Meet the NEW 2-Mile Queen - KATIE CLUTE - 10:09.97 @ New Balance

JAVMAN83

Well-known member
Olmsted Falls distance great, Katie Clute, just took down the 10-year old Ohio HS 2-mile record by 3.5 second in running 10:09.97 for 6th place at New Balance Nationals in Philly.

Katie's splits:
76.79, 75.95, 76.10, 76.05 (5:04.87)
76.10, 76.66, 76.19, 76.17 (10:09.97)

I sure hope that there was a clock at the 3200m mark. Converted, Clute's run would be 10:06.44. Let us hope there was a clock at the 3200m so she can own the legit 3200m record as well.
 
 
Is it a high school record if she already graduated and the OHSAA state meet was completed weeks ago.
 
General HS records can be set through August 31 of an athlete's senior year UNLESS the athlete formally enters college/university and/or the athlete becomes a professional.
 
Is it a high school record if she already graduated and the OHSAA state meet was completed weeks ago.
The OHSAA would say "NO". They claim the high school season ends one week after the state meet. JAVMAN says "yes" because of what the US TRACK AND FIELD NEWS says and what the HIGH SCHOOL ANNUAL published by Jack Shepherd says that a high school mark can count up until a senior enrolls in a college class and begins college. I'm drawing a line on the track here. Whose side are you on zski71? the OHSAA or US TRACK AND FIELD NEWS
 
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In 2012, the OHSAA criteria were: within one week after the state meet, only high school runners in the race, and FAT at 1600M. Brannon finished the Dream Mile over two seconds faster than the existing 1600M state record at the time. There was a camera at 1500M (3:46.09) and at the mile (4:03.12), but not at 1600M. We filed an application for the record anyway... it would have been disrespectful not to. It was denied. The Adidas organizers were appalled. Although not an OHSAA record, it was without a doubt the fastest any Ohio high schooler had completed 1600M at the time and we list our School Records as 1500M - 3:46.09, 1600M - 4:01.71c and Mile - 4:03.12.
 
I stand with T&F News & the late Craig Whitmore on the general classification of HS records. OHSAA, and by extension NFHS records are a subset of those records. I clearly delineate on my all-time lists what are OHSAA records and what are Ohio HS records. One of the purposes of the depth and scope of my efforts is to clearly document all relevant information (when known) regarding particular performances so that future researchers can easily trace that performance and the circumstances surrounding those.
 
The OHSAA would say "NO". They claim the high school season ends one week after the state meet. JAVMAN says "yes" because of what the US TRACK AND FIELD NEWS says and what the HIGH SCHOOL ANNUAL published by Jack Shepherd says that a high school mark can count up until a senior enrolls in a college class and begins college. I'm drawing a line on the track here. Whose side are you on zski71? the OHSAA or US TRACK AND FIELD NEWS
I remember when the season extended one week beyond the state meet. For at least a few seasons now, the OHSAA has declared the season over on the date that corresponds to the 2nd day of the state meet. They list the end of season date on the calendar found on the left side of the track and field home page.

Because the end of the season is listed by date as opposed to being listed as "season ends when the state meet is completed," that begs the question of whether or not the OHSAA would have to pass an emergency measure to officially change the end of the season in the event that the state meet would be postponed to a third day - like if the weather would have forced the DI session to be completed on Sunday 2 weeks ago.
 
Thanks Javman. I remember incredible performances by distance runners like Brannon Kidder, Ron Addison, Bob Benz, John Zishka, Ricky Pittman, and a whole host of boys and girls distance runners, sprinters and field eventers that, without people like you and Craig Whitmore would see their historic performances vanish into the ether. Completely forgotten thanks to the thoughtless, irrational, archaic rule set forth by people who do not recognize how hard these athletes work and how rare it is to achieve these marks. The OHSAA rule covers all athletes of course, but in the case of a senior, how can they not recognize a mark set at our own national championships, regardless of whether a person has officially graduated or not? A graduation date is a random date set by the school. The athlete is still competing within their senior season. And regardless of class, it’s our sports national championship for God’s sake. Was this rule created by people that really understand the blood, sweat and tears these kids go thru to attain these heights? It’s a very cruel rule. These kids get to the end if an historic season, they are peaked, and against all odds achieve something incredible only to be denied by the fat cats in the suits. I understand maybe my frustration is just a Don Alexander thing. Maybe everyone agrees with the rule and it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been on the outside of the conventional. But I don’t think I’m alone. Actually, I may care more than the kids that set the marks. I think they just laugh, roll their eyes, and figure (correctly) that the rule was made up by a generation of people that don’t understand the sport and there is absolutely and apparently nothing anyone can do to change it. Kids are, if nothing else, very resilient by nature.

Analogy…look at the season as one race. The elite athlete gets to the very end of the race ready to break the string, realize a life long dream, and set an All-Time record. And then right before the finish line, a line of OHSAA officials stretches across the track to prevent them from finishing. Nice.

Lastly, don’t get me wrong…the accepted OHSAA marks are very impressive marks set by some of our All-Time best athletes. But many (most) of those marks are inferior to marks set at our own national championship/post-season invitationals. I look at the current OHSAA record list and feel real bad for the Kidder’s and Zishka’s and all the others who should without a shred of a doubt be on the list..

but aren’t.

