Martin RPI

Termite2

Well-known member
If coaches can pick their slot in a bracket according to whatever seeding process you use, what does it matter?
If you want a system that evaluates the strength of a team based on the coaches opinions, letting the coaches slot is the best out there.
 

tcgobucks

Well-known member
If coaches can pick their slot in a bracket according to whatever seeding process you use, what does it matter?
If you want a system that evaluates the strength of a team based on the coaches opinions, letting the coaches slot is the best out there.
That's what I think people don't understand. The RPI is for seeding only. Coaches still get to put themselves on the bracket based on the seeding. It's not like this system is guaranteeing 1 v 14, 2 v 13, 3 v 12, 4 v 11 etc.
 

Termite2

Well-known member
That's what I think people don't understand. The RPI is for seeding only. Coaches still get to put themselves on the bracket based on the seeding. It's not like this system is guaranteeing 1 v 14, 2 v 13, 3 v 12, 4 v 11 etc.
Not all Districts let the coaches choose their slot.
 

SWOHHoops

Active member
If coaches can pick their slot in a bracket according to whatever seeding process you use, what does it matter?
If you want a system that evaluates the strength of a team based on the coaches opinions, letting the coaches slot is the best out there.
That is essentially what coaches voting is, high probability they put the team they think is best (and would avoid going in the bracket by them) #1 and so on.

Agree they still place themselves but seeding decides what order they do that. If PC is the best team and is the 10 seed, 1-9 have to go in the bracket not knowing where PC is going, thus possibly unable to avoid them.
 

tcgobucks

Well-known member
Not all Districts let the coaches choose their slot.
As of now only the NW District is using the RPI for seeding.....and they allow the coaches to pick their slot on the bracket. Why would any District not allow a coach to choose? What's the point of having a great regular season if you don't have the benefit of picking your time/location for the tourney?
 

D1nwobb

Active member
As of now only the NW District is using the RPI for seeding.....and they allow the coaches to pick their slot on the bracket. Why would any District not allow a coach to choose? What's the point of having a great regular season if you don't have the benefit of picking your time/location for the tourney?
Last season, the Southeast District was the only one using NCAA bracketing.
 

D4fan

Well-known member
That's what I think people don't understand. The RPI is for seeding only. Coaches still get to put themselves on the bracket based on the seeding. It's not like this system is guaranteeing 1 v 14, 2 v 13, 3 v 12, 4 v 11 etc.
That is where we are headed with this RPI rankings. It will look just like football eventually with highest vs lowest. No choice of where on bracket.
I prefer the way it has been in south west for many years, with possible exception of making D4 a super sectional.
 

SWOHHoops

Active member
That is where we are headed with this RPI rankings. It will look just like football eventually with highest vs lowest. No choice of where on bracket.
I prefer the way it has been in south west for many years, with possible exception of making D4 a super sectional.
10000% yes!
 

Philly_Cat

Well-known member
That is essentially what coaches voting is, high probability they put the team they think is best (and would avoid going in the bracket by them) #1 and so on.

Agree they still place themselves but seeding decides what order they do that. If PC is the best team and is the 10 seed, 1-9 have to go in the bracket not knowing where PC is going, thus possibly unable to avoid them.
I think you put waaaay too much faith in coaches being honest and forthright in their voting. I've seen multiple votes where more than one school has voted the exact opposite to what the majority of voters did. Meaning they voted the 20th team 1st, 19th team 2nd, etc. I've seen coaches say they voted a team lower because they honestly knew nothing about them and their season. There's also the issue of larger leagues sticking together and voting down teams from smaller leagues. We'll call that the "brotherhood" vote. And there's even the personal grudges one coaches may have against another. Regardless, to say that coaches are always honest with their voting, and do their homework on all the teams in their field, is very naive.
 
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SWOHHoops

Active member
I think you put waaaay too much faith in coaches being honest and forthright in their voting. I've seen multiple votes where more than one school has voted the exact opposite to what the majority of voters did. Meaning they voted the 20th team 1st, 19th team 2nd, etc. I've seen coaches say they voted a team lower because they honestly knew nothing about them and their season. There's also the issue of larger leagues sticking together and voting down teams from smaller leagues. We'll call that the "brotherhood" vote. And there's even the personal grudges one coaches may have against another. Regardless, to say that coaches are always honest with their voting, and do their homework on all the teams in their field, is very naive.
Completely agree, which is why I consistently say neither is perfect. I have seen the same but what I have never seen is the best team seeded 10th because all the coaches do that. When you have a group of 15-40 coaches whose vote counts equally, that won't happen. I agree that "we should be 6th and they voted us 10th" exists and that some coaches do no homework.

Forget we are having this conversation and I just put up a post that said I think Taft last year was around the 30th best team in Ohio and this year I think Pick Central is around 30 this year. You would think I didn't know HS basketball and discount my opinion going forward. Those results from the RPI cause me to not trust it, thus I prefer coaches seeding.

