Girls Basketball Refs in NW OH

[BBcourt32]

First, a policy setting the standards would have to be put into place. That's on the schools..... and that's not going to happen.

So, if two schools (or a conference for that matter) agree to violate the law, that somehow makes it acceptable?

Unexpected situations arise and you make do with what's available. However you are advocating for setting policy that discriminates against girls and/or teams that are somehow deemed "bad".

Yeah, that will be a big hit.

True getting school districts together to agree on anything is difficult. The schools and AD's at several of the stops I've been too have been in favor of this but not every district would.

So you are telling me every game that doesn't have 3 officials is breaking the law? C'mon on man I can't tell you how many times over the years this happens. Sometimes officials don't show, some conferences, tournaments, out of state games etc don't have a full crew. Sometimes officials get hurt etc, games are not stopped and not played because of this. Please name the specific law that states all school competitions must have 3 licensed officials at every contest and just citing "Title IX" doesn't cut it. If this was breaking the law then also please cite specific lawsuits that are against teams/conferences/assignors for not having 3 officials at every contest.

I'm not advocating to do this for just the girls side I think the boys side should do it too (I do realize there generally isn't the same discrepancy on boys games and is a less likely buy in) I'm looking for ways to increase the officials pool of number of officials, ways to increase the training and to not just throw more money at the problem as the easy answer. I wouldn't just force this on the "bad" teams as you referenced. Let's use the example of the Toledo City League this year, for both the boys and girls side. Each Coach and AD work with the assigners and look at the League schedules and offer if any of the games on their schedule they would be ok with 2 man crews. For example Start girls beat Waite 66-8 and Rogers beat Waite 63-7 this year, if both Start and Waite agree that only 2 officials are needed for the contest, great that saves one official. If Waite says no we need 3 then you keep the normal 3. Again, I would think on the girls side there are more contests like this where both sides would agree, this is something I would force on a school, the proposal would be to offer. On the boys side this year Lima beat Woodward 92-38, again if both teams think 2 would be sufficient great, if not then keep the 3 man crew. There might be games that might be more 50/50 games too and some like me would be completely fine with 2 officials (again 2 competent officials) vs 3 that don't even know simple rules like not letting an offense player sprint in from the 3 point line to rebound on a ft before the ball hits the rim or makes us play a 3 minute overtime (varsity contest) when we show them the rule book.

 

[BBcourt32]

First, a policy setting the standards would have to be put into place. That's on the schools..... and that's not going to happen.

So, if two schools (or a conference for that matter) agree to violate the law, that somehow makes it acceptable?

Unexpected situations arise and you make do with what's available. However you are advocating for setting policy that discriminates against girls and/or teams that are somehow deemed "bad".

Yeah, that will be a big hit.

Also going back to your point here, so we only have 2 man crews for Freshman and JV basketball (don't ever recall 3 man crews working those games) so I guess every school already is breaking the law.... Can you show me somewhere in the OHSAA guidelines that 3 official's are required for varsity contests? The only thing I see from the Basketball Regs is below "minimum of one official if both teams agree..."


8) Officials: 8.1) Varsity — Class 1 Basketball Only. In the event only one OHSAA registered basketball official arrives to officiate the game, the game may be played provided the participating coaches agree. 8.2) Reserve/Junior Varsity — Class 1 or Class 2 Basketball Only. In the event only one OHSAA registered basketball official arrives to officiate the game, the game may be played provided the participating coaches agree. 8.3) Freshman — Minimum of one OHSAA Class 1, Class 2 or Class 3 basketball official required. All other officials are required to be OHSAA Class 1, 2 or 3 or basketball official in training.

 

[AllSports12]

So you are telling me every game that doesn't have 3 officials is breaking the law? C'mon on man I can't tell you how many times over the years this happens. Sometimes officials don't show, some conferences, tournaments, out of state games etc don't have a full crew. Sometimes officials get hurt etc, games are not stopped and not played because of this. Please name the specific law that states all school competitions must have 3 licensed officials at every contest and just citing "Title IX" doesn't cut it. If this was breaking the law then also please cite specific lawsuits that are against teams/conferences/assignors for not having 3 officials at every contest.

Did you even bother to read what I posted?

