Ask The Ref?

AllSports12

Moderator
That is what we all thought........

Did you see the play in question from the KC/Clev game? Did the official take it too literal?

Rules expert didn't know it but researched and said it looks like that was the right call.

"But the rulebook also says that a quarterback may only spike the ball “to stop a running game clock.”
Hadn't seen or heard the play in question... I'll poke around and see what I can find out. Know a few NFL guys who I can talk to.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Hadn't seen or heard the play in question... I'll poke around and see what I can find out. Know a few NFL guys who I can talk to.
Long story short. Clock was stopped and the QB spiked it (basically they had just 1 TO left, 9 seconds on the clock and he wanted more time to discuss a play and save the TO)

Called I.G. because the clock was not running at the time of the snap.
Rule expert didn't know it was a rule but came back after the break and stated that it was the correct call.


In reading some online there isn't a warm and fuzzy that the call was 100% correct so I anxiously await your response.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
NFL has a rule that specifically prohibits a teams from illegally consuming time. (prevents a team from not getting a chance to return a kickoff after a score)

Here's the Case Book play that applies to the game. (note that this does not apply to HS rules)

INTENTIONAL GROUNDING - SPIKE TO CONSUME TIME

First-and-10 on B30. The game clock is stopped with six seconds left in the first half. QBA1 takes the snap and immediately spikes the ball into the ground to take one second off the clock so that a field-goal attempt will run out the clock.

Ruling: Half over. Intentional grounding and a 10-second runoff. A QB can only spike the ball to stop a running game clock. An attempt to take time off the clock is intentional grounding.

The crew was spot on correct with this call.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Fantastic.

and now we know!

Wonder how long that ref was hanging on to call that one over the years!
Actually, they are ready for that every week.... It just doesn't happen until someone screws up like what happened here. While the act probably wasn't intentional, the brain fart was illegal.

Situational officiating.
 

TigerTown15

New member
What happens to a team when the entire bench, coaches included, rushes the field after a small shoving match? No flags tossed until the bench cleared. Happened tonight in the Massillon- Whitehall game
 

AllSports12

Moderator
What happens to a team when the entire bench, coaches included, rushes the field after a small shoving match? No flags tossed until the bench cleared. Happened tonight in the Massillon- Whitehall game
I'm going to explain this based on the rule only and not what did or did not happen in the game you refer to........ (that part is not up for debate)

If a non player enters the field during a fight, by rule a 15 yard penalty is assessed on each infraction and that/those individual(s) are disqualified The Head Coach is exempt from this prohibition. (unless he is out there making matters worse)

If a non player leaves the team box for any reason other than to become a player or to return as a replaced player, a foul has occurred.
- For the 1st Offense, a sideline warning is issued
- For the Second Offense, a 5 yard penalty is assessed
- For the 3rd and subsequent offenses, a 15 yard penalty is assessed.

We're not going to guess/second guess what the officials did and why as there are too many unknowns on a Saturday morning.
 

joshjellel

New member
Someone posed this situation to me yesterday: high school ruling (obviously) for sideline interference from opposite team on a breakaway run preventing what would have resulted in a touchdown. Officials can/do rule this a touchdown?

Seems to me a touchdown can never be guaranteed, even given such circumstances (trips, slips, drops, premature celebration), and my gut tells me the offense would get the ball at the spot of the foul plus 15 yards/half the distance, maybe even at the 1 yard line.

Also, if this IS so, is this the only time an official can rule a touchdown for a player/ball not breaking the plane?
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Someone posed this situation to me yesterday: high school ruling (obviously) for sideline interference from opposite team on a breakaway run preventing what would have resulted in a touchdown. Officials can/do rule this a touchdown?

Seems to me a touchdown can never be guaranteed, even given such circumstances (trips, slips, drops, premature celebration), and my gut tells me the offense would get the ball at the spot of the foul plus 15 yards/half the distance, maybe even at the 1 yard line.
Happened last month in Minnesota

https://local12.com/news/offbeat/minnesota-high-school-football-player-apologizes-for-leaving-sideline-to-make-tackle

This situation is covered under NFHS Rule 9-9 - Unfair Acts

Art. 1 - A player or nonplayer or person(s) not subject to the rules shall not hinder play by an unfair act which has no specific rule coverage.

Penalty - the referee enforces any penalty he/she considers equitable, including the award of a score;

The Referee, after conferring with his crew, will have the final say in this decision. The crew will use their judgment in making this decision and communicate this to their boss.....

Just as they do so on every other play they observe throughout the game.

Also, if this IS so, is this the only time an official can rule a touchdown for a player/ball not breaking the plane?
I can think of no other situation where a touchdown will be awarded without the ball breaking the plane.
 

joshjellel

New member
So a score can be awarded as a penalty by judgement in such a no-rule situation. Interesting. Definitely not something you see everyday... unless Mike Tomlin is on the field.

Thanks AllSports!
 

Zunardo

Active member
Someone posed this situation to me yesterday: high school ruling (obviously) for sideline interference from opposite team on a breakaway run preventing what would have resulted in a touchdown. Officials can/do rule this a touchdown?
I immediately thought of the 1954 Cotton Bowl, where an Alabama player came off the bench and tackled a Rice player in the middle of a breakaway run. Officials awarded Rice the touchdown.
 

TigerTown15

New member
I'm going to explain this based on the rule only and not what did or did not happen in the game you refer to........ (that part is not up for debate)

If a non player enters the field during a fight, by rule a 15 yard penalty is assessed on each infraction and that/those individual(s) are disqualified The Head Coach is exempt from this prohibition. (unless he is out there making matters worse)

If a non player leaves the team box for any reason other than to become a player or to return as a replaced player, a foul has occurred.
- For the 1st Offense, a sideline warning is issued
- For the Second Offense, a 5 yard penalty is assessed
- For the 3rd and subsequent offenses, a 15 yard penalty is assessed.

