Brown v McKinney near fall controversy

I actually agree with you, it was poor officiating. I never argued one time that it was no points for McKinney. However, I am dead set on the fact that it was 2+2 for McKinney, and then a reversal for Brown, making it 5-5. I also think that if it were officiated properly, when Brown reverses him, hes got a very very good chance at getting his own NF, with that turk or a cradle that he loves to put on. I feel like Brown got screwed even more in this situation, because I think he was more than likely going to win that match anyway with the proper scoring, and now he has people on forums and facebook saying he isn't the real champ. He is the champ, and he deserved to win, and I for one, feel bad for Brown.


I feel bad for both of them. Not good either way. Bottomed line is refs took away from the match by not doing a good job in a state finals match. Ref should have loudly announced who was in control and loudly verballed a count.
 
That’s fine, but I don’t buy this talk that McKinney was robbed of a state title. You can make the argument that Brown was robbed of the opportunity to have a controversy-free state title, because I think he’s winning that match regardless. He was the better wrestler that night. I also don’t understand how you can watch that sequence, and not come away with 2+2 for McKinney, then the reversal for Brown. It’s plain as the grass is green and the sky is blue.
I'm not arguing that, but I'm an certified official. And the referee -albeit does not have to swipe - should have at least said something so BOTH wrestlers could improve their positions. What he did was (1) not say anything (2) didn't tell St. Eds coach to chill out when he said something to him so presumbaly showed bias, and (3) was out of position because you could clearly see Brown fighting off his back and letting go of McKinney's leg.
 
I'm not arguing that, but I'm an certified official. And the referee -albeit does not have to swipe - should have at least said something so BOTH wrestlers could improve their positions. What he did was (1) not say anything (2) didn't tell St. Eds coach to chill out when he said something to him so presumbaly showed bias, and (3) was out of position because you could clearly see Brown fighting off his back and letting go of McKinney's leg.
Does not have to swipe-- agree! But in that situation in a state finals match ,a quality ref is going to be very loud .
Notice the lack of input from refs that are so quick to defend refs.
It's easy to say oh if you know so much go become one-- it's hard to be vocal and go against your gang. It's professional to do it both ways
 
Does not have to swipe-- agree! But in that situation in a state finals match ,a quality ref is going to be very loud .
Notice the lack of input from refs that are so quick to defend refs.
It's easy to say oh if you know so much go become one-- it's hard to be vocal and go against your gang. It's professional to do it both ways
100%!
 
Brown clearly reverses him after the fact anyway, so at best case scenario for McKinney, it was 5-5 with Brown back on top. No way to give McKinney full 5 count even if he got the reversal and swipes. So 2+2 then gets reversed back again plain as day. If it wasn’t for the fact that Brown completely out wrestled McKinney for the entire match up to that, I’d have more sympathy, but if you want to concede McKinney hit a jonesy and got 2+2, fine. Still got reversed back and 5-5 is your score.
But if McKinney is award a reversal and backs, when flipped back over does he wrestle it differently to get stalemate over just given letting him back on top and trying to go back to getting off bottom. This ref has been calling bad matches for years. I’m not sure how he even gets picked to be a ref in state finals.
 
But if McKinney is award a reversal and backs, when flipped back over does he wrestle it differently to get stalemate over just given letting him back on top and trying to go back to getting off bottom. This ref has been calling bad matches for years. I’m not sure how he even gets picked to be a ref in state finals.
…..and if the Ref communicates to McKinney that he’s in NF criteria, he likely gets off his back and wrestles differently. Maybe they stalemate and restart, maybe they scramble, maybe he gets out. Brown wrestles differently too depending on the outcome of that flurry, 3-1, 3-3, 5-5, or 6-1.

Poor mechanics, poor communication to the wrestlers, to each other and I think #2 Ref was clearly influenced by the coach, and the Head Ref could/should have controlled that. If he didn’t see NF on red, how can he agree and adopt the Ref’s opinion? I also think that McKinney had established control and Reversal , but I can also see how a Ref might hold that call and let the scramble play out.

Good catch on Brown looking down at his anklet and smiling. He knew.
 
Alright so as an official, there is a lot to look at here. Technically a Jonesy Tilt (the move hit by the Elyria kid here) isn't clarified in the rules book and doesn't always meet the requirements of control (depends on where the leg is trapped, how much the attacker AND defender are moving in that position, etc). It is also almost always hit from the neutral position and we are told to hold that control because so much can change in an instant. This is the first time I have every seen it hit from the advantage position and I would be willing to bet the officials who had the match would say the same. There are endless situations that can happen in a wrestling match, and unfortunately they are not all covered in the book. It just sucks that a new situation happens to pop up in the 3rd period of a state finals match.
This has been the topic of conversation among officials all across the state since Sunday night, and there is discrepancy on how we all would have called this situation. Some believe a reversal and nearfall are warranted, others believe we have no change in control and no points scored. We sit behind our computers and watch it over and over again and then give our opinions, but these two were forced to make a decision on a likely new situation on the fly in front of thousands of people. All we can do now is wait for confirmation from the state on how they want us to call this and will then do our best to make sure we call it that way the next time it happens.
 
