Is this a Slam

OCEagle

Well-known member
Have been following Alex Facundo a little this year since Davison HS is only about 15 miles from me. Didn't hear about this match at the Michigan state duals last year that was won by Detroit Catholic Central. What do you think, is this a slam that cost Facundo the match and possibly the team title. He was wrestling up from 170 at 189 in this match. Also of note is that his opponent here, Manuel Rojas won the 170 pound weight at Super 32 this past fall. Will be interesting to see a rematch - if it were possible to see any wrestling this year in Michigan. So far, Davison has had to cancel all their matches.

 
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miketyson

Active member
I remember seeing this last year by rule of the law it is a slam. I don't think he showed reasonable control. It's bad technique, as he over powered him clearly. Do i think the kid should have taken a dive?......no.
 

MitSulHer

Well-known member
Wow. I've seen way way way harder takedowns not called. Especially in youth wrestling. My son got slammed multiple times at national youth stuff and nothing ever called. Idk, my initial reaction is it looks pretty lame.
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
When a wrestler lifts an opponent off his feet, it is his responsibility to return him under control and without excessive force. Things officials tend to look for is amount of force, what lands when, it’s usually best if the offensive wrestler has a body part land first.

here he lifts him straight up and to the matstraight down with defensive landing first on his back.

while it is highly unlikely the opponent was actually injured, and I would never coach a kid to say he couldn’t continue when he could, I don’t think the ref got anything wrong.

now the fact that he didn’t really know what to signal for the illegal slam doesn’t inspire confidence in the call
 

rr23724

Active member
Absolutely not a slam and even worse...why didn’t the kid continue? He immediately sat up, stood up, and walked to the middle of the mat. He did not hit his head, his legs worked fine. It’s more BS that his coach had him take a dive to win.
 

Jim Behrens

Active member
Absolutely not a slam and even worse...why didn’t the kid continue? He immediately sat up, stood up, and walked to the middle of the mat. He did not hit his head, his legs worked fine. It’s more BS that his coach had him take a dive to win.
Okay, just wondering, what would constitute a slam in your mind? Read the Rule Book definition of a slam before answering.
Does the wrestler have to be hurt?
Unable to walk?
Hit his/her head?
Break a limb?
Sometimes mat returns sound bad and yet nothing seems to have happened. Other times there is very little to indicate a problem (noise, action, whatever) and yet a kid is hurt. Easy to say when watching a video. Not so easy in real time.
I feel fairly certain that if it was YOUR wrestler (or son), you would feel very differently. It is the official's responsibility to keep the wrestlers safe to the best of his ability, realizing that at times like this the damage can be done before the action can be stopped.

Now the question of whether of not the wrestler could/should have continued the match is a completely separate issue. That is not the responsibility of the mat official. The wrestler, his coach, and any medical people in attendance make that decision. Neither you nor I have any inside knowledge as to why they did what they did.

Argue all you want but safety is the primary concern.
 

miketyson

Active member
When you pick someone up you are responsible for returning him safely. Also that technique is terrible and is just over powering the kid.
 

rr23724

Active member
Okay, just wondering, what would constitute a slam in your mind? Read the Rule Book definition of a slam before answering.
Does the wrestler have to be hurt?
Unable to walk?
Hit his/her head?
Break a limb?
Sometimes mat returns sound bad and yet nothing seems to have happened. Other times there is very little to indicate a problem (noise, action, whatever) and yet a kid is hurt. Easy to say when watching a video. Not so easy in real time.
I feel fairly certain that if it was YOUR wrestler (or son), you would feel very differently. It is the official's responsibility to keep the wrestlers safe to the best of his ability, realizing that at times like this the damage can be done before the action can be stopped.

Now the question of whether of not the wrestler could/should have continued the match is a completely separate issue. That is not the responsibility of the mat official. The wrestler, his coach, and any medical people in attendance make that decision. Neither you nor I have any inside knowledge as to why they did what they did.

Argue all you want but safety is the primary concern.
Does not come down out of control. Did not come down with excessive force. The “slammers” left knee came down at the same time as the other kid. I’ve read the rule book. I coached for 21 years and wrestled for 15 before that. Unless the definition has changed since I retired a couple years ago it only mentions unnecessary force. That was not there in this takedown. It was actually quite mild. I understand safety is the primary concern but there was nothing unsafe here. If this were my son or one of my wrestlers I would still disagree with the call but I would also not tell the ref to take the point off the board... I’m not stupid. My wrestler would be back in the circle ready to wrestle. We actually had this happen in the match to place at State one year. My kid was legitimately hurt and then got slammed extremely hard on his hurt shoulder down 2 with 22 seconds left in the match. He wrestled the last 22 seconds. He didn’t want to take the easy way out and I let him have his wish. Last match of his career.
 