We're not going to guess/second guess what the officials did and why as there are too many unknowns on a Saturday morning.
Thank you. Appreciate the information
 

Omar

Well-known member
Can you push the OHSAA to fix the PI rule inside the 10? It’s rather ridiculous that it’s not an automatic 1st down and almost encourages DBs to grab and hold.
 
Can you push the OHSAA to fix the PI rule inside the 10? It’s rather ridiculous that it’s not an automatic 1st down and almost encourages DBs to grab and hold.
The OHSAA doesn’t write the rules.

They have some say on the national stage, but so do most of the other states.
 

Omar

Well-known member
The OHSAA doesn’t write the rules.

They have some say on the national stage, but so do most of the other states.
Interesting. I cannot understand the logic in not amending the rule, you're giving DBs a free pass to maul WRs when they're beat. The Offense misses out on almost a sure TD and it really does not help them to go from 3rd & Goal at the 5 to 3rd & Goal at the 2.5
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Interesting. I cannot understand the logic in not amending the rule, you're giving DBs a free pass to maul WRs when they're beat. The Offense misses out on almost a sure TD and it really does not help them to go from 3rd & Goal at the 5 to 3rd & Goal at the 2.5
The rule change was made 5 years ago and this was the "sky is falling prediction" with this change.....

The sky didn't fall and the occurrences of the DB's taking advantage of the change haven't happened to the point nationally that it has earned support to change it.

In other words, nobody has a problem with it until it happens to them...... which isn't often.
 

serpico

Active member
The rule change was made 5 years ago and this was the "sky is falling prediction" with this change.....

The sky didn't fall and the occurrences of the DB's taking advantage of the change haven't happened to the point nationally that it has earned support to change it.

In other words, nobody has a problem with it until it happens to them...... which isn't often.
What was the reason for the change in the first place? I don’t have a dog in this fight, I’m just curious.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
What was the reason for the change in the first place? I don’t have a dog in this fight, I’m just curious.
The basis for rules are twofold.... Safety of the participants and maintaining a competitive balance between the offense and the defense.

When the committee finally acted on the recommendations to eliminate the loss of down provision for Offensive Pass Interference, they could not get over the fact that the penalty for this foul against the Offense was now just 15yds while the penalty against the Defense for the same foul was yardage (typically 15) and an automatic first down. (not an equitable trade off)

Much discussion was had, including the apparent advantage the defense now would gain by fouling when in a goal-to-go situation. While the committee was nowhere unanimous in their vote to eliminate the loss of the automatic first down, they could not garner enough support to have a majority keep the provision as well...... They felt the perceived advantage was just that, a perception.....

Further discussion was had about making an exception to this rule and enforcing an automatic first down for fouls committed during goal-to-go situations. Exceptions to rules are few and far between occurrences under the NFHS Rule set. Misapplications of rules are more likely to occur with exceptions involved than not, hence the Rules Committees in all NFHS Sports are discouraged to write them into the books.

Five years later, the rule remains as written and there hasn't been a flood of situations that scream for a change or an exception. Whether or not that changes can only be determined with a crystal ball.

Hope that helps.
 

Zunardo

Active member
Great explanation of how the issues of equitability, perceived advantage, and exceptions affect the rules - and how officials apply them.
 

jmog

Well-known member
Long pass that goes for a TD. Defense is called for defensive holding on the play (held one of the WRs).

My understanding is that the offense just declines the penalty and takes the TD.

The referees allowed the TD and assessed the penalty on the kickoff. I thought that was only allowed on dead ball fouls?

This was in the Mogadore/Kirtland game last night.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Long pass that goes for a TD. Defense is called for defensive holding on the play (held one of the WRs).

My understanding is that the offense just declines the penalty and takes the TD.

The referees allowed the TD and assessed the penalty on the kickoff. I thought that was only allowed on dead ball fouls?

This was in the Mogadore/Kirtland game last night.
The crew was correct in the enforcement option.

Anytime the defense commits a live ball foul during a scoring play, the offense has the option of enforcing the penalty on the try or the kickoff.
 

Mr Reason

New member
Is a QB in a shotgun formation permitted to slowly walk toward the line of scrimmage shortly before and while the ball is being snapped? Or is this offsides on the QB?

Happened at least a dozen times in the Wadsworth/Massillon game. It made zero difference in the outcome but I had never seen that before so I was curious.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Is a QB in a shotgun formation permitted to slowly walk toward the line of scrimmage shortly before and while the ball is being snapped? Or is this offsides on the QB?

Happened at least a dozen times in the Wadsworth/Massillon game. It made zero difference in the outcome but I had never seen that before so I was curious.
What you describe is illegal motion. The player is moving towards the line of scrimmage as the ball is snapped.

Having said that, please know that there is no foul under the NFHS Rule Code for "offsides".
 

TigerTown15

New member
Intentional short kick on the kickoff. Ball goes high in the air and is recovered by the kicking team 20yds down field. The return team doesn't have a player near the ball, but a flag is thrown for interference. There was no obvious fair catch sign made. Just curious on the explanation.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Intentional short kick on the kickoff. Ball goes high in the air and is recovered by the kicking team 20yds down field. The return team doesn't have a player near the ball, but a flag is thrown for interference. There was no obvious fair catch sign made. Just curious on the explanation.
It is always Kick Catch Interference if a player from K touches or possesses a free kick that has not been grounded.
 

bb9

Member
^^
How does this differ from a kicking team "gunner" downfield on a punt catching the ball on a short "pooch" punt.
A punt is a scrimmage kick. It can be kick catch interference but only if there's a receiver that is in position to catch the ball. AS12 can give you the official wording.
 
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