the decision on how to handle it was made by the head ref.
the decision to change it was made by the asst ref.
the head ref wasnt looking for clarification- the asst ref interjected his
when does a peterson become backs?
anyone with an open mind will clearly see that the eds kid was trying to get off his back and it took him time to do so
in a peterson, even with an asst ref are swipes used for a count?
when was the count done in this match?

for the asst ref to say that there was a 5 count and only one five count is just crap
 
Alright so as an official, there is a lot to look at here. Technically a Jonesy Tilt (the move hit by the Elyria kid here) isn't clarified in the rules book and doesn't always meet the requirements of control (depends on where the leg is trapped, how much the attacker AND defender are moving in that position, etc). It is also almost always hit from the neutral position and we are told to hold that control because so much can change in an instant. This is the first time I have every seen it hit from the advantage position and I would be willing to bet the officials who had the match would say the same. There are endless situations that can happen in a wrestling match, and unfortunately they are not all covered in the book. It just sucks that a new situation happens to pop up in the 3rd period of a state finals match.
This has been the topic of conversation among officials all across the state since Sunday night, and there is discrepancy on how we all would have called this situation. Some believe a reversal and nearfall are warranted, others believe we have no change in control and no points scored. We sit behind our computers and watch it over and over again and then give our opinions, but these two were forced to make a decision on a likely new situation on the fly in front of thousands of people. All we can do now is wait for confirmation from the state on how they want us to call this and will then do our best to make sure we call it that way the next time it happens.
Appreciate the fair and balanced response. #Repsect.
 
the decision on how to handle it was made by the head ref.
the decision to change it was made by the asst ref.
the head ref wasnt looking for clarification- the asst ref interjected his
when does a peterson become backs?
anyone with an open mind will clearly see that the eds kid was trying to get off his back and it took him time to do so
in a peterson, even with an asst ref are swipes used for a count?
when was the count done in this match?

for the asst ref to say that there was a 5 count and only one five count is just crap
This is what I dont understand. The asst ref made the call without being asked by the official or even a coach approaching the table. I understand the count is a courtesy.. but I didn't know the asst could be the count in lieu of the head official obviously not counting silently, but not counting at all... I just don't understand it I guess.
 
This is what I dont understand. The asst ref made the call without being asked by the official or even a coach approaching the table. I understand the count is a courtesy.. but I didn't know the asst could be the count in lieu of the head official obviously not counting silently, but not counting at all... I just don't understand it I guess.
The Ed’s coach made the call. The assistant ref just relayed the message to the head ref. You can debate the move (“rule”), who was tilted, who got backs or reversal forever, the biggest issue is the ref getting his facts from a coach and not his own 2 eyes then changing a probably “ok” situation into what was probably the worst case scenario/result
 
I have known the assistant referee for many years and he is probably one of the better referees in the state. He did exactly what he is supposed to do as the assistant. In my opinion it was the correct call if the lead official is not calling the reversal and showing control to Green the entire time before the stalemate.
 
I have known the assistant referee for many years and he is probably one of the better referees in the state. He did exactly what he is supposed to do as the assistant. In my opinion it was the correct call if the lead official is not calling the reversal and showing control to Green the entire time before the stalemate.
Wow
Just wow
Sooo,
When did the asst ref begin his count? When does the asst ref assume the job of counting near fall points?
 
I have known the assistant referee for many years and he is probably one of the better referees in the state. He did exactly what he is supposed to do as the assistant. In my opinion it was the correct call if the lead official is not calling the reversal and showing control to Green the entire time before the stalemate.
Watch the video and tell me what he (the assistant ref) is doing during the sequence in question. He watched and listened to Ed’s coaches more than tilt or turn. Might be best smartest and greatest ref ever. However for the 5-7 seconds in question he was not concentrating or watching the wrestling The video shows what he did. He got caught up with Ed’s coaching and lost track of match/sequence. If you have followed this you know I have repeated this each time. Also I could care less who won or lost this match as I don’t know either kid or coaches. Just pointing out that a coach actually made the call the assistant ref reported to head ref. When the tilt occurs just follow the assistant ref on video. Hopefully they use it in future ref clinics on not what to do as an assistant in that situation
 
I appreciate you coming on as an official speaking about this.

The jonesy tilt has been used since 2009 so this move isn’t new and kids have been hitting in all positions since then. I have coached kids from grade school to high school and I have seen this move hit in this same position by kids of all ages for years now. It’s just hard for me to believe refs that been around +15 years have not seen this move in this position somewhere.
 
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