Suplexer130

Active member
I think the issue here is the extra elevation in my mind when he goes up to one foot to create the swinging motion into a driving downward force. Had he completed the move from two feet simply sweeping the legs out he probably is fine, but that little extra elevation up to one foot changed the positioning getting him more over top in a downward driving motion.
 

rr23724

Active member
You were a terrible coach that day.
No...I was a coach that gave a kid the chance to determine how he would see himself in the mirror for the rest of his life. He chose correct. And then married my niece and is an amazing husband and father because he has more character than anyone who thinks taking the easy way out is the right decision.
 

queencitybuckeye

Well-known member
No...I was a coach that gave a kid the chance to determine how he would see himself in the mirror for the rest of his life. He chose correct. And then married my niece and is an amazing husband and father because he has more character than anyone who thinks taking the easy way out is the right decision.
It's not the easy way out, it's following the rules. You disrespected the sport.
 

rr23724

Active member
It's not the easy way out, it's following the rules. You disrespected the sport.
There is absolutely nothing in the rules that says a kid has to take the forfeit if he gets slammed. I think it is more disrespectful to not even have a basic understanding of the sport to know that.

I gave a kid a choice and honored it. I asked the athletic trainer who was there if they thought he was fit enough to continue and she said "Yes, it will likely hurt but he can continue." Then I gave my wrestler the choice. The kid was a senior. He got the chance to go out the way he felt was best for him. If you think that is disrespecting the sport, you are clueless.
 

miketyson

Active member
If you don't want to lose like that kid did. Don't slam people, don't even allow it to be considered. It looked like the Facundo let his emotions get the best of him.
 

OCEagle

Well-known member
There is absolutely nothing in the rules that says a kid has to take the forfeit if he gets slammed. I think it is more disrespectful to not even have a basic understanding of the sport to know that.

I gave a kid a choice and honored it. I asked the athletic trainer who was there if they thought he was fit enough to continue and she said "Yes, it will likely hurt but he can continue." Then I gave my wrestler the choice. The kid was a senior. He got the chance to go out the way he felt was best for him. If you think that is disrespecting the sport, you are clueless.

It is not as much that I respect you for your decision, but the kid making that decision himself is remarkable. Trying to think what I would have done in that situation. If my original injury were not made worse to the point where I could not continue with the existing injury at nearly the same level I was at before the slam, I think I may have taken the forfeit - because it robbed me of the chance to get back in the match with only a couple dozen seconds left. If it did not affect me in any way, I'd like to think I would have continued wrestling "as is" and tried to win that way. I have no idea, but likely having a coach that did not want me to take the easy way out would have convinced me to continue on rather than disappoint him - and when I realized it later in life - disappointed myself as well.
 

Styxbb

Member
Division 2 district last year, kid got slammed(pretty much the same as this video, but landed on his head) and concussed. Knowing he was done, he did not take the victory so the other kid could try to get to state. In my opinion, that was one of the classiest moves I have seen.
 

OCEagle

Well-known member
Division 2 district last year, kid got slammed(pretty much the same as this video, but landed on his head) and concussed. Knowing he was done, he did not take the victory so the other kid could try to get to state. In my opinion, that was one of the classiest moves I have seen.
Agree, but only if the kid that did the slam had been wrestling hard but clean the entire match to that point. If he was wrestling to hurt or injure his opponent and the slam was just the final act of an overly aggressive/dirty match, I could see why the concussed kid would just take the victory, then Medical forfeit out of the next match. Sounds like that would be chickens$h&t to do, but if you are acting like it is an MMA contest instead of a wrestling match, the loss via forfeit is the reward for bad behavior. I hope the kid that concussed his opponent with the slam got over to him and apologized immediately after the match was called. Pretty hard to fake a concussion with the testing that is performed. That would also have been a good time for his coach to get involved and ensure he did the right thing and sincerely apologized, even if the slam was totally unintentional and he faced elimination. That can go a long way to earn forgiveness and in this case, some unexpected immediate redemption.
 

