DeWine: School Buildings will not reopen this Spring

The Dock

Well-known member
Exactly. The data has not confirmed the models and speculation that caused the shut down. 1M unemployed weekly.
It doesn't confirm the speculation that caused the shut down because we did shut down. And everyone, largely, took it seriously. Models can change, they often do: science is not perfect. It was never 'the data was wrong', it was never 'the Ohio Department of Public Health/the CDC/Dr Fauci etc were all wrong.' Our president gutted the pandemic response team in 2018, our president threw the pandemic playbook in the garbage can that was crafted by the National Security Council, and he kept dicking around in January and February when the intelligence community told him to start planning. So absent any preparation, guidance and planning by the federal government, the states were left to themselves to figure this absolute disaster out for their people and find their own way.

We don't criticize NOAA or public safety officials when a hurricane's impact is lessened because of changes in the path, velocity and all other physics variables integrated within weather patterns... do we? You ever hear anyone say "oh Hurricane Harvey wasn't as bad as we thought, everyone overreacted?" No, at least I hope you don't! Why not? Because there was a canary in the coalmine our nation learned when it came to not preparing for the worst. That canary's name was Katrina, and it was a horrific storm that was coupled with an incredibly pathetic response effort, and scores of deaths that would've otherwise been prevented had the diligent parties been prepared ended up happening.
 
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The Dock

Well-known member
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And the whole point of social distancing, shutting down, staying at home - it was so our state wasn't getting ~37,500 new infections per day of a virus we knew very little about. And given developments as recent as today, where the University of Washington revised the "middle-case figure" of COVID-19 deaths by early August to 134,475 (which is different from the 72,400 deaths figure that they projected last Tuesday) because of eased restrictions across the country, now is not the time for Ohio (or really, any state) to take off the parachute pre-maturely. We're still in freefall, so to speak.
 

brianwr112

Well-known member
Exactly. The data has not confirmed the models and speculation that caused the shut down. 1M unemployed weekly.
You still didn't answer the question...If you were in charge would you overturn the orders put in place by our elected officials? Definitely not easy decisions but ones they've stood by. Remember, the liabilities on your shoulders now.
 

Philly_Cat

Well-known member
View attachment 7023

And the whole point of social distancing, shutting down, staying at home - it was so our state wasn't getting ~37,500 new infections per day of a virus we knew very little about. And given developments as recent as today, where the University of Washington revised the "middle-case figure" of COVID-19 deaths by early August to 134,475 (which is different from the 72,400 deaths figure that they projected last Tuesday) because of eased restrictions across the country, now is not the time for Ohio (or really, any state) to take off the parachute pre-maturely. We're still in freefall, so to speak.
You really need to pump the brakes on all this rational, nuanced thinking. This is not the time or place for such things!
 

BASESWIMPARENT

Well-known member
You still didn't answer the question...If you were in charge would you overturn the orders put in place by our elected officials? Definitely not easy decisions but ones they've stood by. Remember, the liabilities on your shoulders now.
After three weeks, I would have unwound the hospitals and manufacturing after 6 to 8 bars, restaurants and clubs
 

BASESWIMPARENT

Well-known member
View attachment 7023

And the whole point of social distancing, shutting down, staying at home - it was so our state wasn't getting ~37,500 new infections per day of a virus we knew very little about. And given developments as recent as today, where the University of Washington revised the "middle-case figure" of COVID-19 deaths by early August to 134,475 (which is different from the 72,400 deaths figure that they projected last Tuesday) because of eased restrictions across the country, now is not the time for Ohio (or really, any state) to take off the parachute pre-maturely. We're still in freefall, so to speak.
Model was wrong. The premise is wrong. Every assumption about every model has been wrong.
 

BASESWIMPARENT

Well-known member
It doesn't confirm the speculation that caused the shut down because we did shut down. And everyone, largely, took it seriously. Models can change, they often do: science is not perfect. It was never 'the data was wrong', it was never 'the Ohio Department of Public Health/the CDC/Dr Fauci etc were all wrong.' Our president gutted the pandemic response team in 2018, our president threw the pandemic playbook in the garbage can that was crafted by the National Security Council, and he kept dicking around in January and February when the intelligence community told him to start planning. So absent any preparation, guidance and planning by the federal government, the states were left to themselves to figure this absolute disaster out for their people and find their own way.

