Another year, another algal bloom in Lake Erie's Western Basin.

[Indiandad]

I'll go with that when talking about Lake Erie. Never gave that dynamic proper consideration.

However, I don't believe that's the full story on St. Mary's, or any of our inland reservoirs.

Grand lake is different to an extent.
While it is true that up until about 15-20 years ago

This population is never going to get ahead of treatment plant capacity unless we have a very popular flaxseed festival or we start treating waste from India. In the event of heavy rain? Underground storage now. Previously? Lake E



So animal waste is NEVER hauled off a CAFO site? Waste product never has and never will get ahead of use, by law?

Define site?

When applying for a permit to install (permit to build a CAFO) land must be identified that will be used for waste disposal. That land must be tested for phosphorus levels prior to attaining a permit. That land must have low enough phosphorous levels to be used for waste disposal. There must be enough acres to adequately dispose of all the waste without exceeding crop removal rates of phosphorus. This means you can't use land that has high phosphorus levels and you have to have enough land so that phosphorus levels don't increase over time.
That land can be either owned by the CAFO or under contract to be used for waste disposal. It can be the field next door or 30 miles down the road.

Waste will never get ahead of use.

It has however gotten ahead in the past. This is why some fields are not allowed to be used for waste disposal anymore. However, the State addressed this nearly 30 years ago and began regulating CAFO's.
Glad to see Toledo is finally catching up.

 

[gneiss rocks]

Spot on.

Same reason CAFO's have grown in number and size. Our insatiable appetite for meat with three squares (maybe four) seven days a week 365. And this is coming from a steak/bacon/chicken lover.

MMMM...sounds like my new favorite pizza, can I get it with extra cheese?..hold the algae please.

 

[eastisbest]

define site

Me? what the hell I need you for then? Are you saying there are semantic games being played with "site?"

It has however gotten ahead in the past. This is why some fields are not allowed to be used for waste disposal anymore. However, the State addressed this nearly 30 years ago and began regulating CAFO's.
Glad to see Toledo is finally catching up.

Toledo doesn't have farm land or CAFOs along the river. Hasn't since the early 1900s. There's even a restiction on politicians at any one time. The amount of run-off from over extended treatment plant was even minimal, relative to all other causes but hey, construction pork. Eh, we're better off. Sewer systems in all major cities were antiquda.... old and needed re-do. Ours unfortunately is done for the peak population of 380,000 when we only have a population of 280,000 and decreasing. Should have just closed some neighborhoods and sewage lines off.

 

[Indiandad]

Me? what the hell I need you for then? Are you saying there are semantic games being played with "site?"

I was trying to clarify what determines the site.

Manure being trucked down the road to a CAFO owned or contracted field is still on "site" even though it is traveling down the road.
Much like a factory that spans several buildings in an industrial park.

I was trying to avoid the "gotcha game" because some would claim that transporting to a CAFO owned field is moving it off site. It could be construed either way.

 

[Indiandad]

Me? what the hell I need you for then? Are you saying there are semantic games being played with "site?"




Toledo doesn't have farm land or CAFOs along the river. Hasn't since the early 1900s. There's even a restiction on politicians at any one time. The amount of run-off from over extended treatment plant was even minimal, relative to all other causes but hey, construction pork. Eh, we're better off. Sewer systems in all major cities were antiquda.... old and needed re-do. Ours unfortunately is done for the peak population of 380,000 when we only have a population of 280,000 and decreasing. Should have just closed some neighborhoods and sewage lines off.

At least you're hitting the nail on the head with the old, antiquated sewer systems. Toledo is finally catching up.

 

[Indiandad]

Spot on.

Same reason CAFO's have grown in number and size. Our insatiable appetite for meat with three squares (maybe four) seven days a week 365. And this is coming from a steak/bacon/chicken lover.

Yes CAFO's are the result of demand. CAFO's are also highly regulated compared to small farms.
Small farms are not regulated at all.

You should be glad that production is moving toward CAFO's.

 

[eastisbest]

At least you're hitting the nail on the head with the old, antiquated sewer systems. Toledo is finally catching up.

Actually, I think we're ahead of the game aren't we? Yes it was forced on us by virtue of our location but this is coming to other communities.

I was trying to clarify what determines the site.

Manure being trucked down the road to a CAFO owned or contracted field is still on "site" even though it is traveling down the road.
Much like a factory that spans several buildings in an industrial park.

I was trying to avoid the "gotcha game" because some would claim that transporting to a CAFO owned field is moving it off site. It could be construed either way.

Gotcha. I mean, I understand.