This morning Carlisle remains two spots ahead of Preble in Region 12 even though Preble has a better record and dominated Carlisle head-to-head. Who that follows sports would say that is accurate?
 

Philly_Cat

Well-known member
Completely agree, which is why I consistently say neither is perfect. I have seen the same but what I have never seen is the best team seeded 10th because all the coaches do that. When you have a group of 15-40 coaches whose vote counts equally, that won't happen. I agree that "we should be 6th and they voted us 10th" exists and that some coaches do no homework.

Forget we are having this conversation and I just put up a post that said I think Taft last year was around the 30th best team in Ohio and this year I think Pick Central is around 30 this year. You would think I didn't know HS basketball and discount my opinion going forward. Those results from the RPI cause me to not trust it, thus I prefer coaches seeding.

This morning Carlisle remains two spots ahead of Preble in Region 12 even though Preble has a better record and dominated Carlisle head-to-head. Who that follows sports would say that is accurate?
Guess we are just different, because it doesn't bother me in the least. Especially because it can be explained away with the formula and each team's schedule results up to each point. At the end of the day, the formula is the formula. It doesn't change, at least not in the middle of a season. So every coach knows what they are working with (or against depending on your perspective). There aren't any hidden secrets. Whereas in coaches voting, the results vary depending upon each coach's opinions and feelings. You can't plan around that. My guess is even under a computer ranking a great team will still play a tough schedule because at the end of the day they know they are great, and having to place themselves in a bracket behind a handful, or even more, other teams doesn't matter to them.
 

tcgobucks

Well-known member
This morning Carlisle remains two spots ahead of Preble in Region 12 even though Preble has a better record and dominated Carlisle head-to-head. Who that follows sports would say that is accurate?
Gonna assume that's because Preble's strength of schedule is #165 in D3 while Carlisle is #60
 

SWOHHoops

Active member
Gonna assume that's because Preble's strength of schedule is #165 in D3 while Carlisle is #60
Completely agree on the why from the formula, does your basketball knowledge tell you that Team A has dominated their bad schedule and Team B......but Team B is seeded higher?

@Philly_Cat perfectly reasonable for us to prefer different flawed systems. The only disagreement on here is when people say the RPI is accurate. It is accurate according to its formula, but not accurate in ranking teams in order of best to worst which seeding is designed to be.
 

Philly_Cat

Well-known member
Completely agree on the why from the formula, does your basketball knowledge tell you that Team A has dominated their bad schedule and Team B......but Team B is seeded higher?

@Philly_Cat perfectly reasonable for us to prefer different flawed systems. The only disagreement on here is when people say the RPI is accurate. It is accurate according to its formula, but not accurate in ranking teams in order of best to worst which seeding is designed to be.
It's also a formula that can be adjusted year to year, moving it closer to what the majority see as accurate. One of those ways is taking a look at how games against out of state teams, particularly prep teams, are handled. However, it is predictable.

On the other hand, a human poll can never be completely predictable due to the constant changing nature of people's feelings and opinions. Either way, I'll take predictable with the ability to adjust accuracy over unpredictable and perceived accuracy.
 

spirit454

Well-known member
Completely agree on the why from the formula, does your basketball knowledge tell you that Team A has dominated their bad schedule and Team B......but Team B is seeded higher?
Curious, If Team B beats Team A does that mean the Team B is deserving of a higher seed at seasons end? I cannot remember the seeds for Ohio State and Duke in last years tournament.
 

SWOHHoops

Active member
It's also a formula that can be adjusted year to year, moving it closer to what the majority see as accurate. One of those ways is taking a look at how games against out of state teams, particularly prep teams, are handled. However, it is predictable.

On the other hand, a human poll can never be completely predictable due to the constant changing nature of people's feelings and opinions. Either way, I'll take predictable with the ability to adjust accuracy over unpredictable and perceived accuracy.
Completely reasonable. In my experience in SWOH over 20+ years, the crazy one-off rankings have been about zero so i prefer human voting. No argument with you having a different preference.

@spirit454 your ability to change your opinion of how winning games impacts rankings within this thread has been impressive. I can barely keep up!
 

jj150

Member
Trying to fix a flawed system with a flawed system. Great thread. I am a stats person (manipulate numbers all day long for a Fortune 500 company). Don’t have a kid or relative who plays or ever played basketball. Got on this thread as it was about rankings./computer stats. Anyway, if I am following correctly you are trying to fix crooked coaches (those who abuse current way of voting) with a computer formula. You don’t think those same coaches will manipulate the computer formula? That (manipulating a formula) is easily done by the way. The tire is round for a reason…. I will now go back to the football and wrestling threads. Over and out.
 