I'm looking for ways to increase the officials pool of number of officials,

How does cutting from three to two increase the pool?

ways to increase the training and to not just throw more money at the problem as the easy answer. I wouldn't just force this on the "bad" teams as you referenced. Let's use the example of the Toledo City League this year, for both the boys and girls side. Each Coach and AD work with the assigners and look at the League schedules and offer if any of the games on their schedule they would be ok with 2 man crews. For example Start girls beat Waite 66-8 and Rogers beat Waite 63-7 this year, if both Start and Waite agree that only 2 officials are needed for the contest, great that saves one official. If Waite says no we need 3 then you keep the normal 3. Again, I would think on the girls side there are more contests like this where both sides would agree, this is something I would force on a school, the proposal would be to offer. On the boys side this year Lima beat Woodward 92-38, again if both teams think 2 would be sufficient great, if not then keep the 3 man crew.

What you describe is an assigning nightmare.

 

[AllSports12]

Also going back to your point here, so we only have 2 man crews for Freshman and JV basketball (don't ever recall 3 man crews working those games) so I guess every school already is breaking the law.... Can you show me somewhere in the OHSAA guidelines that 3 official's are required for varsity contests? The only thing I see from the Basketball Regs is below "minimum of one official if both teams agree..."

It's apparent that you have not read and/or understood a word I typed.

I'll try one last time..... To implement your idea of 2 officials on girls games and only 2 on the "bad" boys games you run into problems.

- Creating a policy that discriminates against the girls for an arbitrary reason will be (and should be) challenged.
- Creating a policy defining "bad" teams also is an arbitrary reason

Neither will pass muster. How about we focus on the problem and stop thinking like the loudmouths in the stands?

For me, if an assigner puts me on a two person game, they will need to find another person.

 

[BBcourt32]

Did you even bother to read what I posted?

How does cutting from three to two increase the pool?

What you describe is an assigning nightmare.

Yes, I have and clearly you aren't reading my posts either. You keep referencing "setting a policy." who are you referring to here? Obviously OHSAA rule is a minimum of 1 and both coaches have to agree after that 2 man crew is fair game and obviously 3 man is more of the standard. If you read my posts, I'm advocating that all schools and leagues (regardless of if they are "bad" or not have the option to select preferred 2 man or 3 man crews. My examples of the TCL I gave were clear examples of mismatch games that would be easy ones that both teams could agree too. But as an assigner if two middle pack teams agreed then that's fine too. I would make it completely optional for both boys and girls schools pending both schools agreed. Again speaking from experience and talking with many of fellow coaches there are many games I would do this for as three just aren't necessary.

So we are not adding to the pool but we are expanding the number of available officials. So for example on a given Friday night let's say there are 30 varsity contests, currently that would require 90 officials. If say 5 of those contests only needed 2 man crews then we have 5 "extra" officials that night. Again, I keep hearing and seeing the officials shortage etc and yes of course we need more in the pipeline coming up but in the meantime if Lake and Rossford girls only need 2 for their Friday night game then we can make sure all the other games requesting 3 are covered (especially in the even of last minute call of etc) This is not a long term solution but a way to help fill gaps in the current environment of shortage.

Not really, currently after the season the assigner sends out the list of officials and we can select several we want to see and several we don't and the league schedule is compiled around that time and we would indicate 2 man or 3 man on certain games and if the other team agreed then great, if not then great also and your schedule is set.

 

[BBcourt32]

It's apparent that you have not read and/or understood a word I typed.

I'll try one last time..... To implement your idea of 2 officials on girls games and only 2 on the "bad" boys games you run into problems.

- Creating a policy that discriminates against the girls for an arbitrary reason will be (and should be) challenged.
- Creating a policy defining "bad" teams also is an arbitrary reason

Neither will pass muster. How about we focus on the problem and stop thinking like the loudmouths in the stands?

For me, if an assigner puts me on a two person game, they will need to find another person.

Read my last post- looking to make it optional for both boys and girls all games all teams and if both agree great. Was just giving easy examples of games that both teams likely would agree to.

This wouldn't be creating a policy that discriminates we already have 2 man crews and games that happen at all three levels. OHSAA says games can be completed using one official minimum if both teams agree, so 2 or 3 is acceptable (except for tournament games)

See above- all teams have the option.

Great! let's talk about the problems (Shortages, lack of training etc) I'm offering ideas, you are providing negativity. What are some of your solutions to the issues? You talk about how bad the new online class is what are some of these "re-vamps" you reference? You also seemed to scoff at $60 for a 2 hour scrimmage, what is your going rate? $30 an hour cash to show up 5 minutes before the scrimmage in shorts and barely cross half court with 2 other guys and a running clock seems like a decent rate.

