Is the USA going to Break Apart?

[winbypin]

I agree that he isn't stopping free speech. What I wrote was "if any message contradicts the message that they want, it is discounted and attempts at suppression are made." There is a difference.

He doesn't call out false stories. He calls out stories that he thinks are false and that he doesn't like. There is a difference.

The rest of your post certainly suggests it including your reference to dictatorships. Just because he is president he gave up his right to have his opinion on the news? Quite a few of these stories have indeed turned out to be false, fabricated, and exaggerated.

 

[Crusaders]

I know. Hardly anyone can cross Interstates 8, 10, 15, 40, & 80.

Major roadways are easy to keep track of.

 

[domi]

It's my belief that social media plays a huge role in opinions about the country being divided today versus 10 or 25 or 100 years ago. Anybody with internet access today can voice their feelings on a multitude of platforms and there's no shortage of far left and right wing people doing it. Those people have always been around but in the past didn't have many ways to express themselves, for better or worse.

 

[lotr10]

I often don't agree with your viewpoints but your arguments are generally cogent and expressed respectably. However, what you've written here is expressed as if racial, ethnic and religious diversity is a bad thing. I believe that our country is stronger today due diversity not in spite of it. I would also like to read some of the studies that you're alluding to.

I won't argue that the lack of assimilation is making matters worse. I believe, though, that the lack of assimilation is the result of others not willing to accept diversity.

My point was to note that the automatic assumption that racial, ethnic & religious diversity within a community is a net positive is not supported by the evidence. There are good aspects of such diversity and there are bad aspects. The subsequent impact on a society may be positive or negative based on unique aspects of that society.

Now if you Google it you get a whole lot of articles touting the good aspects as that is the direction society wants us to go. In fact I would go so far as to say that Google steers the search to certain endpoints. However, if you vary the search query on Google it does lead to those studies arguing against a simple minded "diversity is good" position.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...chase_site_license=LICENSE_DENIED_NO_CUSTOMER

Now this is the guy that kicked off the argument and as expected he's caught a lot of heat for his study. This is his abstract:

Ethnic diversity is increasing in most advanced countries, driven mostly by sharp increases in immigration. In the long run immigration and diversity are likely to have important cultural, economic, fiscal, and developmental benefits. In the short run, however, immigration and ethnic diversity tend to reduce social solidarity and social capital. New evidence from the US suggests that in ethnically diverse neighbourhoods residents of all races tend to hunker down’. Trust (even of one’s own race) is lower, altruism and community cooperation rarer, friends fewer. In the long run, however, successful immigrant societies have overcome such fragmentation by creating new, cross-cutting forms of social solidarity and more encompassing identities. Illustrations of becoming comfortable with diversity are drawn from the US military, religious institutions, and earlier waves of American immigration.

The key here is that this phenomena varies across different cultures & socioeconomic groups and may be enhanced in the USA.

Here's a general review:

http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/

Here's a more scientific one:

http://digitalrepository.trincoll.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1157&context=facpub

Here's a review of a study:

https://www.technology.org/2014/09/01/question-controversy-ethnic-diversity-harmful-social-cohesion/

I know you can find studies that claim this work is wrong but I would caution you that these studies are either apples to oranges (comparing effects of American diversity to diversity in London) or clearly have an ideological goal of disproving the notion that Diversity isn't exclusively beneficial.

 

[lotr10]

It's my belief that social media plays a huge role in opinions about the country being divided today versus 10 or 25 or 100 years ago. Anybody with internet access today can voice their feelings on a multitude of platforms and there's no shortage of far left and right wing people doing it. Those people have always been around but in the past didn't have many ways to express themselves, for better or worse.

I agree and it stems from all of us getting our information from radically different sources.

 

[lotr10]

During the war years we were united; the intervening years, not so much. There were incidents like when the bonus marchers that were suppressed by Gen McArthur who used the 12th US Inf and the US 3rd Cav, supported by tanks under George Patton to crush them, they normally would have used the Marines in the Washington garrison, but they were sympathetic to the protesters and couldn't be trusted to to not join them. There were also the Farm protests where farmers blocked roads going into cities in an effort to raise prices. You also had rival farm groups, communists vs anti-commies fighting in Nebraska and other states.
FDR only introduced SS after massive protests[most were violent] by Socialists and Communists and the introduction of the Lundeen Bill* in congress which was a bigger social program. When the economy crashed again when it hit a new low in 1938 there was not the protests that happened before because the the Communists[who were the driving force behind the protests] were ordered by Moscow to refrain because Moscow wanted help from the Western democracies against the Nazis.