Shaking my head….
 
First, congrats Don to Rae, Katie, and the girls on an outstanding 4x16 and the most evenly paced 2 mile I think I have ever seen. Those splits are remarkable.

Second, six of our boys school records are outside the OHSAA "season" - our 1600/mile (which Sonny Wilburn ran in the Ohio TFA Meet), our 5,000 and 10,000 records (ran by Pete Kummant and Jeff Wilhelm in the '75 Junior Nationals), and our triple jump, decathlon, and Hammer throws. As the opportunity to compete in five of those events is almost nonexistent during Ohio's outdoor season, we don't hesitate to list them as records, and always have.

When it comes to school records, though, we might have one of the older records still on the books - our Jav record dates back to 1937...
 
Thank you for the kind words. Mr. Whitmore was truly remarkable with the scope of his work & dedication. My younger days were at the end of the yards Era. Zishka was a senior when I was a freshman. Never got to watch him run, but I read about his exploits in T&F News. Winning the Jr. Natls in the 5k as a senior in 13:55 was a hilight. Still the Ohio HS record.

I'm just building on an already well-established foundation for those present & in the future that care to preserve the exploits of the HS athletes. Eventually, my day will be at an end, and I plan to leave several copies of documents with several public & private institutions for future researchers.
 
The OHSAA would say "NO". They claim the high school season ends one week after the state meet. JAVMAN says "yes" because of what the US TRACK AND FIELD NEWS says and what the HIGH SCHOOL ANNUAL published by Jack Shepherd says that a high school mark can count up until a senior enrolls in a college class and begins college. I'm drawing a line on the track here. Whose side are you on zski71? the OHSAA or US TRACK AND FIELD NEWS
Interesting differences. I believe the state HS record should be recorded during the HS season. Other out of season times can count as age related records.
 
Interesting differences. I believe the state HS record should be recorded during the HS season. Other out of season times can count as age related records.
Understandable, but lots of HS-aged athletes don't compete for a particular public or private HS. Yours and other's mindsets are focused around the concept of high school being a physical location instead of the point in which a student is in the process of matriculating. It is a concept that is stuck in the past.

As an FYI, MOST of the world doesn't NOT have any sports programs within a scholastic environment. They are primarily athletic club-based programs. The U.S. is an out-lier.
 
I get that but its why I say call it an 18u record. If you call It a HS record you are relating it to HS. We aren't adding home runs, goals scored, kills, TDs, etc from club teams to determine HS records.
 
Understandable, but lots of HS-aged athletes don't compete for a particular public or private HS.
It’s an association of high schools. In what world does it make sense for them to recognize a performance for their record book when it was made by somebody who wasn’t even competing for one of the member schools?
 
It’s an association of high schools. In what world does it make sense for them to recognize a performance for their record book when it was made by somebody who wasn’t even competing for one of the member schools?
Nobody is asking NFHS (i.e., OHSAA) to recognize performances beyond that association's season. General HS records only refer to high school-aged athletes, regardless of competing for a school, club, or unattached. The only criteria is that they have begun 9th grade and not reached 31 August of their senior year, not become professional, nor started post-HS education.
 
I get that but its why I say call it an 18u record. If you call It a HS record you are relating it to HS. We aren't adding home runs, goals scored, kills, TDs, etc from club teams to determine HS records.
No, a general HS record refers to the matriculation status of an athlete, not a scholastic institution.
 
Thanks Javman. I remember incredible performances by distance runners like Brannon Kidder, Ron Addison, Bob Benz, John Zishka, Ricky Pittman, and a whole host of boys and girls distance runners, sprinters and field eventers that, without people like you and Craig Whitmore would see their historic performances vanish into the ether. Completely forgotten thanks to the thoughtless, irrational, archaic rule set forth by people who do not recognize how hard these athletes work and how rare it is to achieve these marks. The OHSAA rule covers all athletes of course, but in the case of a senior, how can they not recognize a mark set at our own national championships, regardless of whether a person has officially graduated or not? A graduation date is a random date set by the school. The athlete is still competing within their senior season. And regardless of class, it’s our sports national championship for God’s sake. Was this rule created by people that really understand the blood, sweat and tears these kids go thru to attain these heights? It’s a very cruel rule. These kids get to the end if an historic season, they are peaked, and against all odds achieve something incredible only to be denied by the fat cats in the suits. I understand maybe my frustration is just a Don Alexander thing. Maybe everyone agrees with the rule and it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been on the outside of the conventional. But I don’t think I’m alone. Actually, I may care more than the kids that set the marks. I think they just laugh, roll their eyes, and figure (correctly) that the rule was made up by a generation of people that don’t understand the sport and there is absolutely and apparently nothing anyone can do to change it. Kids are, if nothing else, very resilient by nature.

Analogy…look at the season as one race. The elite athlete gets to the very end of the race ready to break the string, realize a life long dream, and set an All-Time record. And then right before the finish line, a line of OHSAA officials stretches across the track to prevent them from finishing. Nice.