Ah the classic I'm to good for this attitude, which is also creating more of the shortage. Great we have 30 officials in the Toledo area that only do boys games in the NLL on Friday nights. If you sign up to be an official then take the games you are given, if its 2 man crew then I gotta be more focused and work the 2 man mechanics if its 3 then adjust to the 3 man mechanics.

Also since you didn't read my post earlier still waiting on any legal cases, examples of illegality etc you referenced in your previous post... See I did read it.

Also will leave this here as just light reading- its a dated article from 2011 in New York but talks about the expansion of 2 man to 3 man crews and why some coaches like it and don't and also the financial components involved. Again a dated article but I think the coaches opinions still hold true.

Which is better -- three basketball referees or two?

<p>In Central New York scholastic circles, it depends who you ask</p>

www.syracuse.com

 

[Hooper419]

Gosh... some of you need to move on over to the boys forum.. Obviously not supporters of the girls game. We are blessed to have some great talent around here and some good referees. There are some good teams and good basketball on the girls end. As for referees... Jeff Mielcarek, Mike Byrd, Chester, Ralph Green.. they are some of the best in the area and they do both girls and boys..

And what was the comment about doing the freshmen game and then leaving to another Varsity game? Almost every 2 man crew double dips the freshmen and JV game.. With 3 new coming in for the Varsity games..

 

[AllSports12]

And what was the comment about doing the freshmen game and then leaving to another Varsity game? Almost every 2 man crew double dips the freshmen and JV game.. With 3 new coming in for the Varsity games..

There are conferences throughout the state that use (and have used for a long time) three separate crews.

 

[CasualFan24]

Gosh... some of you need to move on over to the boys forum.. Obviously not supporters of the girls game. We are blessed to have some great talent around here and some good referees. There are some good teams and good basketball on the girls end. As for referees... Jeff Mielcarek, Mike Byrd, Chester, Ralph Green.. they are some of the best in the area and they do both girls and boys..

And what was the comment about doing the freshmen game and then leaving to another Varsity game? Almost every 2 man crew double dips the freshmen and JV game.. With 3 new coming in for the Varsity games..

There is only 1 conference in my area that does the triple header - Freshman, JV, Varsity games on the same night. I think it's mostly because freshman teams are fewer and farther between. Many schools only have a limited freshman schedule because most of those freshman are heavily relied on for the JV games.

As far as his comment about doing the Freshman game at one location and then moving to another location - most of the time it's a varsity official helping out an assigner by doing the freshman boys game on say a Wednesday, then going somewhere else for a varsity girls game the same night.

 

[CasualFan24]

Some teams in the past ten years that I've talked to that would be open in the past 5-10 years would be most of the TAAC (especially with TC being so dominant the last few, actually Rick seemed open to it to help with Ref shortage) Maumee, Clay, Rogers, Start (with Kynard not Dane) Southview, AW, Napoleon, Bellevue to name a few. Obviously coaches have changed and teams have better and worse years etc but some of these are obvious like Rogers vs Waite and those type of matchups that are 70-80 point games. Do we really need 3 varsity officials on those? Would rather have one good varsity official and take an up and comer and let them work that and let two more varsity officials work other contests or offer some sort of mentoring opportunity for a veteran official to still get paid but observe train the new guys in a game like this. I don't disagree the buy in will be hard but we have official shortage issues and experience issues and trying to find solutions like the above might be a way to narrow the gap.

You, being a former official, know that the biggest jump from JV to Varsity for officials is just learning 3 man. Sure the game might get a little faster, but overall I believe it is easier to officiate a varsity contest than a JV contest - mostly because (usually) the game is much more under control by the players. That up and comer you're talking about, is getting nothing out of working 2-man in a varsity game. Most assigners start guys coming up to varsity with girls games, usually non-competitive match-ups. They send at least 1 older, respected official to work that game to help teach the young guy. I think this is the best method. You have after all, said you don't want that older guy on good games anyways - so what would it matter if he was on a non-competitive game?

Overall - some of your frustrations are merited. Not knowing the rules, and basic information is bad, and inexcusable. But I also think as I've tried to say, you have to have perspective as well. The pool of officials is less for the girls game - the pool of GOOD/GREAT officials is even less.