I think I prefer the yucca mountain approach. From what you're describing, I'm gathering that a "waste site" isn't necessarily an agricultural field. It could be any field owned by the CAFO and certified based upon some negotiated "low" phosphorous level. And those "low" phosporous levels are by definition made higher than they were by application of the waste, no? Meaning more phosporous into the the chain of life. Or are we talking storage tanks here?

 

[Indiandad]

In this we agree. It is all phosphorous.

You are also correct that it moves with soil but on a particle level. You paint a picture that chunks of soil are not floating 100 miles to Lake Erie but they are. We are talking about an element here and God knows you've seen the soup that leaves the fields and eventually finds its way to a river. The Maumee is dubbed the "Muddy Maumee" for a reason.

So, CAFO waste is not treated. Correct? What happens to ALL of that enormous untreated waste annually?

Of course it moves at the particle level. I spoke of that when I addressed the soil erosion issue.
You're the one who intimated that CAFO waste was being dumped into the waters. It is not.
Soil erosion does happen. It is addressed thru the use of filter strips around waterways as well as the use of cover crops in the fall/winter.

Furthermore, not all soil that erodes has high levels of phosphorus. Just because the Maumee becomes muddy after heavy rains does not mean it all came from phosphorus laden fields.

Phoshorous from sewage flushed from your toilet doesn't get the chance to bind to soil, held in place by cover crops and wash thru a filter strip. It just goes straight to the river and lake.

 

[irish_buffalo]

Large dairy farms herded through permitting loophole as toxic algae blooms threaten local waters | Fingerlakes1.com

Large dairy farms herded through permitting loophole as toxic algae blooms threaten local waters

fingerlakes1.com

How to Conquer Fatigue and Low Energy

In this interview, my guest and I discuss strategies to help overcome fatigue. Listen to the full conversation here.

articles.mercola.com

Article in regard to the Finger Lakes of upstate NY and another focusing on Iowa. Good reads.

This is happening in regions where population is actually decreasing and WWTP are getting better at what they do. Again, one common theme. CAFO's.

 

[Indiandad]

Gotcha. I mean, I understand.

I think I prefer the yucca mountain approach. From what you're describing, I'm gathering that a "waste site" isn't necessarily an agricultural field. It could be any field owned by the CAFO and certified based upon some negotiated "low" phosphorous level. And those "low" phosporous levels are by definition made higher than they were by application of the waste, no? Meaning more phosporous into the the chain of life. Or are we talking storage tanks here?

You're getting there but not quite yet.

The waste is stored in approved holding facilities until it is ready to be land applied. These facilities can be concrete or earthen lagoons for liquid waste or buildings for solid waste.

While the application of the waste will raise the phosphorus level it is only for a very short period because the growing crop draws the phosphorus out of the soil. Thus removing the phosphorus from the field when the crop is harvested.
It is illegal to apply manure at a rate that exceeds the crops ability to remove it. Therefore making the waste application phosphorous neutral.

 

[irish_buffalo]

Phoshorous from sewage flushed from your toilet doesn't get the chance to bind to soil, held in place by cover crops and wash thru a filter strip. It just goes straight to the river and lake.

Quit telling lies. Anything flushed from my toilet gets treated. The substantial from a CAFO does not. There is no "gotcha game" here. You cannot answer what happens to all of that animal waste from a CAFO because you KNOW it does not get treated. Tell us all where that massive amount ends up? Untreated? Ponds? Tanked to fields? Regardless massive amounts of waste untreated and it finds its way to the lake.

 

[Indiandad]

Actually, I think we're ahead of the game aren't we? Yes it was forced on us by virtue of our location but this is coming to other communities.

I wouldn't say Toledo is ahead of the game. At best they on schedule.
The EPA mandated back in the 90's I believe that all municipalities had to separate storm water from sewer lines. I believe municipalities had 25 years to comply completely and had to begin submitting plans and construction immediately.

I could be off on that though.

 

[Indiandad]

Large dairy farms herded through permitting loophole as toxic algae blooms threaten local waters | Fingerlakes1.com

Large dairy farms herded through permitting loophole as toxic algae blooms threaten local waters

fingerlakes1.com

How to Conquer Fatigue and Low Energy

In this interview, my guest and I discuss strategies to help overcome fatigue. Listen to the full conversation here.

articles.mercola.com

Article in regard to the Finger Lakes of upstate NY and another focusing on Iowa. Good reads.

This is happening in regions where population is actually decreasing and WWTP are getting better at what they do. Again, one common theme. CAFO's.

That has nothing to do with Ohio law.

