Elder Basketball 2020-2021

UCArch said:
Why the attitude?

I get that obviously. Individually, it’s fine, but it creates a collective consequence.

If the coaches want to continue to operate this way, that’s on them. But they are without a doubt making their own brackets harder. That seems dumb.

You can acknowledge the current process and think it’s dumb at the same time. A few of you are trying to bait me into saying Elders decision is dumb, which I don’t understand.

Its not about any schools personal choice, it’s about a dumb process that can collectively hurt them as it plays out. How you can’t understand that is beyond me.
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Not trying to bait you into anything, you've said plenty to show that's what you think.

If your argument is, the process is stupid because... then I would agree with you, but that isn't really what you're saying.

You're on the fence between blaming the process for being dumb and the schools decision for being dumb. Based on the process as is, I disagree with your thought, that the school's choice to go in a different bracket than Moeller is dumb.
 
adselder09 said:
Not trying to bait you into anything, you've said plenty to show that's what you think.

If your argument is, the process is stupid because... then I would agree with you, but that isn't really what you're saying.

You're on the fence between blaming the process for being dumb and the schools decision for being dumb. Based on the process as is, I disagree with your thought, that the school's choice to go in a different bracket than Moeller is dumb.
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No he's saying the process is dumb, AND the schools are making the process even worse for themselves by continuing to take that process to it's extreme end, which is what we've seen for the last 5+ years.

You said he thinks East, Elder or X should have gone in with Moeller. I don't think anyone has actually said that or insinuated that here except you. Even in my alternate option of straight seeding the tournament, the top seeds get pushed as far away from each other as possible. The problem we have here with not just the current system, but how the system is being used, is that we aren't just getting the top seeds moving away from Moeller. We are also getting all of the middle seeds moving as well. That is what is causing a severe imbalance of the tounament, making Moeller's bracket even more easy for a 1 seed, and making the other top seeds brackets even harder.

The argument he is making is that by everyone as a group choosing to avoid one team because they want an easier road, they are in affect making all of their roads harder, defeating their intent.
 
I believe they went to this system for more transparency. Its not perfect but until we get a basketball harbin it probably wont change.
 
Philly_Cat said:
No he's saying the process is dumb, AND the schools are making the process even worse for themselves by continuing to take that process to it's extreme end, which is what we've seen for the last 5+ years.

You said he thinks East, Elder or X should have gone in with Moeller. I don't think anyone has actually said that or insinuated that here except you. Even in my alternate option of straight seeding the tournament, the top seeds get pushed as far away from each other as possible. The problem we have here with not just the current system, but how the system is being used, is that we aren't just getting the top seeds moving away from Moeller. We are also getting all of the middle seeds moving as well. That is what is causing a severe imbalance of the tounament, making Moeller's bracket even more easy for a 1 seed, and making the other top seeds brackets even harder.

The argument he is making is that by everyone as a group choosing to avoid one team because they want an easier road, they are in affect making all of their roads harder, defeating their intent.
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Right. Seems pretty simple to understand.

?‍♂️
 
You can prefer the draw and like the setup - that’s fine I have no issue with that.

But you can’t deny what we’re saying. It’s the truth.

Philly makes a great point about the mid tier seeds. Of course a 1-5 seed isn’t going to jump in Moellers bracket, that would be stupid. In fact, I don’t even think you can.

But the teams in the 6-15 range are all trying to avoid Moeller too. I’d venture to guess that Moellers bracket is the last to get completed and teams are forced to go there because it’s the only place left to go.

And Moeller is sitting silently in the background thinking “yes, they did it again”. Their whole intent is to avoid Moeller yet they’re avoiding Moeller because they’ll never even get the chance to play them because they made their road to get there extremely difficult.

As I mentioned, I don’t think coaches even know they are creating this. They are all just happy with their drawl because their main intent was to avoid Moeller. Call yet they don’t realize they just made things extra hard for them selves.
 
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Think of it like this. You job is doing a giveaway for two prizes. One is a car and the other is a new phone. Every employee gets one ticket to put in the box of the item they want to try and win. The assumption from everyone is that because of the huge difference in value between the two prizes of course you're going to want the car. So in your wisdom you put your ticket in the phone box thinking that you'll have a better chance of winning that since everyone else will be going for the car. But everyone else thinks the same thing and you, and almost everyone puts their tickets in for the phone. Well now it has become way harder for any of you to win the phone and easier to win the car.

That's an overly simplistic view of what we are talking about with the tournament, but similar enough that I hope you get the point.
 
cincyelder said:
I believe they went to this system for more transparency. Its not perfect but until we get a basketball harbin it probably wont change.
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PA has a "harbin" system. Every team doesn't make the tournament either and they have consistency across the state with how the tournament is run, but those are completely separate arguments on their own. .
 