 

[BBcourt32]

You, being a former official, know that the biggest jump from JV to Varsity for officials is just learning 3 man. Sure the game might get a little faster, but overall I believe it is easier to officiate a varsity contest than a JV contest - mostly because (usually) the game is much more under control by the players. That up and comer you're talking about, is getting nothing out of working 2-man in a varsity game. Most assigners start guys coming up to varsity with girls games, usually non-competitive match-ups. They send at least 1 older, respected official to work that game to help teach the young guy. I think this is the best method. You have after all, said you don't want that older guy on good games anyways - so what would it matter if he was on a non-competitive game?

Overall - some of your frustrations are merited. Not knowing the rules, and basic information is bad, and inexcusable. But I also think as I've tried to say, you have to have perspective as well. The pool of officials is less for the girls game - the pool of GOOD/GREAT officials is even less.

I agree with you on all points, that's the discussion points I'm trying to bring up of how do we increase the pools and how do we increase the quality. All ideas from everyone on here welcomed, not saying my views are right or wrong but as you mentioned my perspective from my specific experiences.

 

[BBcourt32]

Gosh... some of you need to move on over to the boys forum.. Obviously not supporters of the girls game. We are blessed to have some great talent around here and some good referees. There are some good teams and good basketball on the girls end. As for referees... Jeff Mielcarek, Mike Byrd, Chester, Ralph Green.. they are some of the best in the area and they do both girls and boys..

And what was the comment about doing the freshmen game and then leaving to another Varsity game? Almost every 2 man crew double dips the freshmen and JV game.. With 3 new coming in for the Varsity games..

@Hooper419 You are right and I think Jeff as president did a nice preseason officials and coaches meeting would like to see more of that and even make them a mandatory thing. Also, I did check the boys forum just now and the Northwood boys domination talk is too taxing on my brain lol.

 

[CasualFan24]

I agree with you on all points, that's the discussion points I'm trying to bring up of how do we increase the pools and how do we increase the quality. All ideas from everyone on here welcomed, not saying my views are right or wrong but as you mentioned my perspective from my specific experiences.

The last couple years, in my area, there have been increases to game fees, though it's not quite where I think it should be, I think we're getting close (some conferences more than others.) I think $100 game fee for Varsity contests, across the board/state would be a great way to start. $75 for JV. Even guys that don't care about the money (myself) - it would be hard to scoff at an extra $500/week in money for doing 5 games.

There are a couple high schools in my area that are offering an officiating class as a gym credit now - these high school kids often take the class, and work a lot of the youth games in our area. I think it's a GREAT thing.

I'd love to see our local associations be more active and involved with schools and doing some marketing. Offer and advertise Q&A sessions at different schools for parents and students. More exposure to the public about what officiating is all about, will only lead to an increase in numbers. Also - I think education is a wonderful thing, being able to educate fans on what we see, how we think, will go a long way for fan behavior at games.

And again - I'll say it once more, girls and boys varsity double headers twice a week. Tuesday boys play first, Friday Girls play first - you will need a lot less officials if you successfully convert to this model.

 

[14Red]

I've said for years, get rid of the 3rd official. When that originally came up, it was thought that 3 officials would "clean up" the game. It's as physical as ever. We live a time when the majority of people want the "kids" to determine the outcome and not officials. What these people don't ever see is that by NOT calling obvious fouls, you're impacting the game just the same.
My rule, call it tight, the kids will adjust. You just set that tone and STICK TO IT, games will be much better, much more flow. We now have high school games that are sloppy, regardless of the talent level because officials don't call enough fouls. College, NBA, sure have 3 officials, you have a much different pay scale and you can pay these folks. High school officials are practically volunteering themselves for the little they get paid, and they get treated like crap. It's been this way for 50 years.

 

[AllSports12]

Yes, I have and clearly you aren't reading my posts either. You keep referencing "setting a policy." who are you referring to here?

The conferences (schools).

There's no way they will allow decisions such as these to be made without written policy in place. And in no way will they allow written policy to be discriminatory in any fashion.

Obviously OHSAA rule is a minimum of 1 and both coaches have to agree after that 2 man crew is fair game and obviously 3 man is more of the standard. If you read my posts, I'm advocating that all schools and leagues (regardless of if they are "bad" or not have the option to select preferred 2 man or 3 man crews. My examples of the TCL I gave were clear examples of mismatch games that would be easy ones that both teams could agree too. But as an assigner if two middle pack teams agreed then that's fine too. I would make it completely optional for both boys and girls schools pending both schools agreed. Again speaking from experience and talking with many of fellow coaches there are many games I would do this for as three just aren't necessary.

