Changing our democracy

14Red

Well-known member
That’s an extraordinarily cold way of looking at the situation imo.
Yes, it is, and I'm sorry. I think we get really sensitive to things when there is video on TV and it's covered 24/7. Conversely, ALOT of people are brutally murdered in this country daily, probably some at this moment that never get a whiff of media coverage.
 

fish82

Well-known member
Not true. It would pass tomorrow if republicans wanted to. Democrats overwhelmingly do. And have pleaded with SCOTUS. If the court ever becomes liberal, that would be one of the 1st things addressed and there would be a uniform standard.

Again, the fact that you people had little/nothing to say on the topic during the 50+ years you were drawing the lines doesn't do much for your credibility here.

Hope this helps.
 

winbypin

Well-known member
Republicans have a strong advantage in state legislatures, and are pro-gerrymander. Dems would end it tomorrow if possible, or support SCOTUS to, as they've requested. Pubs will not. And OF COURSE dems will not and should not unilaterally end them where it is advantageous, if their opponent will not. That would be stupid.
Except the Dems that also gerrymander you mean?
 

MoeDude

LIVE FREE OR DIE!
....

The only real, legit threat IMO is what transpired on Jan. 6 is what we now know about it from these hearings. Which republicans either refuse to believe, or, actually support.

9. Political coup / overturning lawful elections
You really have been brainwashed and lack the ability to view the January 6th incident with an open and clear mind. There are plenty of films available that are not being shown during these hearings that show the Capitol Police were complicit in the events that occurred that day. Yes it was wrong to breech the Capitol Building but it was not the organized insurrection you and your brainwashers are trying to make it. Funny how you ignore how BLM and ANTIFA were attempting to burn government buildings back in 2020 but are so willing to go along with this farce hearing on January 6th.

What's even more pathetic is that you have so much hate toward Trump you're willing to ignore how corrupt the Hypocrite Party has become. Trump is not perfect by any means but he exposed the corruption in Washington DC and you are a devoted sheeple following the real crooks, Pelosi, Waters, Schumer etc.
 
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Mean Machine

Well-known member
Actually it's set up pretty good now because no one has too much power. The President can't do much without congress, and congress can do major things without the president on board. It's not perfect, but it's why most of us level headed common folk just can live our lives.
And yet your precious Supreme Court can impose their personal and religious beliefs on everyone. Another example of PEOPLE SUCK!!
 

TigerPaw

Well-known member
You really have been brainwashed and lack the ability to view the January 6th incident with an open and clear mind. There are plenty of films available that are not being shown during these hearings that show the Capitol Police were complicit in the events that occurred that day. Yes it was wrong to breech the Capitol Building but it was not the organized insurrection you and your brainwashers are trying to make it. Funny how you ignore how BLM and ANTIFA were attempting to burn government buildings back in 202 but are so willing to go along with this farce hearing on January 6th.

What's even more pathetic is that you have so much hate toward Trump you're willing to ignore how corrupt the Hypocrite Party has become. Trump is not perfect by any means but he exposed the corruption in Washington DC and you are a devoted sheeple following the real crooks, Pelosi, Waters, Schumer etc.

The testimony thus far has been from republicans. Including comments from House leader and senate leader. But but but Pelosi huh? Sheep.

The riot was bad enough but that’s a sideshow. The attempt to overturn was by government officials led by POTUS. On lies, and bogus unconstitutional legal maneuvers.
 

TigerPaw

Well-known member
Again, the fact that you people had little/nothing to say on the topic during the 50+ years you were drawing the lines doesn't do much for your credibility here.

Hope this helps.

So basically the party in power likes it and the one who isn’t doesn’t. Duh. As of today pubs will filibuster any attempt for a federal non biased district commission mandate. Though some states have enacted on their own cuz it’s the right thing and people favor it. I agree it will never happen as long as Senate pubs have filibuster control. But it would if Dems had filibuster proof control. Hopefully there will be a day it can pass with simple majority.
 

Yappi

Go Buckeyes
Democrats were talking about impeachment long before Trump took office. Magically, they found enough "evidence" to start the impeachment process.

That was the real attempted overthrow of a legally elected President. January 6th never happens without all the shenanigans by the left and their partners in the media from the previous four years.

Trump was unorthodox and inappropriate. He was one man. Those trying to overthrow him for four years are/were the real national threat and they are in charge now.

Corner a wild cat, don't be surprised when they attack.
 

fish82

Well-known member
So basically the party in power likes it and the one who isn’t doesn’t. Duh.