Philly_Cat said:
No he's saying the process is dumb, AND the schools are making the process even worse for themselves by continuing to take that process to it's extreme end, which is what we've seen for the last 5+ years.

You said he thinks East, Elder or X should have gone in with Moeller. I don't think anyone has actually said that or insinuated that here except you. Even in my alternate option of straight seeding the tournament, the top seeds get pushed as far away from each other as possible. The problem we have here with not just the current system, but how the system is being used, is that we aren't just getting the top seeds moving away from Moeller. We are also getting all of the middle seeds moving as well. That is what is causing a severe imbalance of the tounament, making Moeller's bracket even more easy for a 1 seed, and making the other top seeds brackets even harder.

The argument he is making is that by everyone as a group choosing to avoid one team because they want an easier road, they are in affect making all of their roads harder, defeating their intent.
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I understand what he's saying, he's just doing a poor job of explaining it. You explained it much better.

He didn't directly come out and say xyz should have jumped in with Moeller, but when pressed that xyz schools should have, he said why not since you'll have to face them eventually.

I still stand by the fact that it's smarter for a school to jump in with an Elder or X or East or Fairfield, then to jump in with Moeller. Few years back Elder had a team that beat Moeller, received a top 5 seed, guess who jumped into their bracket as a 2nd tier seed (10-11-12) and damn near beat them? Oak Hills. I would absolutely jump into a bracket against a team that I match up better with, or thought I had a better chance at beating.
 
Philly_Cat said:
Think of it like this. You job is doing a giveaway for two prizes. One is a car and the other is a new phone. Every employee gets one ticket to put in the box of the item they want to try and win. The assumption from everyone is that because of the huge difference in value between the two prizes of course you're going to want the car. So in your wisdom you put your ticket in the phone box thinking that you'll have a better chance of winning that since everyone else will be going for the car. But everyone else thinks the same thing and you, and almost everyone puts their tickets in for the phone. Well now it has become way harder for any of you to win the phone and easier to win the car.

That's an overly simplistic view of what we are talking about with the tournament, but similar enough that I hope you get the point.
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Again I understand what's being said, I just disagree with the notion it would be better for teams to jump in with Moeller in order to make their bracket harder. If the goal of the other teams is to wear Moeller down over a fear games so they don't win the region as opposed to finding the best place for their team to potentially win the region, then sure that makes sense. But blocking Moeller from winning isn't the name of the game.
 
UCArch said:
You can prefer the draw and like the setup - that’s fine I have no issue with that.

But you can’t deny what we’re saying. It’s the truth.

Philly makes a great point about the mid tier seeds. Of course a 1-5 seed isn’t going to jump in Moellers bracket, that would be stupid. In fact, I don’t even think you can.

But the teams in the 6-15 range are all trying to avoid Moeller too. I’d venture to guess that Moellers bracket is the last to get completed and teams are forced to go there because it’s the only place left to go.

And Moeller is sitting silently in the background thinking “yes, they did it again”. Their whole intent is to avoid Moeller yet they’re avoiding Moeller because they’ll never even get the chance to play them because they made their road to get there extremely difficult.

As I mentioned, I don’t think coaches even know they are creating this. They are all just happy with their drawl because their main intent was to avoid Moeller. Call yet they don’t realize they just made things extra hard for them selves.
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I said I agree that the draw is dumb. I also never disputed the fact that the Moeller bracket is much easier than others.

To me the argument is centered around those 6-15 seeds. Those are the ones not taking the chance to go in Moeller's bracket, but I can't fault them for it. But again I'll say, the goal for the other teams in the region isn't to make Moeller's path tougher, it's to win the region themselves. You can say the easiest way to win the region is to beat Moeller in their bracket, but how many times has that happened in the past 5 years - I'm talking them losing at Districts or before - maybe once?
 
LOL - no one has beat them in their district because none of the good teams challenges their sectional or placed themselves in their district. That’s the whole point.

The next best seed in their sectional this year is a 16 seed. That’s absurd when compared to the other sectionals.

Last year the best seed was 15. The year before that it was 20!!

District finals were against a 12 seed both years. Most good teams are playing a 12 seed in game 2-3 in a normal bracket.

Completely making the most dominant team more dominant. 100% - without a doubt making their path harder and Moellers easier when everyone has the same “anyone but Moe” strategy.
 
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UCArch said:
LOL - no one has beat them in their district because none of the good teams challenges their sectional or placed themselves in their district. That’s the whole point.

The next best seed in their sectional this year is a 16 seed. That’s absurd when compared to the other sectionals.

