AFTER 3 PLUS YEARS LET'S TALK PITCH COUNT

BASESWIMPARENT

Well-known member
After three years of pretty much standard pitch count rules for amateur baseball, what does everyone think? Do you think that it has helped prevent arm injuries? Are u guys seeing a reduction in arm injuries? Should the pitch counts be smaller or should they be relaxed? What other steps should be taken if arm injuries are still occurring?
 

TheTaxMan

Member
Have very rarely ever gone near most pitch counts before they existed. If we did, it was with a kid who we knew could throw that number and would have the rest he needed.

Since the pitch counts, we've had enough arms that we've never been in any danger of coming close. If you paid attention and set up your schedule with enough off days (which we have now, with the season being extended), I can't see why anyone would have much problem with it.....unless, of course, you were at a very small school with very little pitching. THEN, I could see a coach being put in a pinch. But then you just create pitchers from the kids who say they AREN'T pitchers.

My concern is that the number of pitches are the same for Seniors, as they are for 7th graders. Does anyone really think a 13 year old should (with the rare exception), be able to throw 125 pitches?
 

thavoice

Well-known member
In my many years of baseball I have seen very, very few arm injuries. Spring of 2018 I did see a coach of the Black Sox located at the Bo Dome in Hillard throw a 12 year old 100+ pitches, in their first game of the early April, in temperatures of the high 30s, or low 40s and it was brutal out. The kid complained of arm issues the whole season.

but i digress.

The true answer to your question I believe wont be know for a decade. Many arm injuries that lead to TJ and such are years of over use.

WIth that said, I absolutely HATE how so many coaches, mostly at the youth levels, stay within the rules but not the spirit of a rule. I would rather see the boy through 1 game in a weekend tournament, throw 7 innings and 90-100 or so pitches (once he has been built up to that, or course) than what I have seen over the course of the last two years where coaches will throw a kid in 3-4 games over a 3 day tournament and throw lets say 85. Getting warmed up, throwing a couple of innings, and then not pitching again for a couple hours, and then ramping up again, and doing so 3-4 times in a 2-3 day period, in my opinion, is more harmful than the kid throwing 90-95 pitches in one game.
 

fortfan

Well-known member
We have not had a pitcher really even get close to the pitch rule max. I heard that there was a team in Indiana that had one stud pitcher and tried to use him against an Ohio team without the proper resting time, but as far as I know that was just a rumor.
 
Pitch count is a waste of time, the state only put it in to say they did. This was to make sure they stay at the table for future rule changes at the national level. If they really did care about it, we would have a database to enter all games, amount of pitches thrown and by whom. Searchable by all coaches so that we could see who pitched when and when they are available again.

I rarely see HS coaches misusing arms. I'm sure there are some horror stories but for the most part we have good men taking care of young arms.
 

BASESWIMPARENT

Well-known member
Have very rarely ever gone near most pitch counts before they existed. If we did, it was with a kid who we knew could throw that number and would have the rest he needed.

Since the pitch counts, we've had enough arms that we've never been in any danger of coming close. If you paid attention and set up your schedule with enough off days (which we have now, with the season being extended), I can't see why anyone would have much problem with it.....unless, of course, you were at a very small school with very little pitching. THEN, I could see a coach being put in a pinch. But then you just create pitchers from the kids who say they AREN'T pitchers.

My concern is that the number of pitches are the same for Seniors, as they are for 7th graders. Does anyone really think a 13 year old should (with the rare exception), be able to throw 125 pitches?
Good Point about the 13 and 14 year olds. I think that is when the damage really starts.
 