No, basically the party out of power went out and actually put in the work to win big at the local level (despite the gerrymandering) and earn the right to draw the lines instead of just sitting and crying about it 24/7 like you do. 🤷‍♂️

As of today pubs will filibuster any attempt for a federal non biased district commission mandate. Though some states have enacted on their own cuz it’s the right thing and people favor it. I agree it will never happen as long as Senate pubs have filibuster control. But it would if Dems had filibuster proof control. Hopefully there will be a day it can pass with simple majority.

See above. Focus your energy on actually winning back those seats at the state level instead of crying about it.

As always, hope this helps.
 

TigerPaw

Well-known member
No, basically the party out of power went out and actually put in the work to win big at the local level (despite the gerrymandering) and earn the right to draw the lines instead of just sitting and crying about it 24/7 like you do. 🤷‍♂️



See above. Focus your energy on actually winning back those seats at the state level instead of crying about it.

As always, hope this helps.

Fair enough. You basically favor the practice and it's increased use with technology, to the highest extent possible by either party. I disagree but at least you're honest.
 

fish82

Well-known member
Fair enough. You basically favor the practice and it's increased use with technology, to the highest extent possible by either party. I disagree but at least you're honest.

I don't favor it our unfavor it. 🤷‍♂️ I merely think it's amusing that you'd rather cry about it than actually fix the problem that directly resulted in your present position. I mean, it's definitely on brand...but still pretty funny.
 

TigerPaw

Well-known member
Democrats were talking about impeachment long before Trump took office. Magically, they found enough "evidence" to start the impeachment process.

That was the real attempted overthrow of a legally elected President. January 6th never happens without all the shenanigans by the left and their partners in the media from the previous four years.

Trump was unorthodox and inappropriate. He was one man. Those trying to overthrow him for four years are/were the real national threat and they are in charge now.

Corner a wild cat, don't be surprised when they attack.

Wow that's sad. Too much Fox I guess.

Pubs NEVER discuss impeachment or investigated dems and evidence against pubs is always "magic." I wish I had a nickel for every magical conspiracy from birtherism to body counts, benhazi to clinton foundation. Pubs plotted to remove Obama before he even knew where the restroom was now pubs are ❄️ all of a sudden. I assume you've watched 0.0% of the hearings.

Trump whined about "rigged elections" before the 1st election he won, and well before and after the 2nd election he lost. It's what he does, and 1000% predictable. Nothing to do with "cornering a wild cat" he is a mental patient. Smfh.

Now we know who he was talking to when he said he could shoot someone. You, and debate forum republicans.
 
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TigerPaw

Well-known member
I don't favor it our unfavor it. 🤷‍♂️ I merely think it's amusing that you'd rather cry about it than actually fix the problem that directly resulted in your present position. I mean, it's definitely on brand...but still pretty funny.

I don't agree with that or disagree with that. Brilliant.
 

Yappi

Go Buckeyes
Wow that's sad. Too much Fox I guess.

Pubs NEVER discuss impeachment or investigated anyone before Trump, and evidence against pubs is "magic." Ok. I assume you've watched 0.0% of the hearings.

Trump whined about "rigged elections" before the 1st election he won, and well before and after the 2nd election he lost. It's what he does. Nothing to do with "cornering a wild cat" he is a mental patient. Smfh.

Now we know who he was talking to when he said he could shoot someone. You, and debate forum republicans.
I'm not a big fan of Trump. Never was. I do like his ideas and policies as President. I wish we could have a better version of Trump with his ideas. Maybe DeSantis could be that guy.

What I get tired of is the constant drum beat of one side being bad and the other good. I see both extremes being wrong. There are plenty of centrist Democrats that have forgiven or supported all the shenanigans that occurred over the past 6 years. When I talk of cornering a wild cat, that is how I see some Republicans that support Trump. They have been attacked for years. I'm still in shock when I see well-educated individuals who can condemn 1/6 but ignore/excuse the 2020 Summer of riots. That is what I can never accept. The 2020 riots were as big a stain (or more) on our shared history as the 1/6 riot. Neither were justified and acceptable. Sadly, many 2020 rioters were given a free pass while extraordinary means were used to track down anyone involved in 1/6.
 

TigerPaw

Well-known member
2020 were not our first riots Yappi. Far from it. Throughout history. Entire populations have been massacred before. The 2020 riots involved a public execution in broad daylight not some made up conspiracy. (Personally I think Chauvin skates without the protests, as many have before him). It is also notable that many right wing extremists who were there only to agitate and push the violence were involved and arrested also. Not at all comparable to overturning an election by the actual POTUS lying about it to enrage followers. That would have ended our form of government.