Last year the best seed was 15. The year before that it was 20!!

District finals were against a 12 seed both years. Most good teams are playing a 12 seed in game 2-3 in a normal bracket.

Completely making the most dominant team more dominant. 100% - without a doubt making their path harder and Moellers easier when everyone has the same “anyone but Moe” strategy.
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When I read the word district it brings up another thing that has made me scratch my head at how things are done here. In most places, NEO, the entire state of PA, and I'd argue most of the country, a district is a geographical location made up of a specific group of schools that reside within it, or at the very least, assigned to it. For SWO the word district is nothing more than a title. In my opinion, with the way SWO is setup it devalues the awards of district and sectional champions, because there is no true year to year comparison to look at because a SWO "district" isn't really an actual thing.

But again, thats a whole other argument lol
 
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UCArch said:
LOL - no one has beat them in their district because none of the good teams challenges their sectional or placed themselves in their district. That’s the whole point.

The next best seed in their sectional this year is a 16 seed. That’s absurd when compared to the other sectionals.

Last year the best seed was 15. The year before that it was 20!!

District finals were against a 12 seed both years. Most good teams are playing a 12 seed in game 2-3 in a normal bracket.

Completely making the most dominant team more dominant. 100% - without a doubt making their path harder and Moellers easier when everyone has the same “anyone but Moe” strategy.
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I agree Moeller's bracket/district is easier because of this, but I disagree that it makes the road harder for those avoiding Moe. You can say the odds of beating good teams 2-3-4 games in a row is tough, but each game should be looked at individually - so for instance if you're a 10-11-12 seed, is it easier for you to beat Moeller or a 6-7-8 seed, then repeat for the next game, etc. We can just agree to disagree on this one.
 
adselder09 said:
I agree Moeller's bracket/district is easier because of this, but I disagree that it makes the road harder for those avoiding Moe. You can say the odds of beating good teams 2-3-4 games in a row is tough, but each game should be looked at individually - so for instance if you're a 10-11-12 seed, is it easier for you to beat Moeller or a 6-7-8 seed, then repeat for the next game, etc. We can just agree to disagree on this one.
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I'm with you on this.... I understand the point they are making but it doesn't hold water for me. There were two teams in this years draw outside the top 5 that I thought had even a chance to beat Moe and that Was West High (Length, athletic, and wont back down) and a full strength Hamilton squad with their big. But when examining the bracket it's much easier for West High to advance to District by beating a down LaSalle team and a LE that isn't playing well. If they were to advance they would play Elder in District who they gave all they could handle in reg season. If I were Hamilton I would have jumped in with Moe instead of trying to beat Princeton and Elder but their transfers are still ineligible so they made the right move.

Let me ask, what team should have jumped in with Moe instead of taking the route they chose?
 
I think teams like Lakota West or Hamilton or Princeton would have been good candidates to jump in with Moe. Maybe even West Hi.

West could be very dangerous.
 
UCArch said:
I think teams like Lakota West or Hamilton or Princeton would have been good candidates to jump in with Moe. Maybe even West Hi.

West could be very dangerous.
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Moe would beat West by 20+ they are waaay to small to give Moe any problems. West is also in the most open bracket there is with FF Walnut and Mason. You have to remember there are 5 sectionals for the Cincy area. If there were only 3 or 4 I would agree that jumping in with Moe would be smart instead of going through a true gauntlet of teams.
 
My rationale is that they have 2 players that have the ability to score 30+. Not alot of teams have that, and that’s what you need for an upset in the tourney. They would have no chance in a grind it out game (as would most).

They also have a big guy that’s been playing very well, but he’s around 6’5.

There aren’t any teams that are going to match up size wise with Moe.
 
UCArch said:
My rationale is that they have 2 players that have the ability to score 30+. Not alot of teams have that, and that’s what you need for an upset in the tourney. They would have no chance in a grind it out game (as would most).

They also have a big guy that’s been playing very well, but he’s around 6’5.

There aren’t any teams that are going to match up size wise with Moe.
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IMO West would have about a 1% chance of beating Moe and that's in a perfect storm. Mahaffey would be all over Dudukovich leaving 1 scorer left on the floor. West IMO has about a 33% chance of winning the sectional they are in. The odds tell me it's much smarter to leave Moe alone.
 
JElder said:
IMO West would have about a 1% chance of beating Moe and that's in a perfect storm. Mahaffey would be all over Dudukovich leaving 1 scorer left on the floor. West IMO has about a 33% chance of winning the sectional they are in. The odds tell me it's much smarter to leave Moe alone.
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The odds of any team getting to the Regional Finals is super low. Only 2 make it and one has a much easier path.