We don't criticize NOAA or public safety officials when a hurricane's impact is lessened because of changes in the path, velocity and all other physics variables integrated within weather patterns... do we? You ever hear anyone say "oh Hurricane Harvey wasn't as bad as we thought, everyone overreacted?" No, at least I hope you don't! Why not? Because there was a canary in the coalmine our nation learned when it came to not preparing for the worst. That canary's name was Katrina, and it was a horrific storm that was coupled with an incredibly pathetic response effort, and scores of deaths that would've otherwise been prevented had the diligent parties been prepared ended up happening.
Wrong, there is no data to support that the mitigation did anything. Again, before the mitigation meaning regardless of the shut down wew were staring at 3K to 4K dead,. Out of Dr. Acton's own mouth.
 

BASESWIMPARENT

Well-known member
It doesn't confirm the speculation that caused the shut down because we did shut down. And everyone, largely, took it seriously. Models can change, they often do: science is not perfect. It was never 'the data was wrong', it was never 'the Ohio Department of Public Health/the CDC/Dr Fauci etc were all wrong.' Our president gutted the pandemic response team in 2018, our president threw the pandemic playbook in the garbage can that was crafted by the National Security Council, and he kept dicking around in January and February when the intelligence community told him to start planning. So absent any preparation, guidance and planning by the federal government, the states were left to themselves to figure this absolute disaster out for their people and find their own way.

We don't criticize NOAA or public safety officials when a hurricane's impact is lessened because of changes in the path, velocity and all other physics variables integrated within weather patterns... do we? You ever hear anyone say "oh Hurricane Harvey wasn't as bad as we thought, everyone overreacted?" No, at least I hope you don't! Why not? Because there was a canary in the coalmine our nation learned when it came to not preparing for the worst. That canary's name was Katrina, and it was a horrific storm that was coupled with an incredibly pathetic response effort, and scores of deaths that would've otherwise been prevented had the diligent parties been prepared ended up happening.
hurricane's are not made by man. We shut the economy down. We did. Now we are cutting 465M from the education budget just to keep the state afloat.
 

Philly_Cat

Well-known member
hurricane's are not made by man. We shut the economy down. We did. Now we are cutting 465M from the education budget just to keep the state afloat.
Sigh

And towns, cities, and states get shut down and even evacuated for storms. Ohio was shut down due to a virus. The shutdown is the response, not the threat. Just as for a storm the shutdown is the response not the threat. At least do your comparisons properly.

You don't take preventative measures for a storm AFTER it hits. Well, I guess you could, but you'd suffer a lot worse working that way. And it also kinda defeats the term "preventative". But that's the thing with people such as yourself, if the results are not as catastrophic as anticipated than everyone must have been wrong. Completely ignoring all the steps taken prior to help make sure the results were exactly that, NOT as catastrophic.

And god forbid nothing bad comes from it. That would be the ultimate sin that needs to be punished. Then everyone was definitely wrong. Again, ignoring all the measures taken prior that lead to nothing bad coming from it. It's kind of like the people that are against vaccines. Because they don't see the desease anymore, the people giving the vaccine must be wrong because nothing bad is happening. Those people oddly need to get polio in order to feel a need to be protected from polio.
 
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BASESWIMPARENT

Well-known member
Sigh

And towns, cities, and states get shut down and even evacuated for storms. Ohio was shut down due to a virus. The shutdown is the response, not the threat. Just as for a storm the shutdown is the response not the threat. At least do your comparisons properly.

You don't take preventative measures for a storm AFTER it hits. Well, I guess you could, but you'd suffer a lot worse working that way. And it also kinda defeats the term "preventative". But that's the thing with people such as yourself, if the results are not as catastrophic as anticipated than everyone must have been wrong. Completely ignoring all the steps taken prior to help make sure the results were exactly that, NOT as catastrophic.