BASESWIMPARENT

Well-known member
All of you guys bring up really good points. The intent of the rule is to prevent arm injuries by abusing one or two really good pitchers throughout the year and of course you hear horror stories of Kansas high school coach who threw one pitcher for 150 pitches in a state tourney game. I love the idea of the database for both competitive and research reasons. My thoughts are that the 12u, 13u and 14u coaches really push the limits for their pitchers in terms of pitch count and don't take into account the weather at all. I too have a story where I was coaching a 14u game and we ran into a really good pitcher who was beating us 6 to 1 when he was pulled in the bottom of the next to last inning (6th?). We came back on the relief pitcher and but lost 6 to 5. During practice that week the manager asked us coaches if we knew how many pitches that pitcher had thrown? It was 124 in low 50 degree day. I think that is when the damage is done.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
All of you guys bring up really good points. The intent of the rule is to prevent arm injuries by abusing one or two really good pitchers throughout the year and of course you hear horror stories of Kansas high school coach who threw one pitcher for 150 pitches in a state tourney game. I love the idea of the database for both competitive and research reasons. My thoughts are that the 12u, 13u and 14u coaches really push the limits for their pitchers in terms of pitch count and don't take into account the weather at all. I too have a story where I was coaching a 14u game and we ran into a really good pitcher who was beating us 6 to 1 when he was pulled in the bottom of the next to last inning (6th?). We came back on the relief pitcher and but lost 6 to 5. During practice that week the manager asked us coaches if we knew how many pitches that pitcher had thrown? It was 124 in low 50 degree day. I think that is when the damage is done.
The problem at these youth levels have multiple layers.
A. The 'win at all costs': Parents pay big bucks so the coaches feel like they expect to always win.
B. 3-8 games over a 3-4 day period. No matter how 'stacked' the team is there are pitchers who are head and shoulders above others and coaches lean on them.
C. 'Non local coaches'. What I mean by this is for the most part the coaches of these youth teams dont reside in your town or district. They "dont care" of the ramifications down the road of a kid as they will be long gone. When I was coaching we wanted to win, of course, but we also know the families. We seen them around town, at the grocery, church, and will see them year after year when their kids get to HS and have to live with how we used them growing up and ultimately we want to see that Spring HS team to succeed. Plain and simple. THAT is where we got our pride, in how our HS Program did with the kids we coached for a couple/few years. Quick story: Had a really good pitcher, post season tourney in the losers bracket in a lose and go home game. We were playing, well my alma mater, and when I chose to not pitch a certain kid (our ace) the other coach afterwards said he was surprised I didnt pitch a certain kid. My answer was simple, he had pitched a a couple/few innings 2 days prior, and noticed he was still a little tight when getting loosened up so I went with someone else. My answer was 'the kid has a great future, no need to risk that right now' as he was still a little sore. I think many of these youth "elite' dad coaches would have pitched the kid in that situation as it was their best, and only, chance to win, and since they will never likely see the kid/family again they dont have the personal interest in the well being of the kid.


Last summer we were at a fleecing tournament at Cedar Point sports complex. First couple of days the coach threw the boy to the exact limit each day/game he could. When they made the tournament part and got to the semi's one dad and I were chatting and he was befuddled when I said I hope the boy wasnt going to pitch because of his inning/pitch count.
 
Kids don't throw enough on their own to build up arm strength today because we have too much structure and this is why we have arm problems. Most kids only pick up a baseball when they go to the academy for instruction from $65 p/h instructors. Pretty costly way to play catch.

In the late 60's and 70's when I grew up we played pick up sandlot games in our neighborhood all day long, and then went and played in our little league or community league games in the evening and nobody had arm issues. By the time we hit High School I can't remember anyone having arm issues. Why? because we threw everyday with no parents or silly state rules telling us what was too much. As a HS and summer ball coach I can't stress enough to kids to simply play catch everyday, do some long toss and make up your own games in in your neighborhood like wall ball, wihiffle ball, pickle in the middle (great for learning how to do run downs too) or whatever games your memories serve you guys reading this....I sound old now, time for me to stop. Start piling on me guys, lol.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Kids don't throw enough on their own to build up arm strength today because we have too much structure and this is why we have arm problems. Most kids only pick up a baseball when they go to the academy for instruction from $65 p/h instructors. Pretty costly way to play catch.

In the late 60's and 70's when I grew up we played pick up sandlot games in our neighborhood all day long, and then went and played in our little league or community league games in the evening and nobody had arm issues. By the time we hit High School I can't remember anyone having arm issues. Why? because we threw everyday with no parents or silly state rules telling us what was too much. As a HS and summer ball coach I can't stress enough to kids to simply play catch everyday, do some long toss and make up your own games in in your neighborhood like wall ball, wihiffle ball, pickle in the middle (great for learning how to do run downs too) or whatever games your memories serve you guys reading this....I sound old now, time for me to stop. Start piling on me guys, lol.
This is what I have noticed the last two years doing this crap.....