LW probably only has a slim chance to get there anyway, so why not take the shot early? That goes for most teams not in the top 5 seeds.
 
UCArch said:
The odds of any team getting to the Regional Finals is super low. Only 2 make it and one has a much easier path.

LW probably only has a slim chance to get there anyway, so why not take the shot early? That goes for most teams not in the top 5 seeds.
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Because their odds of getting to the Regional Final in the district they chose is better than getting to the Regional Final by way of jumping into Moeller's. What is so hard to understand here? You can't seem to grasp that a team can both choose an easier path for themselves AND avoid Moeller's district.
 
You’ve agreed and said you understand the premise that everyone avoiding Moeller creates tougher brackets outside of Moellers bracket, yet continue to say it’s easier for a team to make a regional bracket outside of Moellers bracket.

I can’t seem to grasp that.

You honestly think Elder has a better chance of getting to the Regional Bracket in their bracket vs. Moellers bracket? Outside of Moeller, it’s extremely weak.

To get to the Regional, we’re offering you the choice of playing Moeller once or playing Princeton, Lakota East and Centerville consecutively, you’re choosing door number two? Really?

You’re that scared of Moeller?
 
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adselder09 said:
Because their odds of getting to the Regional Final in the district they chose is better than getting to the Regional Final by way of jumping into Moeller's. What is so hard to understand here? You can't seem to grasp that a team can both choose an easier path for themselves AND avoid Moeller's district.
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It’s best to ignore him. You’re going to give yourself a stroke trying to explain it any further.
 
Some games of note from Tuesday:

Taylor bests Harrison 56-44. Harrison now 3-14

Winton Woods beats Kings 68-66. WW Jermaine Matthews goes for 31. WW outrebounds Kings 47-22. WW now 2-11, Kings 6-13

Middletown throttles Hamilton by 20. The Middies outrebounded Hamilton 27-11

Princeton still idle on a Covid break. Schedule says they finally play tomorrow night at Mason

Fairfield comes from behind and clinches a share of the GMC? with a big win over Lakota East 66-58. FF now has a 3 game lead in the loss column in the GMC. With Colerain in it's 3 GMC games still on the schedule, I believe Fairfield is pretty much a lock to win the GMC
 
cincyelder said:
Some games of note from Tuesday:

Taylor bests Harrison 56-44. Harrison now 3-14

Winton Woods beats Kings 68-66. WW Jermaine Matthews goes for 31. WW outrebounds Kings 47-22. WW now 2-11, Kings 6-13

Middletown throttles Hamilton by 20. The Middies outrebounded Hamilton 27-11

Princeton still idle on a Covid break. Schedule says they finally play tomorrow night at Mason

Fairfield comes from behind and clinches a share of the GMC? with a big win over Lakota East 66-58. FF now has a 3 game lead in the loss column in the GMC. With Colerain in it's 3 GMC games still on the schedule, I believe Fairfield is pretty much a lock to win the GMC
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Most of the GMC teams are very skiddish. Never know what you will get game to game.
 
Omar said:
It’s best to ignore him. You’re going to give yourself a stroke trying to explain it any further.
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Then let’s also stop acting like what I’m saying has no merit. It’s an obvious consequence of everyone’s collective strategy to avoid Moeller. It’s a common complaint of those that understand the cons of the draw.

But like I said, if coaches want to continue to make their brackets harder, but feel good about it because they avoided Moeller, well, that’s on them.

And why do you act like you own this space? You don’t deliver near the content of some others (JElder, cincyelder), and all you seem to do is complain. Apparently you get kicked out of a lot of games too.
 
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UCArch said:
You’ve agreed and said you understand the premise that everyone avoiding Moeller creates tougher brackets outside of Moellers bracket, yet continue to say it’s easier for a team to make a regional bracket outside of Moellers bracket.

I can’t seem to grasp that.

You honestly think Elder has a better chance of getting to the Regional Bracket in their bracket vs. Moellers bracket? Outside of Moeller, it’s extremely weak.

To get to the Regional, we’re offering you the choice of playing Moeller once or playing Princeton, Lakota East and Centerville consecutively, you’re choosing door number two? Really?

You’re that scared of Moeller?
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Elder would be the favorite vs all of those teams outside of Centerville and that's a pickem IMO. So to answer your question, yes it would be much easier for Elder to beat LE and Centerville than to just beat Moe to make a Regional Final.

Let me ask it this way:

Would you rather play Hamilton/Princeton, LE, and Centerville to make a Regional Final OR

Moeller, Miamisburg, X/Wayne to make Regional Final?

State Rankings: Moe 1 X3 Centerville 9...
 
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