mentality.....

Is why we rarely produce nationally ranked teams and depth is so thin year after year at State. Mileage is the answer, theres no getting around it.

So, you have researched this? Are there any other factors that contribute to "Nationally ranked teams"? What are you basing that the Ohio state meet is thin in depth year after year. What is that compared to?

 

[mathking]

This mentality.....

Is why we rarely produce nationally ranked teams and depth is so thin year after year at State. Mileage is the answer, theres no getting around it.

I don't think this is a justified assertion.

This is something I looked at last year, so I gathered some data then. Ohio actually slightly overproduces nationally ranked teams. (Based on number of USA today ranked teams by year, compared to Ohio's percentage of all high schools in the country. It is within statistical uncertainty, so it's most reasonable to say we produce about as many as you would expect.) Furthermore, when you look at nationally ranked CC schools, they are on the average large. York HS is on the small side and at around 2700 students is larger than all but a handful of Ohio high schools. For another example, The Woodlands has between 950 and 1000 students per grade. Carmel has over 4500 students. On the average Ohio's high schools are not much smaller than the typical U.S. high school, but Ohio has a much lower percentage of really large (over 2000, over 2500 and over 3000 student) high schools than you would predict based on our population. Or over 1000, 1250 or 1500 for single gender schools.

As for state meet depth being thin? Based on what? Ohio overproduces individuals who are HS All-Americans. Ohio also overproduces individuals who represent the US in international track and field competition as distance runners. (Both based on relative population comparisons.)

Futhermore, Ohio has plenty of schools that run significantly more miles than moemancc states. In the name of full disclosure, the mileage ranges he gives are really similar to what we do. There are many schools which run similar mileage and many which run more or a lot more.

 

[psycho_dad]

I was going to say, everyone knows that Mileage is not the answer. 42 is the answer.

 

[I'm-a-sports-guy.]

For me the summer mileage counts as 12 weeks. From about May 20th - August 20th. Saying this the mileage Mr.K put are pretty accurate.
Freshman 30 mpw
Sophomore 37.5 mpw
Junior 42 mpw
Senior 46-47 mpw

This is just average not taking into consideration of the increase over time.

 

[mathking]

I am also a believer in the idea that it's better to increase the length of a few runs each week than it is to increase the number of runs. Most kids don't run anywhere near enough miles in a day to where they really need to be doing doubles. However, if doing some doubles is the only way a kid can get in more miles, then go for it.

Not to change the subject, but this part of the thread intrigues me. Everything I (and the rest of our coaching staff) has read or learned at clinics in the past half a decade or so says there is very little value in two a day running, and there can be significant downside. The basic reason given seems to be that the potential increased cardiovascular fitness is not offset by the increased stress on the legs and the significant decrease in recovery due to breaking up the rest periods. Has anyone had significant experience (as athlete or coach) with running two times a day consistently? In college I did two workouts a day four days a week for a while, but the mornings were in all in the pool.

 

[said_aouita]

You can't put a specific number for mileage and HS kids, must also consider intensity. IMO- Too much emphasis nowadays on mileage and not enough on intensity. Too much long stuff, all you are doing is training the HS runner to run slow.

Bob Kennedy was running around 30-40 miles a week as a Senior but he'd also do repeat 800's around 2-flat.

Not many Kennedy's come along, but you must find a happy medium. Maybe even a willingness to train some athletes different then others.

 

[moemancc]

You can't put a specific number for mileage and HS kids, must also consider intensity. IMO- Too much emphasis nowadays on mileage and not enough on intensity. Too much long stuff, all you are doing is training the HS runner to run slow.

Bob Kennedy was running around 30-40 miles a week as a Senior but he'd also do repeat 800's around 2-flat.

Not many Kennedy's come along, but you must find a happy medium. Maybe even a willingness to train some athletes different then others.

I agree with this completely. That is why I'm not quite as big a fan of high mileage, but I do recognize the benefits of being able to handle a higher workload.

 

[cvctrackfan]

We don't even do mileage....we just run a couple of warm-up laps every day... and get at it.....:thumb:

 

[anna4runner]

I think the mileage depends on the runner and there commitment to get better. The elite high school runners in the state are getting anywhere between 60-80 miles a week in the summer and it pays off with 15's or 16's at state. And I believe splitting the workout into two(run in the morning,night) is a good idea to get more miles in especially for high schoolers who are usually very busy with school and sometimes work and other school clubs and commitments.