Keep us posted when that happens. I won't hold my breath.

So we are not adding to the pool but we are expanding the number of available officials. So for example on a given Friday night let's say there are 30 varsity contests, currently that would require 90 officials. If say 5 of those contests only needed 2 man crews then we have 5 "extra" officials that night. Again, I keep hearing and seeing the officials shortage etc and yes of course we need more in the pipeline coming up but in the meantime if Lake and Rossford girls only need 2 for their Friday night game then we can make sure all the other games requesting 3 are covered (especially in the even of last minute call of etc) This is not a long term solution but a way to help fill gaps in the current environment of shortage.

So what do you say with a straight face to the coaches and/or parents of a girls game when they ask why they only get two officials and the boys get three?

 

[AllSports12]

I've said for years, get rid of the 3rd official. When that originally came up, it was thought that 3 officials would "clean up" the game. It's as physical as ever. We live a time when the majority of people want the "kids" to determine the outcome and not officials. What these people don't ever see is that by NOT calling obvious fouls, you're impacting the game just the same.
My rule, call it tight, the kids will adjust. You just set that tone and STICK TO IT, games will be much better, much more flow. We now have high school games that are sloppy, regardless of the talent level because officials don't call enough fouls. College, NBA, sure have 3 officials, you have a much different pay scale and you can pay these folks. High school officials are practically volunteering themselves for the little they get paid, and they get treated like crap. It's been this way for 50 years.

So why, if the officials didn't call enough fouls before this year, did the rule change that promotes even less fouls being called?

 

[BBcourt32]

The conferences (schools).

There's no way they will allow decisions such as these to be made without written policy in place. And in no way will they allow written policy to be discriminatory in any fashion.

Keep us posted when that happens. I won't hold my breath.

So what do you say with a straight face to the coaches and/or parents of a girls game when they ask why they only get two officials and the boys get three?

I'll check with our AD and see if I can get a copy of the league policy but I assume it something along the lines of 2 for Fresh/JV and 3 for Varsity is recommended (not required) The OHSAA policy doesn't even state that (probably why we see 2 in some conferences and 3 in others around the various places we play) If conferences had requirements of 2 or 3 and refs no showed or called off then games would be cancelled or made up but that never happens, they just play the game with the 1 or 2 officials they do have.

I see you still aren't reading too well. On your last point I have said multiple times this would be an OPTIONAL thing for both girls and boys teams (Regardless of their talent level) and by the way this happens all the time already, we have had one game this year already and probably an average of 2 a year the past several that only has two officials already, Did the the assigner tell us sorry or we are discriminating against us? Did the the AD or schools tell us anything, of course not. If the game is officiated properly with 2 or 3 officials that do there job then there are no complaints.

Also- I keep asking you for new ideas/solutions and you continue to avoid providing anything here and just bring nonsense talk about discrimination. Also still waiting on those legal cases you mention.

 

[14Red]

I'll check with our AD and see if I can get a copy of the league policy but I assume it something along the lines of 2 for Fresh/JV and 3 for Varsity is recommended (not required) The OHSAA policy doesn't even state that (probably why we see 2 in some conferences and 3 in others around the various places we play) If conferences had requirements of 2 or 3 and refs no showed or called off then games would be cancelled or made up but that never happens, they just play the game with the 1 or 2 officials they do have.

I see you still aren't reading too well. On your last point I have said multiple times this would be an OPTIONAL thing for both girls and boys teams (Regardless of their talent level) and by the way this happens all the time already, we have had one game this year already and probably an average of 2 a year the past several that only has two officials already, Did the the assigner tell us sorry or we are discriminating against us? Did the the AD or schools tell us anything, of course not. If the game is officiated properly with 2 or 3 officials that do there job then there are no complaints.

Also- I keep asking you for new ideas/solutions and you continue to avoid providing anything here and just bring nonsense talk about discrimination. Also still waiting on those legal cases you mention.