Many of the pitchers throw so much in a 2-3 day period on the weekend that it has become difficult to get mound time in between weekends. "Back in the day" a kid would pitch in a game twice a week at most. I know a tthe HS level when I was coaching there were times we had our ace throw in a big game on a saturday and throw his 5-7 innings. Then around tuesday/wed or so would be "side work"/an inning or so in another game.

I know the boy throws the max almost every weekend and it isnt until wed/thur where he can safely get some side work in, but with an eye of pitching a lot again starting Friday i am hesistant to throw on the side.
 

BASESWIMPARENT

Well-known member
Kids don't throw enough on their own to build up arm strength today because we have too much structure and this is why we have arm problems. Most kids only pick up a baseball when they go to the academy for instruction from $65 p/h instructors. Pretty costly way to play catch.

In the late 60's and 70's when I grew up we played pick up sandlot games in our neighborhood all day long, and then went and played in our little league or community league games in the evening and nobody had arm issues. By the time we hit High School I can't remember anyone having arm issues. Why? because we threw everyday with no parents or silly state rules telling us what was too much. As a HS and summer ball coach I can't stress enough to kids to simply play catch everyday, do some long toss and make up your own games in in your neighborhood like wall ball, wihiffle ball, pickle in the middle (great for learning how to do run downs too) or whatever games your memories serve you guys reading this....I sound old now, time for me to stop. Start piling on me guys, lol.
I am little younger than you but we did the same thing when I was young. We played sandlot games all the time, kept stats, played against other neighborhoods and one kid even introduced us to stick ball which was fun as all get out. But, we only played two games a week from late April till July 4th in our rec league so that might have also been why we rarely had any arm issues.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
We played so much whiffleball, and the coach could tell as it messed oru swings up so he had us bat the opposite way in whiffle ball. I think it an odd, unintended way, it helped a little bit
 

USA70PP

Well-known member
Kids don't throw enough on their own to build up arm strength today because we have too much structure and this is why we have arm problems. Most kids only pick up a baseball when they go to the academy for instruction from $65 p/h instructors. Pretty costly way to play catch.

In the late 60's and 70's when I grew up we played pick up sandlot games in our neighborhood all day long, and then went and played in our little league or community league games in the evening and nobody had arm issues. By the time we hit High School I can't remember anyone having arm issues. Why? because we threw everyday with no parents or silly state rules telling us what was too much. As a HS and summer ball coach I can't stress enough to kids to simply play catch everyday, do some long toss and make up your own games in in your neighborhood like wall ball, wihiffle ball, pickle in the middle (great for learning how to do run downs too) or whatever games your memories serve you guys reading this....I sound old now, time for me to stop. Start piling on me guys, lol.
You are so right about kids not throwing enough on their own anymore. Growing up on a farm the only time you played ball with a group was when you were at school. I'd spend a lot of time throwing against the lower part of the wall of a brick house. It was mainly practice for fielding. Low at the angle of the ground and wall for pop-ups, higher for grounders, higher still for line drives. Throw against a bale of hay for pitching. Have four or five balls and go get them after throwing and repeat. Even after chores you were never too tired for a game of catch when dad had a free moment. Field of dreams kinda.
 

BobcatQB

Active member
You are so right about kids not throwing enough on their own anymore. Growing up on a farm the only time you played ball with a group was when you were at school. I'd spend a lot of time throwing against the lower part of the wall of a brick house. It was mainly practice for fielding. Low at the angle of the ground and wall for pop-ups, higher for grounders, higher still for line drives. Throw against a bale of hay for pitching. Have four or five balls and go get them after throwing and repeat. Even after chores you were never too tired for a game of catch when dad had a free moment. Field of dreams kinda.
Ever tried it w/ a golf ball? That was always fun...you could get some serious distance!
 

thavoice

Well-known member
You are so right about kids not throwing enough on their own anymore. Growing up on a farm the only time you played ball with a group was when you were at school. I'd spend a lot of time throwing against the lower part of the wall of a brick house. It was mainly practice for fielding. Low at the angle of the ground and wall for pop-ups, higher for grounders, higher still for line drives. Throw against a bale of hay for pitching. Have four or five balls and go get them after throwing and repeat. Even after chores you were never too tired for a game of catch when dad had a free moment. Field of dreams kinda.
Our park installed what looks like 3 sided racquet ball courts constructed of concrete. The HS baseball coach had it put up in the 70's I believe.