All fair points but IMO they represent a fraying at the edges of society by the more extreme or selective groups. What we have today is a fraying right down the middle involving the majority of Americans existing in two very different and increasingly hostile ideological groups.

 

[lotr10]

I won't argue that the lack of assimilation is making matters worse. I believe, though, that the lack of assimilation is the result of others not willing to accept diversity.

IMO assimilation is NOT a two way street. Those that come to America are obligated to assimilate to the greater American culture. Over time our culture will change to reflect the influx of newcomers but WE WILL DETERMINE what changes by only embracing those aspects of the immigrant culture that we deem beneficial or fun.

I know this sounds harsh but if I emigrated to Mexico I would have NO right to demand changes in the Mexican culture. It would be my obligation to assimilate. Now if a certain aspect of my culture was appealing to native Mexicans and they adopted it into their own culture; great. But they are under no obligation to do so.

It's the DEMAND by immigrants and their progressive allies in America that we UNCRITICALLY accept diversity that in fact is driving us further apart. There are some examples of cultural diversity brought in by immigrants that I WILL NOT accept including the use of any language BUT ENGLISH (multiple languages are a sure sign of cultural disunity) nor will I accept many of the religious & cultural attitudes that some of the new immigrants are bringing in that are in direct opposition to what I believe are the current American cultural beliefs involving women & gay rights and tolerance of non-religious people.

 

[lotr10]

You are right. I don't think the Left cares if the US remains the US. They want the US to be more like Europe with a little bit more Socialism. For some reason they truly believe that government control of everything is the answer. Heck the US has already moved toward a more Socialistic state than our forefathers wanted. Individual freedoms are being challenged and taken away with each passing year.

The Left ignores what Obama did because he's a smooth talker and he made it look like he was doing their bidding. In reality Obama had his own agenda and making America stronger was definitely not on his list.

lotr your scenario is not all that far fetched I just don't think it will happen in 25 years unless we get another Obama type President. If we get someone like that in as POTUS then your timeline may become the reality.

MoeDude I agree here and I'm still optimistic that we can keep things together. While Trumps election seems to be creating division, in the long run it may have preserved the Union by the simple fact that a Hillery election would have plunged half the country into despair and for them separation would have seemed like the only answer. As long as we keep bouncing back & forth between the competing ideological divides we might stay together for the bumpy ride.

 

[chs1971]

While Trumps election seems to be creating division ...

The Leftist nut cases that hate Trump all supported W? Not at all. There's nothing new going on here. The same people all decried the legitimacy of W's election.

 

[MoeDude]

The Leftist nut cases that hate Trump all supported W? Not at all. There's nothing new going on here. The same people all decried the legitimacy of W's election.

Good point. The Far Left will never cooperate with the right and they know how to play the heart strings of morons who are so attached to a cause.

The Far Right can be crazy too, but except for a few psychos I've never seen them pull some of the crap the Far Left have been doing the past year.

People also need to wake up and realize what a threat George Soros is to the US. This guy hates the US and is doing all he can to bring it down.

 

[lotr10]

Good point. The Far Left will never cooperate with the right and they know how to play the heart strings of morons who are so attached to a cause.

The Far Right can be crazy too, but except for a few psychos I've never seen them pull some of the crap the Far Left have been doing the past year.

People also need to wake up and realize what a threat George Soros is to the US. This guy hates the US and is doing all he can to bring it down.

You're right MoeDude but the problem is again the biased media. While the right wing wack jobs are largely mocked and marginalized the media gives a free pass to the more odious and dumb left wing wack-a-doodles. They go after the Koch brothers but ignore the much more dangerous and foul George Soros. If a republican politician says something stupid it's front page news while Sheila Jackson Lee and Maxine Waters stumble through government as two of the dumbest congress critters ever elected.

Why didn't this guy become a house hold name for asking one of the most ignorant questions, during an official Congressional hearing, ever asked. We all heard the name of Roy Moore.




Good news Hank, as of today Guam has not tipped over yet!

 

[lotr10]

Well look at this:

https://ntknetwork.com/california-a...federal-immigration-raids-will-be-prosecuted/

California Attorney General Xavier Becerra (D-CA) said during a press conference Thursday that employers in California who cooperate with Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) in their rumored upcoming immigration raids would be prosecuted if they cooperate in a manner that violates California law.