I do know alot of officials will refuse varsity games if there is only 2 officials over 3. Not sure why, they get paid the same and it helps the schools but it's just part of the politics of officiating. One thing I know for sure, we'll be complaining about officials today, tomorrow and 20 years from now. That never seems to stop. Our human inability to muzzle ourselves and accept authority just doesn't seem to ever get better. Maybe I'm just old now, but that doesn't seem to make a difference. I see as many old people have fits too. I think part of the issue is coaches allow teams to practice barn ball, they learn this is ok, then games start ok, get a little more physical, more physical and by the 3rd quarter is a free for all. The simple allowance of hand checking and riding players is a foul, and it's rarely called anymore unless the dribbler can pull it off.
I was a high school girls game last night, two mediocre teams, not great, not awful. Two girls fouled out and they probably could have had 8-9 fouls instead of 5. To me the more skilled players suffer because alot of defenders can guard someone if you're allowed to body up and hand check.

 

[Ericles]

NLL did it for years until they expanded this year, was fairly successful especially when the matchups were decent on both sides. Would like to see more leagues look at this at least once a year on rival games etc.

Two schools in our conference did that this year just before Christmas. They played the JV games on Wednesday night and then the two Varsity games on Friday night.

It also helps that the two schools are separated by only a mile and a half and a few farm fields.

 

[BBcourt32]

Two schools in our conference did that this year just before Christmas. They played the JV games on Wednesday night and then the two Varsity games on Friday night.

It also helps that the two schools are separated by only a mile and a half and a few farm fields.

Before this year the NLL would take every Friday in January and have the girls/boys league games. The setup would be on Thursday Fr girls, Fr Boys, then JV boys and on Friday JV girls, Varsity Girls, Varsity Boys. (For reference in regards to officials on the Friday set, we would have a 2 man for JV then different 3 man for varsity, and another different 3 man for boys varsity) It definitely made the girls games more packed and like a big game environment and probably didn't have much drop off for the boys games (some girls fans especially visitors may have left) Thought it was nice for the girls teams, not sure the boys coaches liked not having their JV play on the same night but anytime schools can work these in even once a year especially with a rival or near neighboring school its a fun event.

 

[AllSports12]

Also- I keep asking you for new ideas/solutions and you continue to avoid providing anything here and just bring nonsense talk about discrimination. Also still waiting on those legal cases you mention.

Your feelings about discrimination say it all. You have more than once indicated that you want it to be like it was back in the 70's and 80's.

And for the record, it was just 10 years ago in Indiana that the courts ruled that the inequities in scheduling boys and girls games violated Title IX. If you try to do something similar with regards to assiging officials, you will lose in court. (that's why it hasn't been done)

I'll leave the last word to you.

 

[Smarty2022]

I do know alot of officials will refuse varsity games if there is only 2 officials over 3. Not sure why, they get paid the same and it helps the schools but it's just part of the politics of officiating. One thing I know for sure, we'll be complaining about officials today, tomorrow and 20 years from now. That never seems to stop. Our human inability to muzzle ourselves and accept authority just doesn't seem to ever get better. Maybe I'm just old now, but that doesn't seem to make a difference. I see as many old people have fits too. I think part of the issue is coaches allow teams to practice barn ball, they learn this is ok, then games start ok, get a little more physical, more physical and by the 3rd quarter is a free for all. The simple allowance of hand checking and riding players is a foul, and it's rarely called anymore unless the dribbler can pull it off.
I was a high school girls game last night, two mediocre teams, not great, not awful. Two girls fouled out and they probably could have had 8-9 fouls instead of 5. To me the more skilled players suffer because alot of defenders can guard someone if you're allowed to body up and hand check.

You don’t think You and I should be Paid more if it’s just us 2 on a 3 Person Game? The Girls Games that You watch, what is level of play in your opinion?

 

[BBcourt32]

Your feelings about discrimination say it all. You have more than once indicated that you want it to be like it was back in the 70's and 80's.

And for the record, it was just 10 years ago in Indiana that the courts ruled that the inequities in scheduling boys and girls games violated Title IX. If you try to do something similar with regards to assiging officials, you will lose in court. (that's why it hasn't been done)

I'll leave the last word to you.

First, thank you for actually providing one answer to providing an example of a legal case.

Secondly, you obviously didn't take the time to read through the court decision. (That's a consistent theme with you) Reading through this, there is no mention of officials only "prime time" scheduling and equipment and participation issues, see nice summary from the Indy Star below.