It gets used.

Alot.

In Coach's book last year he stated how he got the idea back in the 60s, or before, and I tell you what kids spend a lot of time there, as did myself. As you stated, you can work on pitching and fielding all by yourself. Strike zones are painted on the wall.

It has been instrumental for the development of the youth baseball element in our town. I used it as an adult starting in April-ish to get ready to throw BP in June/July for a team I coached.
 
Last edited:
Great follow ups guys! You brought up some other great ways to improve with paid for instruction that needs to be passed along to today's kids
 

BASESWIMPARENT

Well-known member
I have another thought about arm injuries and tell me what you think. Two summers ago I watched a round table about arm injuries on the MLB channel. There was a doctor, a former exec, a scout and Tom Hall (the guy that is shown in million dollar arm as the USC pitching coach). They talked about youth baseball and how that might be the root of today's arm problems. They recommended pitch count (very similar to what has been adopted), talked about training and long tossing to build up arm strength. That show is where I got my stat about 40% D1 pitchers have had or will have arm TJ surgery. But the one doctor proposed that their might be another reason. He said he thought one answer might be boys are throwing too hard too long too young. He recommended that pitchers not throw over 85 mph before the they turn 16 and then they should be carefully monitored. He proposed that elbow and maybe even the shoulder ligaments and tendons are not really mature to take the extended stress and that the boys/young men are doing the damage to themselves before they even graduate high school. Do you think this is plausible?
 

thavoice

Well-known member
I have another thought about arm injuries and tell me what you think. Two summers ago I watched a round table about arm injuries on the MLB channel. There was a doctor, a former exec, a scout and Tom Hall (the guy that is shown in million dollar arm as the USC pitching coach). They talked about youth baseball and how that might be the root of today's arm problems. They recommended pitch count (very similar to what has been adopted), talked about training and long tossing to build up arm strength. That show is where I got my stat about 40% D1 pitchers have had or will have arm TJ surgery. But the one doctor proposed that their might be another reason. He said he thought one answer might be boys are throwing too hard too long too young. He recommended that pitchers not throw over 85 mph before the they turn 16 and then they should be carefully monitored. He proposed that elbow and maybe even the shoulder ligaments and tendons are not really mature to take the extended stress and that the boys/young men are doing the damage to themselves before they even graduate high school. Do you think this is plausible?
I have another thought about arm injuries and tell me what you think. Two summers ago I watched a round table about arm injuries on the MLB channel. There was a doctor, a former exec, a scout and Tom Hall (the guy that is shown in million dollar arm as the USC pitching coach). They talked about youth baseball and how that might be the root of today's arm problems. They recommended pitch count (very similar to what has been adopted), talked about training and long tossing to build up arm strength. That show is where I got my stat about 40% D1 pitchers have had or will have arm TJ surgery. But the one doctor proposed that their might be another reason. He said he thought one answer might be boys are throwing too hard too long too young. He recommended that pitchers not throw over 85 mph before the they turn 16 and then they should be carefully monitored. He proposed that elbow and maybe even the shoulder ligaments and tendons are not really mature to take the extended stress and that the boys/young men are doing the damage to themselves before they even graduate high school. Do you think this is plausible?
I have another thought about arm injuries and tell me what you think. Two summers ago I watched a round table about arm injuries on the MLB channel. There was a doctor, a former exec, a scout and Tom Hall (the guy that is shown in million dollar arm as the USC pitching coach). They talked about youth baseball and how that might be the root of today's arm problems. They recommended pitch count (very similar to what has been adopted), talked about training and long tossing to build up arm strength. That show is where I got my stat about 40% D1 pitchers have had or will have arm TJ surgery. But the one doctor proposed that their might be another reason. He said he thought one answer might be boys are throwing too hard too long too young. He recommended that pitchers not throw over 85 mph before the they turn 16 and then they should be carefully monitored. He proposed that elbow and maybe even the shoulder ligaments and tendons are not really mature to take the extended stress and that the boys/young men are doing the damage to themselves before they even graduate high school. Do you think this is plausible?
Um.
I question the 40% figure.
and in terms of not allowing a kid under 16 to throw 85 MPH, um i think most pitchers have that covered.