And god forbid nothing bad comes from it. That would be the ultimate sin that needs to be punished. Then everyone was definitely wrong. Again, ignoring all the measures taken prior that lead to nothing bad coming from it. It's kind of like the people that are against vaccines. Because they don't see the desease anymore, the people giving the vaccine must be wrong because nothing bad is happening. Those people oddly need to get polio in order to feel a need to be protected from polio.
What are you talking about? You shut up the windows, leave if you have to and come back after the storm. No comparison at all. Stay home Philly. You will be alright.
 

brianwr112

Well-known member
Literally once in a millennium situation. Stay home if you don't feel safe. You will be alright.
Actually there have been numerous storms or other natural events where people have died, been injured, had to relocate and etc. I'm not good at math but I think that makes them more than a once in a millennium occurrence.
 

Philly_Cat

Well-known member
What are you talking about? You shut up the windows, leave if you have to and come back after the storm. No comparison at all. Stay home Philly. You will be alright.
You've apparently never lived on the coast. Towns get shut down, mandated by the government depending upon how bad the incoming storm is supposed to be. Sometimes towns are evacuated as well. And if you think Katrina is the only time that happens, again, you've never lived on the coast. It happens pretty frequently. That's why it was such a big deal when the president altered a hurricane path map. Those are a major thing used by the local and city governments on the coast. Altering them can cost lives if the right people aren't warned, and on the other end it can cost money if people are warned that shouldn't be.
 
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Philly_Cat

Well-known member
I mean, damn, let's talk about something more close to home. Ohio has roads dedicated as snow emergency routes. If there is a storm bad enough you're not allowed to park on those roads. Park there and watch your vehicle get towed. I've lived on a snow emergency route rd in Akron. I always parked on my street daily.........except when a snow emergency was called. And if you've lived in the northeast you know that a pretty frequent occurrence lol
 

BASESWIMPARENT

Well-known member
This is nothing like a temporary storm related emergency. Nothing at all. Stay home Philly, I am telling you, you will be fine.
 

Philly_Cat

Well-known member
This is nothing like a temporary storm related emergency. Nothing at all. Stay home Philly, I am telling you, you will be fine.
Your whole point was that the government never shuts down businesses or forces people to stay off the streets. I gave you, not just a single example of that happening, but that it happens all the time every year. Maybe not to this extent and length, but it regularly happens.
 

Philly_Cat

Well-known member
This is nothing like a temporary storm related emergency. Nothing at all. Stay home Philly, I am telling you, you will be fine.
And I'm not staying at home. I've been fortunate/unfortunate to have to go out and work during this entire ordeal. I'd prefer to be out coaching baseball and watching my own kids play sports, but it is what it is. It's not the end of the world that I can't, and what I've experienced so far and continue to experience, hasn't felt out of line. So yea, I already know I'll be fine, or each day I hope I will be, but thanks for the advice.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
I was wondering when people would bring up weather an the govt shutting down places.

Valid argument, to a point, but a difference is those shutdowns are local to where there is the issue. They dont shut down 9hio when New York get a hurricane

Some counties in Ohio have diff snow levels where a level 3 states businesses are closed and you can cited for leaving your house.

Again, specific to local areas, typically only a day or two a year, and it truly is a Hazzard for most folks to go out. Hell, business would be so slow those days anwyas it would be worth opening.

So yes, govt does shut down areas from time to time but not with a wide brush like this.
 

BASESWIMPARENT

Well-known member
And I'm not staying at home. I've been fortunate/unfortunate to have to go out and work during this entire ordeal. I'd prefer to be out coaching baseball and watching my own kids play sports, but it is what it is. It's not the end of the world that I can't, and what I've experienced so far and continue to experience, hasn't felt out of line. So yea, I already know I'll be fine, or each day I hope I will be, but thanks for the advice.
You are welcome.
 

Philly_Cat

Well-known member
I was wondering when people would bring up weather an the govt shutting down places.

Valid argument, to a point, but a difference is those shutdowns are local to where there is the issue. They dont shut down 9hio when New York get a hurricane

Some counties in Ohio have diff snow levels where a level 3 states businesses are closed and you can cited for leaving your house.

Again, specific to local areas, typically only a day or two a year, and it truly is a Hazzard for most folks to go out. Hell, business would be so slow those days anwyas it would be worth opening.

So yes, govt does shut down areas from time to time but not with a wide brush like this.
And weather is tracked to anticipate the path and who will be affected. This virus, due to the lack of planning nationally, isn't being tracked. So since you have people that can travel anywhere they want any time they want throughout the entire country, if you aren't going to track the virus then the only other option is to stop people from moving around, or at least limit it as much as possible. And until you put together a plan to track the virus, releasing people back to being able to move around doesn't do anything but put you back where you started. The whole purpose of locking people down isn't to stop the virus, it's to pause it as much as possible to give you the opportunity to get the rest of your plans in action. And we really haven't done much of any of that. Yet people want to go back to normal, which continues to baffle me.

