Boardman

gatornation

Active member
I see Boardman has been in the news the last 2 days with flooding. Anyone been near the school or course to see how it is handling all the rain? I know the invite is still just under 2 weeks away but would hate to see a repeat of 2008 when the course was ruined so much that Regional was moved to Glen Oak.
 

SteelValley

Well-known member
The high school campus area doesn’t generally experience the flooding issues you see reported on the news. Those issues tend to be mainly closer to Route 224 near Boardman Plaza and some neighborhoods north of 224 where the neighborhoods/infrastructure are older. That’s not to say if it rains areas of the HS campus/course wouldn’t be quite damp. But with weather looking good the rest of this week it should dry just fine by the weekend and barring another down pour it should be fine by Invitational.
 

pinem46

New member
Looking forward to Boardman. Five of the top ten DII Girls teams in the Coaches Poll will be there, Minerva, Kenston, Salem, Bay, Woodridge plus Akron SVSM and Hathaway Brown. Interested to see Kenston and Bay coming up from division one. Hope for a fair course.
 

gatornation

Active member
Looking at the information for Boardman this weekend. I see they eliminated the open race in D2 and now there are 45 teams on the line with unlimited entries. What was the thought process behind that?
 

madman

Well-known member
Looking at the information for Boardman this weekend. I see they eliminated the open race in D2 and now there are 45 teams on the line with unlimited entries. What was the thought process behind that?
I don't know the thought process actually used, but last year there were 310 runners in the D2 varsity race and only 115 in the Open race where nearly every runner was over 20 minutes. I would think the runner density (runner/sec) at any point other than the start won't be any worse than the DI varsity race which had 45 teams last year and looks to have a few more than that this year.

115 runners is a very small field.

Furthermore, many schools have homecoming dances this weekend. With DII being the final races of the day, this allows them to get home ~an hour earlier.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
2/3rds of the D2 girl's teams are listed as having only 9 or less runners
Only 27/52 of the girls D3 schools have more than 5 runners entered, and we'll see how many of them actually have 5 or more finish. I'd somewhat jokingly said for a few years that you can beat half the teams in D3 if you have 5 finishers. It's no joke anymore.
 

madman

Well-known member
322 girls was manageable but boys need an open race.
I think the density of runners is more important than the total number of runners. The two kids running at 16:00 and at 25:00 aren't really affecting one another.

Here's a picture of the boys DI varsity race and the DII combined Varsity/JV/Open race in 20 sec bins:

1663464686976.png
The greatest density of runners in the DII race occurred from 21:40 to 22:00 at 31 runners in that 20 sec block. The DI race sustained that density and more from 18:00 - 19:20.

From a coaching standpoint, having 20+ kids in one race is certainly less than ideal. From the runners' standpoints, the DII combined race was less congested than the DI varsity race.
 

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madman

Well-known member
If you are interested in what the distribution of DI times from all three races looks like...

1663465763722.png
The green dotted line is at 31 runners/20 sec interval, the peak rate of the DII combined rate.
 

jakeburg

Member
I think the density of runners is more important than the total number of runners. The two kids running at 16:00 and at 25:00 aren't really affecting one another.

Here's a picture of the boys DI varsity race and the DII combined Varsity/JV/Open race in 20 sec bins:

View attachment 33884
The greatest density of runners in the DII race occurred from 21:40 to 22:00 at 31 runners in that 20 sec block. The DI race sustained that density and more from 18:00 - 19:20.

From a coaching standpoint, having 20+ kids in one race is certainly less than ideal. From the runners' standpoints, the DII combined race was less congested than the DI varsity race.
That density comparison is fantastic, and exactly what I was wondering about today. We got bumped to D2 this year, and it's fascinating what that front-loaded density from 18:30-16:00 looks like. Tried to coach it. Failed.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
That density comparison is fantastic, and exactly what I was wondering about today. We got bumped to D2 this year, and it's fascinating what that front-loaded density from 18:30-16:00 looks like. Tried to coach it. Failed.
The charts are a nice graphical representation of why a lot of DI races go out so hard. If one doesn't get out well at the beginning, that's a lot of bodies to fight through later in the race. That's much less frequent in DII and rarer yet in DIII. FWIW, I think it's helpful to the DI runners who are thinking about competing in college while it's something that many of the DII and DIII HS runners might still need to learn when they compete in college. Collegiate XC races tend to go out pretty hard, too. On the flip side, championship level collegiate courses are built to specifications that make it possible to pass anywhere on the course (must be 10m wide the entire way, have a starting funnel that can accommodate at least 600 runners, and no significant turn in the 1st kilometer).

How were conditions for the DII and DIII races at Boardman on Sat? From times for the runners with whom I'm most familiar, my initial guess is that the heat was a factor for many runners. That course is challenging enough in cooler conditions if you overdo it on the 1st loop.


Incidentally, I was told that VASJ's McDonough Invitational was cancelled today due to a maintenance issue at the meet site. I'm told the park where the meet is held (Forest Hills, IIRC) is jointly maintained by Cleveland and East Cleveland. The maintenance in the Cleveland portion of the park allegedly did not happen, so that portion of the course was impassable, and the meet had to be cancelled. I know 1 team affected by the cancellation was able to run elsewhere on Sat. morning. Did anyone else hear about this?
 
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Run38

New member
The charts are a nice graphical representation of why a lot of DI races go out so hard. If one doesn't get out well at the beginning, that's a lot of bodies to fight through later in the race. That's much less frequent in DII and rarer yet in DIII. FWIW, I think it's helpful to the DI runners who are thinking about competing in college while it's something that many of the DII and DIII HS runners might still need to learn when they compete in college. Collegiate XC races tend to go out pretty hard, too. On the flip side, championship level collegiate courses are built to specifications that make it possible to pass anywhere on the course (must be 10m wide the entire way, have a starting funnel that can accommodate at least 600 runners, and no significant turn in the 1st kilometer).

How were conditions for the DII and DIII races at Boardman on Sat? From times for the runners with whom I'm most familiar, my initial guess is that the heat was a factor for many runners. That course is challenging enough in cooler conditions if you overdo it on the 1st loop.


Incidentally, I was told that VASJ's McDonough Invitational was cancelled today due to a maintenance issue at the meet site. I'm told the park where the meet is held (Forest Hills, IIRC) is jointly maintained by Cleveland and East Cleveland. The maintenance in the Cleveland portion of the park allegedly did not happen, so that portion of the course was impassable, and the meet had to be cancelled. I know 1 team affected by the cancellation was able to run elsewhere on Sat. morning. Did anyone else hear about this?
for D1 boys it was about 60 degrees and D2 boys it was 80.
 
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