Third, I reached out to some of the assigners and the feedback I received was "for varsity contests they schedule three officials but in the case that an official doesn't show, calls off, falls ill or injured then games are completed with two. Per OHSAA, games can be completed with one but both teams must agree upon that and not preferred." The other thing they mentioned was "Most leagues have 2 officials for JV and Frosh. Some leagues are thinking about a few games of 3 officials for JV to give those moving up to get experience. If three JV officials want to work in my league, they can but would split the $130.00 three ways." Which I think is interesting as a way to help transition the training from 2 man to 3 man mechanics. Also, I emailed Doug Ute and surprisingly he emailed me back and his response to my question of allowing less than 3 officials for boys/girls basketball "As noted, schools can play with less than 3 officials if both schools agree. This is the decision of the leagues schools or left between two schools who are playing. In some areas of the state and in some sports the leagues agree to lower the limit when faced with issues of available officials." So clearly 2 man crew games are allowable and happen across the state already, where are all those lawsuits or games postponed because only 2 officials. So if you disagree with the Executive Director of OHSAA you can take that up with him. If you want the emails, I'll be happy to forward them to you as well.

Fourth- My feelings on discrimination are that its completely wrong and I do not support it in any way. You keep not understanding me. I can't be more clear, I would make this Optional for both BOYS and GIRLS contests, BOTH teams would have to agree. And no please don't take me back to the 70's or 80's as the game was much different I just wish the quality of officiating would catch up with the times.

The Indianapolis Star

IPS, feds reach agreement over Title IX sports violations.

www.indystar.com

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/investigations/05105002-a.pdf

 

[14Red]

Here we go down into a rabbit hole and just talk and talk and talk about a simple problem. Not enough officials. Solution, go to two person crews. We get way too caught up in the government bureaucracy and Title IX and equity...SMH. What do we want, to have varsity contests on every night of the week because we don't have enough officials for everyone to have games Fridays and Saturdays? We hire 3 officials in case someone calls off? I mean how many times does and official not show up for an assignment? If they do that often they probably don't get many calls.
Finally, what's the one thing that schools, athletic departments constantly complain about? Money, right? So we know that IN GENERAL, you have girls games on Fridays and Saturdays, the attendance isn't going to be there like the boys. This isn't about equal opportunity or "showcasing" the ladies talent. It's simply maximizing ticket gates. Good heavens we make things so difficult. You know what happens when you have girls games Fridays and Saturdays, many people that would normally be in your gym for a boys game that night is at another gym boys game, or watching a movie or out doing something else.

 

[CasualFan24]

Here we go down into a rabbit hole and just talk and talk and talk about a simple problem. Not enough officials. Solution, go to two person crews. We get way too caught up in the government bureaucracy and Title IX and equity...SMH. What do we want, to have varsity contests on every night of the week because we don't have enough officials for everyone to have games Fridays and Saturdays? We hire 3 officials in case someone calls off? I mean how many times does and official not show up for an assignment? If they do that often they probably don't get many calls.
Finally, what's the one thing that schools, athletic departments constantly complain about? Money, right? So we know that IN GENERAL, you have girls games on Fridays and Saturdays, the attendance isn't going to be there like the boys. This isn't about equal opportunity or "showcasing" the ladies talent. It's simply maximizing ticket gates. Good heavens we make things so difficult. You know what happens when you have girls games Fridays and Saturdays, many people that would normally be in your gym for a boys game that night is at another gym boys game, or watching a movie or out doing something else.

The state government does not see it this way. Title IX is a real thing, and it's coming. The days of boys playing on all the Friday nights are coming to an end - we're not talking about OHSAA, we're talking about government officials calling and interviewing schools about scheduling and everything else that could be viewed as unfair treatment of girls sports.

Pretty much ends the 2-man varsity crew conversation also - because if you have 1 boys game with a 3 man crew on it - then you better have every girls game with a 3 man crew. Has to be black and white with no gray area - everything needs to be the same and equal according to the state. We're going to see some really wonky scheduling for basketball soon, get ready....

 

[14Red]

The state government does not see it this way. Title IX is a real thing, and it's coming. The days of boys playing on all the Friday nights are coming to an end - we're not talking about OHSAA, we're talking about government officials calling and interviewing schools about scheduling and everything else that could be viewed as unfair treatment of girls sports.

Pretty much ends the 2-man varsity crew conversation also - because if you have 1 boys game with a 3 man crew on it - then you better have every girls game with a 3 man crew. Has to be black and white with no gray area - everything needs to be the same and equal according to the state. We're going to see some really wonky scheduling for basketball soon, get ready....