I feel like we were having fun playing a video game while dinner was cooking, paused the game because dinner was ready, yet instead sat there on the couch and browsed the internet on our phone, then unpaused our game and went back to playing. Completely ignoring the dinner still cooking in the kitchen, which was our whole reason for pausing the game in the first place.
 

The Dock

Well-known member
And weather is tracked to anticipate the path and who will be affected. This virus, due to the lack of planning nationally, isn't being tracked.
We are where we're at, with the "shutdown of the economy" and modern life in general, because of this. Full stop.

Everyone upset with the way everything has been in Ohio these last seven weeks has one person to take it up with, and that person is Donald Trump. In the absence of any preparation, advice, direction or guidance from POTUS (because he chose to screw around instead), it came down to the states to act: fast and drastic. The state of Ohio's actions saved more lives from dying of COVID-19 than what could have been. Donald Trump's inaction and carelessness led to coronavirus running amok, thus why Ohio society is upside down right now.
 

Yappi

Go Buckeyes
We are where we're at, with the "shutdown of the economy" and modern life in general, because of this. Full stop.

Everyone upset with the way everything has been in Ohio these last seven weeks has one person to take it up with, and that person is Donald Trump. In the absence of any preparation, advice, direction or guidance from POTUS (because he chose to screw around instead), it came down to the states to act: fast and drastic. The state of Ohio's actions saved more lives from dying of COVID-19 than what could have been. Donald Trump's inaction and carelessness led to coronavirus running amok, thus why Ohio society is upside down right now.
I think Ohio did an OK job but we are still one of the hardest hit states in the country. Currently 17th in death rate and climbing. Cuomo in New York is statistically the worst leader in the World based on the outbreak in his state. DeWine and Cuomo didn't screw up, rather, they had tough situations to deal with just like Trump. I know it is popular to blame leaders in this emergency but it is not entirely fair to any of the leaders to be graded with incomplete data.
 

BASESWIMPARENT

Well-known member
I think Ohio did an OK job but we are still one of the hardest hit states in the country. Currently 17th in death rate and climbing. Cuomo in New York is statistically the worst leader in the World based on the outbreak in his state. DeWine and Cuomo didn't screw up, rather, they had tough situations to deal with just like Trump. I know it is popular to blame leaders in this emergency but it is not entirely fair to any of the leaders to be graded with incomplete data.
and there was this ridiculous impeachment he had to deal with at that time too. I not a big fan but one has to do things when he has the evidence to do them in order to get cooperation. Everybody admits that the president acted every time it was recommended by the CDC and other public health officials asked him to. He got hammered for that too The Public Health Officials at the federal and state level were talking about this epidemic long before we heard about in the general public. Dr. Acton has admitted on several occasions that she thinks her office misdiagnosed the onset of the virus by at least a month, maybe two. Hence her comment about 100k Ohioans already having the virus when the Governor shut things down. She was probably correct. What everyone miscalculated is the deadliness percentage (initially she said 3% to 4%) and the targeted community that this virus does a number on. Everyone missed the opportunity to test, isolate and quarantine and the Genie got out of the bottle. What we really should be doing now is providing services and isolating the most vulnerable until the virus fizzles out or we come up with a vaccine (very, very unlikely). What we need is targeted solutions and not the general mitigation strategies.
 

The Dock

Well-known member
I think Ohio did an OK job but we are still one of the hardest hit states in the country. Currently 17th in death rate and climbing. Cuomo in New York is statistically the worst leader in the World based on the outbreak in his state. DeWine and Cuomo didn't screw up, rather, they had tough situations to deal with just like Trump. I know it is popular to blame leaders in this emergency but it is not entirely fair to any of the leaders to be graded with incomplete data.
I (respectfully) disagree.