Lastly, don’t get me wrong…the accepted OHSAA marks are very impressive marks set by some of our All-Time best athletes. But many (most) of those marks are inferior to marks set at our own national championship/post-season invitationals. I look at the current OHSAA record list and feel real bad for the Kidder’s and Zishka’s and all the others who should without a shred of a doubt be on the list..

but aren’t.

Shaking my head….
I agree with your sentiments but you lost me with this statement: “… the rule was made up by a generation of people that don’t understand the sport…”. Track and field is the oldest sport in human history. How could a previous generation not understand the sport? Their positions are certainly based on their life experiences but lack of understanding the sport surely can’t be a cause.
 
Thanks Javman. I remember incredible performances by distance runners like Brannon Kidder, Ron Addison, Bob Benz, John Zishka, Ricky Pittman, and a whole host of boys and girls distance runners, sprinters and field eventers that, without people like you and Craig Whitmore would see their historic performances vanish into the ether. Completely forgotten thanks to the thoughtless, irrational, archaic rule set forth by people who do not recognize how hard these athletes work and how rare it is to achieve these marks. The OHSAA rule covers all athletes of course, but in the case of a senior, how can they not recognize a mark set at our own national championships, regardless of whether a person has officially graduated or not? A graduation date is a random date set by the school. The athlete is still competing within their senior season. And regardless of class, it’s our sports national championship for God’s sake. Was this rule created by people that really understand the blood, sweat and tears these kids go thru to attain these heights? It’s a very cruel rule. These kids get to the end if an historic season, they are peaked, and against all odds achieve something incredible only to be denied by the fat cats in the suits. I understand maybe my frustration is just a Don Alexander thing. Maybe everyone agrees with the rule and it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been on the outside of the conventional. But I don’t think I’m alone. Actually, I may care more than the kids that set the marks. I think they just laugh, roll their eyes, and figure (correctly) that the rule was made up by a generation of people that don’t understand the sport and there is absolutely and apparently nothing anyone can do to change it. Kids are, if nothing else, very resilient by nature.

Analogy…look at the season as one race. The elite athlete gets to the very end of the race ready to break the string, realize a life long dream, and set an All-Time record. And then right before the finish line, a line of OHSAA officials stretches across the track to prevent them from finishing. Nice.

Lastly, don’t get me wrong…the accepted OHSAA marks are very impressive marks set by some of our All-Time best athletes. But many (most) of those marks are inferior to marks set at our own national championship/post-season invitationals. I look at the current OHSAA record list and feel real bad for the Kidder’s and Zishka’s and all the others who should without a shred of a doubt be on the list..

but aren’t.

Shaking my head….

Further to Mr. Alexander's points:

Elite athletes generally achieve historic performances when the peak of the training cycle coincides with the right circumstances: for example, when the competition is also great, the race strategy can be individually-focused, and the weather is favorable. The stars don't always align during the span of OHSAA season... as such, the OHSAA record holder may not also be the "GOAT".

Again, I look back to the 2012 season... a week before Brannon's 4:01.71c, his focus was on winning the 1600-800 double and helping his team make a run at the state title. The competition in the 1600 was strong but seemed to focus on their best strategies to ensure a runner-up finish... they allowed Brannon to go through 1200M in 3:17high. A 56.x close secured the 10points for the team but left enough in the tank to allow him to come back and win the 800M about an hour later. Brannon was clearly fit enough to run 4:05 on the day (in fact, he had run a converted 4:05 nearly a year earlier (at the Midwest Distance Gala), but that was not his goal at the state meet... the stars weren't aligned for a record run.

Moving to the national meets, the athletes are still generally under the care of their high school coaches... and have not started their college preparation. My experience suggests most athletes still feel like they are representing their communities and their schools... even their State, with great pride. Competition in the national meets is simply an extension of the high school season which provides elite competition, a motivating environment and the opportunity to "go for it". It's generally possible to hold the peak a little longer... and in good weather "records" fall.

Organizations set rules... and so be it. But people who know, know.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it... did it make a sound? Of course it did.
If a guy runs 1609 meters in 4:03... is that faster than 1600 meters in 4:05? Of course it is.


Of course I am a "homer", raising the example of a Lancaster guy.

I am also a "homer" when it comes to the heroics of John Zishka, another Lancaster guy, back in the late 70's and early 80's. How is that we expunged the records John (and others) set before the conversion to metric distances. In addition to John, I got to watch Pittman and Nicholas... I got smoked by Alan Sharsu. Are their performances less impressive, their effort less worthy, because of a what amounts to an after-the-fact "management decision". How hard would it have been to maintain official records for the Mile and the 1600, the 440 and the 400... To not recognize the efforts and achievements of guys who raced before the metric conversion is just downright disrespectful.

Am I a "homer"? Yup! Guilty as charged. But I'll bet there are folks in Cleveland and Dayton... at Austintown... other schools and cities who feel the same way about their GOATs. And they are right!

This brings me back to my appreciation for the work of Mr Whitman, continued by the "Javman"

Thank you.
 
The "Yards" Era will live again through Whitmore's data & my expounding upon it. They will not be forgotten.
 
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