 

[said_aouita]

I think the mileage depends on the runner and there commitment to get better. The elite high school runners in the state are getting anywhere between 60-80 miles a week in the summer and it pays off with 15's or 16's at state. And I believe splitting the workout into two(run in the morning,night) is a good idea to get more miles in especially for high schoolers who are usually very busy with school and sometimes work and other school clubs and commitments.

If running 60-80 miles a week during the summer, what is their average pace?
(imo)
Doubling up to get two workouts a day, hopefully one of the two workouts is more intense then the other. Padding the weekly mileage with doubles during the summer (say an easy 3-5 miles in the AM) isn't always a bad thing. Once school starts, hopefully the one a day team workout is enough.

 

[Mr.K]

Not to change the subject, but this part of the thread intrigues me. Everything I (and the rest of our coaching staff) has read or learned at clinics in the past half a decade or so says there is very little value in two a day running, and there can be significant downside. The basic reason given seems to be that the potential increased cardiovascular fitness is not offset by the increased stress on the legs and the significant decrease in recovery due to breaking up the rest periods. Has anyone had significant experience (as athlete or coach) with running two times a day consistently? In college I did two workouts a day four days a week for a while, but the mornings were in all in the pool.

A lot of freshman do the two a day training because they just think its an easier way to get in miles. When the season comes, they aren't performing nearly as well as they should or want to. I don't think some people realize how important summer training is and how much of a difference it can make

 

[mathking]

Pretty much everything I have read or learned recently points to not doing two running workouts a day. Our other coaches have had similar experiences in the literature, at clinics and at USATF training. The last clinic I went to they were pretty adamant that regularly running twice a day cuts down on the ability of the legs to recuperate because it breaks up the rest interval. I know of several places that moved strongly to two a day workouts in the 1970s or early 1980s, but I am wondering how many people regularly do them now and what kind of results they see.

As I said, I did two a days in college, but my morning workouts were swimming or running in the pool. Which seemed to work for me. But one maxim we try to live by here is not to assume that just because you experience success after you do something that the success is because of the thing you did.

 

[anna4runner]

If running 60-80 miles a week during the summer, what is their average pace?
(imo)
Doubling up to get two workouts a day, hopefully one of the two workouts is more intense then the other. Padding the weekly mileage with doubles during the summer (say an easy 3-5 miles in the AM) isn't always a bad thing. Once school starts, hopefully the one a day team workout is enough.

I would imagine an easy pace during long runs say 7:30 or so. But during the summer im sure its good to mix in fartlek and tempo runs.

 

[psycho_dad]

Anna4runner; I know a lot of elite runners that only have done 35-40 as a max week for mileage. Boys and girls. In high school, kids only race 5k as a maximum. Why would you need to do more than 50 miles a week for a race of that length. It's more how those miles come about.

Mathking; Don't you have some of those kids that just do not know how to run or just can't run more than a mile or 2 at a time? They have to start somewhere and running twice a day might be away to just get them used to running.Sort of teaching them how to run. Also, haven't you come across those kids that absolutely believe they have to hit 70 miles in a week and you would rather have them run (2) 7.5 milers instead of one 15? Sort of trick them into running the mileage they think they need, but really give them something that might keep them from getting injured by running a long run they are not ready for.

I still think that what is lost on a lot of coaches is teaching kids how to race. Training and mileage is one thing, and I think that the majority of high school runners are trained much better than we were in the 80's. However, I think we raced better. Especially up front. I don't see nearly as much good racing in high school as I used to. Much better trained and the middle of the pack runners are better as a result. Kids are much better prepared to transition to college training, but the front runners do not race as well as they should.

I do not think tha 2 a days is a good workout schedule as a regular thing, but I know there are times when something short and sweet in the morning helps shake things out. I do know that

 

[Mr. Slippery]

Just so nobody gets confused about what I'm saying (hasn't happened yet on this topic), I believe that if a kid can hit the mileage he thinks he needs to hit by running singles, then that's what he or she should do. One of the difficult things about running longer races is the fact that you're on your feet for so long. I know darned well that when you're preparing for a marathon that running a 10 miler in the morning and a 10 miler later in the day is not even close to being a proxy for running a 20 miler, so yes I am a singles lover when I can get it.

However, if the kid feels he or she can't take the pounding of the relatively longer runs each time out that is required to hit the weekly mileage on singles, then break it up into some doubles. I'm merely looking at what alternatives a kid has if he or she can't run that 8 mile run (and I'm talking about kids who are physically capable of completing such runs since no reputable coach would ask a kid to do a run that long if they knew the kid was physically incapable of it). I'm thinking in terms of what recommendations a coach would make to kids who are running on their own over the summer and may find a stretch where they don't have time to do long runs:

You know how that goes where a kid stays up too late or oversleeps and doesn't have time to do that 8 miler before having to go to work and could only squeeze in 4 miles, and then the kid has plans to hang out with friends after work, and next thing you know it's going to be dark in an hour, and the kid only has 4 miles in for the day...