 

[Indiandad]

Quit telling lies. Anything flushed from my toilet gets treated. The substantial from a CAFO does not. There is no "gotcha game" here. You cannot answer what happens to all of that animal waste from a CAFO because you KNOW it does not get treated. Tell us all where that massive amount ends up? Untreated? Ponds? Tanked to fields? Regardless massive amounts of waste untreated and it finds its way to the lake.

Again, treated for what?

WWTP treat pathogens. Phosphorus is not a pathogen.

 

[Indiandad]

Quit telling lies. Anything flushed from my toilet gets treated. The substantial from a CAFO does not. There is no "gotcha game" here. You cannot answer what happens to all of that animal waste from a CAFO because you KNOW it does not get treated. Tell us all where that massive amount ends up? Untreated? Ponds? Tanked to fields? Regardless massive amounts of waste untreated and it finds its way to the lake.

The "treatment" for CAFO waste is land application for fertilizer use at rates consistent for one crop years removal.

The phosphorus ends up back in the food chain as corn, soybeans, wheat, hay or some other crop.

 

[Thavoice]

The main problem with all runoff is impervious surfacing/hydro modification and the accelerated drainage it creates.

We have removed the natural filters.

And that is why Mercer county has installed more natural filtration treatment trains to filter out the crap after trying so many other things

 

[Indiandad]

Quit telling lies.

I haven't lied about anything. If I have misspoke it was unintentional. I am trying to gave a rare, intelligent debate about an important topic. It's rare, I know.

 

[irish_buffalo]

That has nothing to do with Ohio law.

Nope, but has everything to do with CAFO's poisoning water supplies.

 

[Indiandad]

And that is why Mercer county has installed more natural filtration treatment trains to filter out the crap after trying so many other things

Large dairy farms herded through permitting loophole as toxic algae blooms threaten local waters | Fingerlakes1.com

Large dairy farms herded through permitting loophole as toxic algae blooms threaten local waters

fingerlakes1.com

How to Conquer Fatigue and Low Energy

In this interview, my guest and I discuss strategies to help overcome fatigue. Listen to the full conversation here.

articles.mercola.com

Article in regard to the Finger Lakes of upstate NY and another focusing on Iowa. Good reads.

This is happening in regions where population is actually decreasing and WWTP are getting better at what they do. Again, one common theme. CAFO's.

Great photo in the second article. That's known as a point source pollutant. Likely coming from a municipality.
CAFO's aren't allowed to dump waste directly into waters of the state. Municipalities are.

 

[Indiandad]

Nope, but has everything to do with CAFO's poisoning water supplies.

Lol

Municipalities have been openly dumping their sewage directly into rivers and lakes for 200+ years.

Putting manure on land as fertilizer.

Which one is poisoning the water supply?

 

[irish_buffalo]

I haven't lied about anything. If I have misspoke it was unintentional. I am trying to gave a rare, intelligent debate about an important topic. It's rare, I know.

The Sources and Solutions: Wastewater | US EPA

Wastewater treatment plants process water from homes and businesses, which contains nitrogen and phosphorus from human waste, food and certain soaps and detergents, and they can be a major source of nutrient pollution.

www.epa.gov

Phosphorous removal from wastewater

Biolocial and chemical processes for phosphorous removal form wastewater

www.lenntech.com

https://toledo.oh.gov/media/2791/bay-view-wastewater-process.pdf

how is phosphorous removed in the wastewater treatment process - Bing video

www.bing.com

I apologize for the last video. Simply turn down the volume.

 

[Indiandad]

The Sources and Solutions: Wastewater | US EPA

Wastewater treatment plants process water from homes and businesses, which contains nitrogen and phosphorus from human waste, food and certain soaps and detergents, and they can be a major source of nutrient pollution.

www.epa.gov

Phosphorous removal from wastewater

Biolocial and chemical processes for phosphorous removal form wastewater

www.lenntech.com

https://toledo.oh.gov/media/2791/bay-view-wastewater-process.pdf

how is phosphorous removed in the wastewater treatment process - Bing video

www.bing.com

I apologize for the last video. Simply turn down the volume.

How long has Toledo been doing this?

 

[irish_buffalo]

Municipalities have been openly dumping their sewage directly into rivers and lakes for 200+ years.

You keep saying this which is wrong. All sewage in Toledo goes through a treatment process and EPA standards before being released.

Fact: 500,000 people send their waste to WWTP where it is treated and sent back into the ecosystem.

Fact: 20,000,000 animals in CAFO's in the Maumee River watershed send their waste (untreated) to retention ponds where it is then usually pumped into tanker trucks and topically applied to fields.