Other than the pretext (an actual event vs. Big Lie) the riots themselves could be viewed similarly. Ie. peaceful protests that got out of hand. But the coup plotting happening behind the scenes, with fraudulent electors and fraudulent legal maneuvers goes WAY beyond that, and is more alarming. It is about making sure that that can not happen. Meanwhile republicans are putting people into place that would have allowed it. The threat is FAR from over.
 

Mean Machine

Well-known member
I'm not a big fan of Trump. Never was. I do like his ideas and policies as President. I wish we could have a better version of Trump with his ideas. Maybe DeSantis could be that guy.

What I get tired of is the constant drum beat of one side being bad and the other good. I see both extremes being wrong. There are plenty of centrist Democrats that have forgiven or supported all the shenanigans that occurred over the past 6 years. When I talk of cornering a wild cat, that is how I see some Republicans that support Trump. They have been attacked for years. I'm still in shock when I see well-educated individuals who can condemn 1/6 but ignore/excuse the 2020 Summer of riots. That is what I can never accept. The 2020 riots were as big a stain (or more) on our shared history as the 1/6 riot. Neither were justified and acceptable. Sadly, many 2020 rioters were given a free pass while extraordinary means were used to track down anyone involved in 1/6.
Scenario 1- Black man executed in the streets by a white cop after he was already in custody.
Scenario 2- Deranged, white, rich @$$hole cannot accept the results of an election so he convinces his uneducated, redneck supporters to riot at the Capitol in a failed effort to delay the certification of a free and fair election.

When will you ignorant fools realize that scenario 1 is a much more justified reason for rioting? I know why, because reason #1 involved a black guy getting killed and you support that but scenario 2 makes you mad because it indicts your Lord snd Savior, fatty Orange Boy, which you don't like.
 

IVCguy

Well-known member
We have something here that has "worked", perhaps "survived" is a better word, for 246 years. It's ugly, it's messy, the way the sausage gets made is bloody, and sometimes it is ineffective at addressing issues quickly, but it does seem to get there eventually. It is the worst form of government on the earth - except for all the rest. We need to be careful about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

The hyper-partisanship is nothing new. I am often amazed at reading what some congressman said in the 1850's or 60's about their political opponents - things no one would say today. I look at our two-party system and see the good in it - the moderating influence it has. Law is hard to make because our founders specifically wanted to avoid tyranny of the majority, thus we got checks and balances, a constitution that law has to fit into, a legislative chamber based on population that is prone to passions and political turbulence, and one that is based on 2 representatives per state that has a more calm and deliberate tone (usually) and generally must bring some from the other side to advance a law.

Parties don't necessarily seek the good of the country, but rather what benefits them, but because of the constitutional structure of government, those kinds of things get attenuated. The "gridlock" is a good thing imo. Each new law necessarily takes a bit of freedom away from someone. So, the less congress does, the better in most cases. When something has to be done, the parties seem to find a way to work it out eventually.

Acknowledging my bias and how the following reflects that bias, I think the change we have seen in the last decade or so is a shift toward conservatism and away from establishment Republicanism in the one party and a significant lurch to the left in the other party. Both have been reactionary toward the other. My bias aside, I think conservatism is a reasonable, not a radical, place for an American party to politic and govern from. I do not think the cultural Marxism, anarchy, and economic socialism of the left is reasonable, but rather radical - and it is what is driving most of our current dysfunction. Trump accelerated the reactionary radicalism of the Dems because of the visceral hatred they had for him and he fed that by constantly poking them in the eye.

Politics has a wonderful way of forcing correction on parties. When you get your brains beat in with an election, it normally causes a party to reevaluate their policy positions and messaging. The Dems should have done that in 2016, but they went the "Russia, Russia, Russia" route and those chickens are going to come home to roost this fall. Until they have their come to Jesus moment, the Dems will not recalibrate and reconfigure, and will continue to bleed voters. Wise heads on that side of the aisle need to reign in the more radical elements of their tent and certainly stop following their policy ideas - that include ideas that seek to change the rules of the game to help them win. Center-left ideas have won before and will win again. Get back to that, run solid, common sense candidates that are good communicators, and they will win in a lot of places. But continuing the drift toward being the Amercian hammer and sickle party will make them a minority for decades.
 

SayMyName

Well-known member
Scenario 1- Black man executed in the streets by a white cop after he was already in custody.
Scenario 2- Deranged, white, rich @$$hole cannot accept the results of an election so he convinces his uneducated, redneck supporters to riot at the Capitol in a failed effort to delay the certification of a free and fair election.

When will you ignorant fools realize that scenario 1 is a much more justified reason for rioting? I know why, because reason #1 involved a black guy getting killed and you support that but scenario 2 makes you mad because it indicts your Lord snd Savior, fatty Orange Boy, which you don't like.
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But I'm on vacation- MM
 
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