The pandemic response team, under the auspice of the National Security Council, was the US' best collection of experts put together to formulate biodefense policy to protect from an unbridled contagion causing significant harm to American society. There is some debate as to whether it was "disbanded" (John Bolton says it was "streamlined"), but there are prominent arguments claiming that the disbanding/streamlining of the pandemic response team inhibited the US' ability to plan, prepare, study and suggest preventative measures aimed at minimizing the impact of the coronavirus stateside. See: USA Today, 3/18/20.

The "pandemic playbook", crafted at the tail end of the Obama presidency as a response and remediation of policy failures (lessons to be learned) from the Ebola virus outbreak of 2014, was reportedly never touched or utilized. This playbook calls out the need to procure PPE, even if it means invoking the Defense Protection Act early on to ramp up the supply. Instead, we saw... states engage in bidding wars for the scarce PPE in our country, and even the New England Patriots going to China and delivering 1 million N95 masks to the state of Massachusetts. Politico, 3/25/20.

Donald Trump was briefed by the intelligence community twice in January about the threat of the novel coronavirus. Bloomberg, 3/3/20. While the White House defends against the idea that nothing was done and replies "travel was banned from China", this is a specious argument because it is understood that the coronavirus outbreak in New York City originated from SARS-CoV-2 transmission by Europeans ABC News, 4/9/20 and research published in the last couple of days is indicating that the vast majority of COVID-19 spread is linked to carrier travel that originated stateside in New York City before NY went on lockdown. Donald Trump is probably not to blame for the fact it extended beyond New York City (that really isn't Cuomo's fault either, as New York is a World City) but the lack of guidance, established rules, lack of testing, lack of preparation in the month of February (leading into March) is inexcusable.

The most recent indictment that suggests that Donald Trump has to be held accountable for actions amidst these times is the report published yesterday that says he is not listening to what the CDC is saying on how the economy should be "re-opened" Chicago Tribune, 5/7/20. Like, I think everyone wants the economy to be re-opened. Of course. Donald, the best collection of public health minds in the United States is giving you their advice how to re-open the economy safely. Listen to them. It is a hard enough sell right now to get consumer confidence going in these times, and the Senate GOP is even saying this themselves MSN, 5/7/20.
 

The Dock

Well-known member
I (respectfully) disagree.
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The most recent indictment that suggests that Donald Trump has to be held accountable for actions amidst these times is the report published yesterday that says he is not listening to what the CDC is saying on how the economy should be "re-opened" Chicago Tribune, 5/7/20. Like, I think everyone wants the economy to be re-opened. Of course. Donald, the best collection of public health minds in the United States is giving you their advice how to re-open the economy safely. Listen to them. It is a hard enough sell right now to get consumer confidence going in these times, and the Senate GOP is even saying this themselves MSN, 5/7/20.
The whole point being that we understand, before our eyes, that there is demonstrable proof that our federal government was not prepared for the coronavirus. And it should have been. In the absence of a prepared, coordinated response at the national level to monitor the contagion and shape distancing policies to try and stem off / reduce transmissions of COVID-19, Mike DeWine and Andrew Cuomo were left with no choice but to look at their top public health officials & have them shape the policy for their own states based off imperfect sets of data (leading to modeling) on a virus little was known about in early March.

I'm not at all suggesting the models or policies enacted in Ohio were optimal or beyond criticism, but frankly their implementation and its effects on Ohio society is ultimately beyond DeWine and Acton: it goes straight to the fact our federal government was not prepared when it should have been and thus the states (looking out for the health of their citizens) were left but no choice to implement imperfect measures that the public health community believed to be the best course of action.
 

Philly_Cat

Well-known member
The whole point being that we understand, before our eyes, that there is demonstrable proof that our federal government was not prepared for the coronavirus. And it should have been. In the absence of a prepared, coordinated response at the national level to monitor the contagion and shape distancing policies to try and stem off / reduce transmissions of COVID-19, Mike DeWine and Andrew Cuomo were left with no choice but to look at their top public health officials & have them shape the policy for their own states based off imperfect sets of data (leading to modeling) on a virus little was known about in early March.

I'm not at all suggesting the models or policies enacted in Ohio were optimal or beyond criticism, but frankly their implementation and its effects on Ohio society is ultimately beyond DeWine and Acton: it goes straight to the fact our federal government was not prepared when it should have been and thus the states (looking out for the health of their citizens) were left but no choice to implement imperfect measures that the public health community believed to be the best course of action.
Werd
 
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