Use two man crews for the boys too, I don't care. I just don't think the 3rd guy has every been justified. It was supposed to clean things up and make the game better, it's as physical as ever and players get away with more. I understand the state government and the equality thing, I just don't know how you can see a train going over a cliff and just let it go because we want to be "fair".

BTW, girls sports, especially at the high school level is as good as it's ever been before. I don't know what the gripe is.

 

[CasualFan24]

Use two man crews for the boys too, I don't care. I just don't think the 3rd guy has every been justified. It was supposed to clean things up and make the game better, it's as physical as ever and players get away with more. I understand the state government and the equality thing, I just don't know how you can see a train going over a cliff and just let it go because we want to be "fair".

BTW, girls sports, especially at the high school level is as good as it's ever been before. I don't know what the gripe is.

How would YOU like the game to be officiated? NFHS and OHSAA made the hand-check a point of emphasis a few years ago. You know how long it lasted, about half a season. You know why? Because college scouts, and HS head coaches every where were livid because there were 100 whistles in games, and their best players were in foul trouble the whole game. Shall we go back to that? Was that good basketball? It's crazy because officials either get criticized for "being the center of attention" or not blowing the whistle enough. Consistency throughout the game is the only thing you can and or should ask for from a crew. If the same call is being made (or not made) in the 4th quarter as it was in the 1st quarter, just be happy with it.

You guys want to remove an official from the games when it's hard enough for 3 officials to see everything that happens on the court. You think the game is "as physical as ever and players get away with more" - what in the world do you think is going to happen if you go back down to 2-man for these games?!

 

[CasualFan24]

Use two man crews for the boys too, I don't care. I just don't think the 3rd guy has every been justified. It was supposed to clean things up and make the game better, it's as physical as ever and players get away with more. I understand the state government and the equality thing, I just don't know how you can see a train going over a cliff and just let it go because we want to be "fair".

BTW, girls sports, especially at the high school level is as good as it's ever been before. I don't know what the gripe is.

This is just false. Girls numbers in sports across the board are down state and nationwide. I'll say it again, 10 years ago, even the smallest schools still fielded a JV team (there were even freshman girls teams) - now there are D1 schools with 1500 kids in the high schools that can't field a JV team. That is not a characteristic of a sport that is "as good as it's ever been"

 

[14Red]

How would YOU like the game to be officiated? NFHS and OHSAA made the hand-check a point of emphasis a few years ago. You know how long it lasted, about half a season. You know why? Because college scouts, and HS head coaches every where were livid because there were 100 whistles in games, and their best players were in foul trouble the whole game. Shall we go back to that? Was that good basketball? It's crazy because officials either get criticized for "being the center of attention" or not blowing the whistle enough. Consistency throughout the game is the only thing you can and or should ask for from a crew. If the same call is being made (or not made) in the 4th quarter as it was in the 1st quarter, just be happy with it.

You guys want to remove an official from the games when it's hard enough for 3 officials to see everything that happens on the court. You think the game is "as physical as ever and players get away with more" - what in the world do you think is going to happen if you go back down to 2-man for these games?!

You have to stick with it. Every single year, we hear, "we're cleaning up the contact - we're cleaning up the contact" and a month in officials cave. Stick to your guns. Call the fouls, in a week or two, players will learn. I'd rather the skilled players take over than the strongest.

 

[14Red]

This is just false. Girls numbers in sports across the board are down state and nationwide. I'll say it again, 10 years ago, even the smallest schools still fielded a JV team (there were even freshman girls teams) - now there are D1 schools with 1500 kids in the high schools that can't field a JV team. That is not a characteristic of a sport that is "as good as it's ever been"

Ok, now you're making my point of why to not give the girls the "prime-time" games. There are many reasons numbers are down, one is more one sport athletes. Look at the makeup of basketball teams compared to 10-15 years ago. Smaller, why? The tall, thin athletic girl is playing club volleyball year around instead of basketball. Is that the state's problem? Is that the school's problem? No. And let's face it, as much are you guys want, you cannot force girls into playing sports. By nature less girls play sports, I've seen it for decades. Girls sports prime is from about age 8-15. By that point, many are simply tired of playing sports because it's been hammered into them for years. Girls like to hang with friends, be kids,, drive cars, get jobs, have boyfriends. It has nothing to do with not having opportunities in sports.