Wow, so if the feds come into California to enforce federal law and an employer helps them the State will arrests the employer? Seriously? Getting pretty close to Fort Sumter territory here. Maybe Attorney general Sessions should issue a federal warrant for Xavier Becerra's arrest for obstruction of justice. That should calm them down (or not).

 

[SWMCinci]

Well look at this:

https://ntknetwork.com/california-a...federal-immigration-raids-will-be-prosecuted/

California Attorney General Xavier Becerra (D-CA) said during a press conference Thursday that employers in California who cooperate with Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) in their rumored upcoming immigration raids would be prosecuted if they cooperate in a manner that violates California law.

Wow, so if the feds come into California to enforce federal law and an employer helps them the State will arrests the employer? Seriously? Getting pretty close to Fort Sumter territory here. Maybe Attorney general Sessions should issue a federal warrant for Xavier Becerra's arrest for obstruction of justice. That should calm them down (or not).

If they are allowed to get away with this (no penalty) then why would anyone follow federal laws? If states, elected officials, and illegal aliens can choose which federal laws they follow because they are inconvenient, why couldn't ANY American make those same decisions?

 

[lotr10]

If they are allowed to get away with this (no penalty) then why would anyone follow federal laws? If states, elected officials, and illegal aliens can choose which federal laws they follow because they are inconvenient, why couldn't ANY American make those same decisions?

Correct. I think Xavier needs to rethink this as Jeff Sessions probably dislikes these types of antics more then he dislikes legal weed. If the Californians do this I suspect the Trump administration will bring the hammer down hard.

 

[cabezadecaballo]

I don't see it happening.

 

[lotr10]

I don't see it happening.

So said the Roman matron a few days before the barbarians trampled her garden as they stole her silverware.

So said a prim & proper English lady sipping her East India tea before President Eisenhower told Prime Minister Anthony Eden to give back the Suez canal OR ELSE

So said the Russian babushka with pictures of a smiling Vladimir Lenin & Joseph Stalin hanging on her living room wall, before a drunk Boris Yeltsin stumbled in and puked on her carpet!

History moves fast my friend, very fast.

 

[y2h]

I agree that he isn't stopping free speech. What I wrote was "if any message contradicts the message that they want, it is discounted and attempts at suppression are made." There is a difference.

He doesn't call out false stories. He calls out stories that he thinks are false and that he doesn't like. There is a difference.



I often don't agree with your viewpoints but your arguments are generally cogent and expressed respectably. However, what you've written here is expressed as if racial, ethnic and religious diversity is a bad thing. I believe that our country is stronger today due diversity not in spite of it. I would also like to read some of the studies that you're alluding to.

I won't argue that the lack of assimilation is making matters worse. I believe, though, that the lack of assimilation is the result of others not willing to accept diversity.

Diversity can be a strength. It is also not a virtue unto itself. We don't need thousands of uneducated unskilled immigrants from certain impoverished nations to virtue signal our diversity.

 

[y2h]

When you're not united against a common enemy I don't think it's rare for the internal differences to magnify. Big diff between the 50s and now in that regard.

I don't think we're headed for a "separation " of any sort. Can you imagine California trying to defend their border from anyone that just wished to cross it? Any of the Western states?

If selling to a different country, one with few options such as California, Colorado would be jacking up the cost of their water enough to become a top ten economy, or cripple Californias.
Texas would spend more of their money building that wall around their border than even their economy could keep up with. All depends upon how vindictive the neighboring states, wished to be.


Other than Hawaii, who wouldn't care if they're poor and isn't really at risk of invasion in this day and age or Alaska who doesn't really need us, I don't see enough positives for even the politically extreme state to benefit from a separation.

Did you miss that California is a sanctuary state. Their idea of border security is arms wide open.

 

[eastisbest]

Did you miss that California is a sanctuary state. Their idea of border security is arms wide open.

Which would be really cool since well, we'd all be foreigners. Free vacation.

 

[Crusaders]

It'd be cool if we were bordered to the south by Italy or Australia. Unfortunately, Mexico presents a much higher risk.

 

[Happygoluckky]

Lawyers Guns and Money Blog..

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2018/01/one-year-three-oh-dear-god-please-three-years-go

 

[eastisbest]

It'd be cool if we were bordered to the south by Italy or Australia. Unfortunately, Mexico presents a much higher risk.

Yeah but their new borders would include Utah and Oregon. We could all go there and be sanctified....sancaed....sanctuaried. I'd be maxing the credit cards, making sure I purchased some good camping equipment, then heading west.