rr23724

Active member
It is not as much that I respect you for your decision, but the kid making that decision himself is remarkable. Trying to think what I would have done in that situation. If my original injury were not made worse to the point where I could not continue with the existing injury at nearly the same level I was at before the slam, I think I may have taken the forfeit - because it robbed me of the chance to get back in the match with only a couple dozen seconds left. If it did not affect me in any way, I'd like to think I would have continued wrestling "as is" and tried to win that way. I have no idea, but likely having a coach that did not want me to take the easy way out would have convinced me to continue on rather than disappoint him - and when I realized it later in life - disappointed myself as well.
I did not indicate to him in any way what I thought. I also made sure to ask the trainer if he was good enough to continue away from the wrestler.. It was 100% the kids choice.
 

rr23724

Active member
Agree, but only if the kid that did the slam had been wrestling hard but clean the entire match to that point. If he was wrestling to hurt or injure his opponent and the slam was just the final act of an overly aggressive/dirty match, I could see why the concussed kid would just take the victory, then Medical forfeit out of the next match. Sounds like that would be chickens$h&t to do, but if you are acting like it is an MMA contest instead of a wrestling match, the loss via forfeit is the reward for bad behavior. I hope the kid that concussed his opponent with the slam got over to him and apologized immediately after the match was called. Pretty hard to fake a concussion with the testing that is performed. That would also have been a good time for his coach to get involved and ensure he did the right thing and sincerely apologized, even if the slam was totally unintentional and he faced elimination. That can go a long way to earn forgiveness and in this case, some unexpected immediate redemption.
It's actually easier to fake a concussion now that it ever has been. If the kid says he has a headache that is enough.
 

MitSulHer

Well-known member
After watching the video about 10 more times i can't believe it was called an illegal slam. I can tell you, in MIRON's room (and many many other rooms), you were taught to finish a double leg 8-10 feet from where it started. I would say each double leg drilled in the room was a slam by the rule above.

The kids right foot barely comes up from the mat. smh. I guess its like getting turned with a power half and crying out, stop the match, couple shoulder rolls, and back at it. I don't mean to sound too callous, both situations would be hard to call, and you must error on the side of the wrestler. But i don't think that was a slam.
 
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If you don't want to lose like that kid did. Don't slam people, don't even allow it to be considered. It looked like the Facundo let his emotions get the best of him.
I didnt think he slammed him that hard. I think Fucundo just wrestles hard like a college wrestler and made it look worse than it was. With that said I’m not saying the other kid is faking, he very well could have been hurt. Seen wrestlers get hurt on a lot less. From watching more college than high school wrestling just feel it shouldn’t of been called a slam.
 

miketyson

Active member
Thats the issue this is not college wrestling. High school wrestling is more about respecting the kids safety. In college the majority of that is thrown out the window with the exception of severe brutality. The thinking is in college everyone is a man. In high school that is not the case. I do not think that is unreasonable
 

Styxbb

Member
Agree, but only if the kid that did the slam had been wrestling hard but clean the entire match to that point. If he was wrestling to hurt or injure his opponent and the slam was just the final act of an overly aggressive/dirty match, I could see why the concussed kid would just take the victory, then Medical forfeit out of the next match. Sounds like that would be chickens$h&t to do, but if you are acting like it is an MMA contest instead of a wrestling match, the loss via forfeit is the reward for bad behavior. I hope the kid that concussed his opponent with the slam got over to him and apologized immediately after the match was called. Pretty hard to fake a concussion with the testing that is performed. That would also have been a good time for his coach to get involved and ensure he did the right thing and sincerely apologized, even if the slam was totally unintentional and he faced elimination. That can go a long way to earn forgiveness and in this case, some unexpected immediate redemption.
The kid that did the slam wrestled like a bull. Mostly from lack of experience, not from anger. No one is stronger than him. Playing D1 football now.
 

MitSulHer

Well-known member

126 lbs Final OH 2017 Jordan Decatur, CVCA vs Hunter Kosco, Canal Fulton Northwest

Start at the 4:50 mark and check out the takedown by Decatur. Way harder takedown then the one discussed here. No call. And this was state championship.

Great match btw. Worth watching from start to finish.
 
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CoachHoversten

Active member
S

126 lbs Final OH 2017 Jordan Decatur, CVCA vs Hunter Kosco, Canal Fulton Northwest

Start at the 4:50 mark and check out the takedown by Decatur. Way harder takedown then the one discussed here. No call. And this was state championship.

Great match btw. Worth watching from start to finish.
so bc one ref didn’t call this, all slams equal or less than this should not be called too?
 
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