We all might like to think that our runners are totally committed and will follow everything we tell them to the letter, but at the end of the day, you're probably not going to keep them from being kids on summer vacation unless you're one of the really lucky coaches. Sometimes, you have to present alternatives that allow the kid to feel like he's doing some training without making him feel like he or she's a slave to your program.


Psycho Dad does bring up a good point though, and it's one I agree with. It's not so much the number of miles but how you go about reaching that number. You certainly don't want kids to be running miles just so they can be proud of the number they see at the end of the week.

Another great point that Psycho Dad mentions is about learning how to race. My brother once told me that was the main difference between HS running and college running. In HS, they get you ready to run. In college, they get you ready to race. I really think you have to treat the sport more like a college science course than a sport and set aside some time each week of practice for a lecture session where you can teach some of the finer points of running like basic nutrition, importance of hydration, getting proper rest, proper shoe care, situational things like conditions where it's good throw in a surge to break your competition (such as on a blind turn, at the base of a hill, after cresting a hill, etc), and the like. It may not be enough to Xerox a bunch of handouts on a topic and pass them out for the kids to read on their own because most either won't read the material or won't understand what they read. Spending a little time on some of these topics can go a long way. The kids' daily workouts would be like field labs for them since you could have them observe and record data in log form.

 

[mathking]

Anna4runner; I know a lot of elite runners that only have done 35-40 as a max week for mileage. Boys and girls. In high school, kids only race 5k as a maximum. Why would you need to do more than 50 miles a week for a race of that length. It's more how those miles come about.

Mathking; Don't you have some of those kids that just do not know how to run or just can't run more than a mile or 2 at a time? They have to start somewhere and running twice a day might be away to just get them used to running.Sort of teaching them how to run. Also, haven't you come across those kids that absolutely believe they have to hit 70 miles in a week and you would rather have them run (2) 7.5 milers instead of one 15? Sort of trick them into running the mileage they think they need, but really give them something that might keep them from getting injured by running a long run they are not ready for.

I still think that what is lost on a lot of coaches is teaching kids how to race. Training and mileage is one thing, and I think that the majority of high school runners are trained much better than we were in the 80's. However, I think we raced better. Especially up front. I don't see nearly as much good racing in high school as I used to. Much better trained and the middle of the pack runners are better as a result. Kids are much better prepared to transition to college training, but the front runners do not race as well as they should.

I do not think tha 2 a days is a good workout schedule as a regular thing, but I know there are times when something short and sweet in the morning helps shake things out. I do know that

I like to run in the morning too, and I wouldn't mind if we started school at 9:00 if we could practice in the morning rather than after school.

Psychodad, we do have some kids who just can't run more than a mile or too, and I grant that splitting up the mileage might be valuable for them. Although there is also something to be said for just getting them to push a little farther each time. It helps them feel like they are making progress. We had a new kid this year, senior who has never done a sport. He couldn't run two miles at the first practice. I remember the day he excitedly talked about his first six mile run. (And even more I remember when he was the only one on our team to PR at MMOC.)

I was wondering more about top end kids. I completely agree in not seeing the need for more than 50 miles. That is the highest we ever really go to. As I said, most of what I have heard in the literature and at clinics has been not to do two a days. Just wondering what people's experiences have been with it.

I really agree with the point about teaching kids to race well. The coach at one of our sister schools has made the point to me that when he started coaching in the late 70s and early 80s, he felt like he could beat most other coaches because so few people knew how to train athletes well. Now most (but not all) do know how to train well, so the key is getting kids to race well. I agree. I find it overall easier to teach racing in CC than in track. Kids get too focused on splits and running the perfect race in track and they forget to or don't want to race. I have found recently that I get some more success having them run some races outside their comfort zone. When they are not as familiar with the race they tend to rely more on just racing.

Another problem is just that some kids are not really mentally into racing. My daughter loves to swim, hates to race. This drives my wife crazy, but I have learned to be philosophical and realize that if she swims a lot she will be healthy and fit. So who cares if she doesn't want to compete? (OK, I still do care, but I have learned that is my problem, not hers.) I have some kids with talent who just don't like to race. For those kids we try to get them to focus on themselves, run their pace. But overall I prefer to get them thinking about racing their opponents. You can never tell when conditions will allow for a fast time, but you can always pass someone.