 

[Indiandad]

A

The Sources and Solutions: Wastewater | US EPA

Wastewater treatment plants process water from homes and businesses, which contains nitrogen and phosphorus from human waste, food and certain soaps and detergents, and they can be a major source of nutrient pollution.

www.epa.gov

Phosphorous removal from wastewater

Biolocial and chemical processes for phosphorous removal form wastewater

www.lenntech.com

https://toledo.oh.gov/media/2791/bay-view-wastewater-process.pdf

how is phosphorous removed in the wastewater treatment process - Bing video

www.bing.com

I apologize for the last video. Simply turn down the volume.

according the first link in the first paragraph it admits that once the waste is treated it is dumped into nearby bodies of water and it includes phosphorus...

Did you read that?

 

[irish_buffalo]

Map: Florence Drenched Thousands of North Carolina CAFOs and Animal Waste Pits

Hurricane Florence's torrential rains pelted areas of North Carolina that are home to more than 1,500 industrial animal operations with more than 1,000 nearby animal waste storage cesspools. These operations have the potential to annually produce as much as four billion gallons of wet swine...

www.ewg.org

Here is another story from N.C. about the manure "pits" and what happens in a heavy rain event.

 

[Indiandad]

You keep saying this which is wrong. All sewage in Toledo goes through a treatment process and EPA standards before being released.

Fact: 500,000 people send their waste to WWTP where it is treated and sent back into the ecosystem.

Fact: 20,000,000 animals in CAFO's in the Maumee River watershed send their waste (untreated) to retention ponds where it is then usually pumped into tanker trucks and topically applied to fields.

It isn't wrong. For most of the past 200 years dumping sewage directly into the river was the Sanitation system. Not until the mid to late 1900's was sewage treated for pathogens then dumped into the same rivers. It is only very recently have some municipalities begun removing the phosphorus from sewage then dump it into the river.

CAFO's don't dump into the river. At least not legally.

 

[irish_buffalo]

A

according the first link in the first paragraph it admits that once the waste is treated it is dumped into nearby bodies of water and it includes phosphorus...

Did you read that?

Try reading the second paragraph.

Some wastewater treatment plants are able to remove more nitrogen and phosphorus from their discharges than others depending on their equipment and how they treat wastewater. Enhanced treatment systems enable some wastewater plants to produce discharges that contain less nitrogen than plants using conventional treatment methods. Upgrading wastewater treatment systems is often expensive for municipalities and rate payers, but upgrades can pay for themselves or end up saving a plant money. Various strategies to reduce nitrogen and phosphorus loads from wastewater treatments plants are being pursued across the country

.

This is why I provided links to the EPA treatment (which CAFOs are exempt), to methods for WWTP's to remove phosphorous which you said does not happen and then provided a link for Toledo's process.

 

[irish_buffalo]

It isn't wrong. For most of the past 200 years dumping sewage directly into the river was the Sanitation system. Not until the mid to late 1900's was sewage treated for pathogens then dumped into the same rivers. It is only very recently have some municipalities begun removing the phosphorus from sewage then dump it into the river.

CAFO's don't dump into the river. At least not legally.

No, not legally.

And regardless all of that waste has to end up somewhere. It does not magically disappear. Topical application creates run-off and it finds its way into the lake.

 

[Indiandad]

Map: Florence Drenched Thousands of North Carolina CAFOs and Animal Waste Pits

Hurricane Florence's torrential rains pelted areas of North Carolina that are home to more than 1,500 industrial animal operations with more than 1,000 nearby animal waste storage cesspools. These operations have the potential to annually produce as much as four billion gallons of wet swine...

www.ewg.org

Here is another story from N.C. about the manure "pits" and what happens in a heavy rain event.

1) Manure storage lagoons are built in such a manner that water drains away from them. Surface water doesn't run into them. At least not in normal circumstances.
2) Florence hit in October. As I stated earlier, most waste is land applied between July and October. There's a pretty fair chance most of those lagoons had been emptied recently.

3) Are we to assume that Florence only dumped torrential rains on CAFO's and not on the municipalities of NC? Why no mention of all the municipal waste that surely was flooded down the rivers?

 

[Indiandad]

T

No, not legally.

And regardless all of that waste has to end up somewhere. It does not magically disappear. Topical application creates run-off and it finds its way into the lake.

topical application does not create run off when done properly. Given that CAFO's are highly regulated and surveilled, it is a rarity that it is done improperly.
The waste nutrients end up back in the food chain via crop production (crop removal rates).

Municipalities dump their waste directly into the rivers and lake.