D4fan

Well-known member
Trying to fix a flawed system with a flawed system. Great thread. I am a stats person (manipulate numbers all day long for a Fortune 500 company). Don’t have a kid or relative who plays or ever played basketball. Got on this thread as it was about rankings./computer stats. Anyway, if I am following correctly you are trying to fix crooked coaches (those who abuse current way of voting) with a computer formula. You don’t think those same coaches will manipulate the computer formula? That (manipulating a formula) is easily done by the way. The tire is round for a reason…. I will now go back to the football and wrestling threads. Over and out.
You said a lot in your brief visit, thanks for contributing.
 

winbypin

Well-known member
Trying to fix a flawed system with a flawed system. Great thread. I am a stats person (manipulate numbers all day long for a Fortune 500 company). Don’t have a kid or relative who plays or ever played basketball. Got on this thread as it was about rankings./computer stats. Anyway, if I am following correctly you are trying to fix crooked coaches (those who abuse current way of voting) with a computer formula. You don’t think those same coaches will manipulate the computer formula? That (manipulating a formula) is easily done by the way. The tire is round for a reason…. I will now go back to the football and wrestling threads. Over and out.
I don't know how the formula for this RPI rating works but how are the coaches going to manipulate the formula that they have no input to? Aside from throwing games? I guess trying to control the margin of victory at times?
 

spirit454

Well-known member
@spirit454 your ability to change your opinion of how winning games impacts rankings within this thread has been impressive. I can barely keep up!
Wins do matter but I believe in assessing from an entire body of work. Not a single game. The Buckeyes beat Duke last season but I cannot remember the seeding in the ncaa.
 
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SWOHHoops

Active member
For comparison/discussion purposes only here is the AP poll with RPI ranking next to it. For those that need it explained, posting the rankings for discussion purposes is not an endorsement of either ranking:

1. St Eds (1)
2. Centerville (8)
3. Broadview Heights (2)
4. SVSM (6)
5. Orange (4)
6. Elder (10)
7. Fairfield (11)
8. Liberty (9)
9. Pick Central (22)
10. Garfield Heights (26)

RPI rankings of PC/GH/Centerville are credibility killers
 

BBcourt32

New member
Interesting twist from our district yesterday- The seeds get locked in to the RPI in two weeks and now the number of teams that advance to the district games are now allowed to pass in the draw. So in D1 since its two District sites, the top 4 seeds can pass before placing themselves on a bracket. With the parity of teams in D1 this will make for an interesting draw.
 

spirit454

Well-known member
Interesting twist from our district yesterday- The seeds get locked in to the RPI in two weeks and now the number of teams that advance to the district games are now allowed to pass in the draw. So in D1 since its two District sites, the top 4 seeds can pass before placing themselves on a bracket. With the parity of teams in D1 this will make for an interesting draw.
Have not teams always been allowed to pass when it was their turn?
 

Hback

Active member
Have not teams always been allowed to pass when it was their turn?

Yes and no. Has always been a district by district thing…which again - makes no sense to me.

NWDAB is going back to it this year.

Also, some districts used to make the 1 and 2 seeds go opposite of each other too. Some didn’t care and the 2 seed could go right at the 1 seed if they wanted.
 

spirit454

Well-known member
Also, some districts used to make the 1 and 2 seeds go opposite of each other too. Some didn’t care and the 2 seed could go right at the 1 seed if they wanted.
This year in the NW using the RPI do they have to go opposite sides?
 

tcgobucks

Well-known member
For comparison/discussion purposes only here is the AP poll with RPI ranking next to it. For those that need it explained, posting the rankings for discussion purposes is not an endorsement of either ranking:

1. St Eds (1)
2. Centerville (8)
3. Broadview Heights (2)
4. SVSM (6)
5. Orange (4)
6. Elder (10)
7. Fairfield (11)
8. Liberty (9)
9. Pick Central (22)
10. Garfield Heights (26)

RPI rankings of PC/GH/Centerville are credibility killers
You have to remember that this is the AP poll, not coaches. The AP voters have proven multiple times in the past that they don't know a lot of anything about teams outside of their area. The Plain Dealer guy usually puts how he voted in the same article as the announcement for the weekly poll. His knowledge of teams in his area is spot on, but some of the teams he votes for (especially in NW Ohio) is beyond comical. At least with the coaches they are voting on teams they know from their area.
 

BBcourt32

New member
This year in the NW using the RPI do they have to go opposite sides?
We have not been allowed to pass for a number of years. Yes, 1 and 2 go opposite but with this passing ability back in place not sure if that will be the case. Generally the seeds will still go opposite but in a year with great parity like this its more about getting the right matchups.
 

SWOHHoops

Active member
You have to remember that this is the AP poll, not coaches. The AP voters have proven multiple times in the past that they don't know a lot of anything about teams outside of their area. The Plain Dealer guy usually puts how he voted in the same article as the announcement for the weekly poll. His knowledge of teams in his area is spot on, but some of the teams he votes for (especially in NW Ohio) is beyond comical. At least with the coaches they are voting on teams they know from their area.
1000% agree, that is why I said it is not an endorsement of either. The comment about RPI ranking causing credibility loss is separate from the AP poll discussion. I have never trusted the AP poll, but in the comparison I personally think it is closer to reality.
 
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