WIth that said, I do agree that much of the arm issues stem from the culmination of over use through the years. The amount of tournaments/innings taht may pitchers are asked to throw is insane.
Kids are playing more games than ever, but getting less practice/arm maintenance in between, than ever.
It would not be uncommon in my youth to throw maybe 6-10 innings a week. Nowadays, the kid may throw that same amount, but it is over a Fri-Sunday, not a full week.
 
Agree with Voice and Wimp, both bring up good points. Here is something maybe you could all kick around, I am not a fan of travel baseball prior to 14U...there in lies the pressure that is mentioned to throw too hard too soon. Weekend after weekend of having that much pressure put on kids physically, but more than that mentally to please their parents and coach adds to that arm stress. Gets back to too much organized ball, for goodness sakes they have Coach pitch travel ball for 7 yrs olds I have heard about, C'mon! What a money grab that is.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Agree with Voice and Wimp, both bring up good points. Here is something maybe you could all kick around, I am not a fan of travel baseball prior to 14U...there in lies the pressure that is mentioned to throw too hard too soon. Weekend after weekend of having that much pressure put on kids physically, but more than that mentally to please their parents and coach adds to that arm stress. Gets back to too much organized ball, for goodness sakes they have Coach pitch travel ball for 7 yrs olds I have heard about, C'mon! What a money grab that is.
My town has some youth travel, but it is just a few local 'cow town' tournaments but how they run their youth baseball program is someting I think you would be interested in.

After school lets out....Late may through July.
*Mon-Wed-Fri.
*10 AM for the 3rd/4th graders
*1PM for the younger kids.
*No uniforms.
*New teams picked each day. (used to work there, you use some sort of number system so no kid is picked last)
*10AM kids play 5 - 6 innings, time dependent.
*1pm play 3 innings, each kid hits each inning.
*10am the park worker pitches, so its like coach pitch,and you play basic baseball rules. Kids change positions almost every inning.
*1pm block the kids just play wherever.


As i stated, no assigned teams, no uniforms, no high pressure situations, and with it being during hte day most parents are not there to yell, scream and pressure the kids.


The workers, usually HS baseball players and recent graduates, teach the game and you just go out and have a blast.

FREE!

WIth no assigned teams if a family wants to go on vacation, they can do so without "letting down the team".


There are a few tournament teams as I stated that go to some local tournaments, but nothing like what you see at berliner and these high cost places.

A premium is placed on FUN, and teaching the game, and the kids get to play a myriad of positions.


LIttle league age is Tues/Thur games that have a very strict innings count which FORCES the coaches to use A LOT of pitchers.


To many of you city folk, who spend thousands and thousands of dollars for the team, even more for travel, and see their kids get overused this may seem like a 'pipe dream' , stupid, old fashioned, but it has worked for decades and the program routinely is one of the tops in the state.


Kids play with their buddies from age 5-18
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Dr. James Andrews has provided these statistics in his research over the years....

50% of pitchers between the age of 7and 14 will pitch with pain
There are 5 times the TJ surgeries on HS pitchers now then there were 10 years ago.
A tenfold (10x) increase in visits to orthopedic specialists in that same time frame.
25% of major league pitchers and 16% of minor league pitchers have had UCL procedures.

The two main causes...'

Year round baseball
Poor mechanics (lack of qualified pitching coaches)

The problem is real. Pitch counts were needed. The hodgepodge of state specific pitching regulations (innings, days rest, etc..) weren't working (as evidenced by the facts provided by Dr. Andrews)
 
Voice you must not be from NE Ohio because here the Travel Ball marketing machine has all the parents brainwashed into buying in on their programs out of the womb and they will all be getting D1 offers and drafted right out of high school. I love your format, keep up the good work wherever you are doing it from.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Voice you must not be from NE Ohio because here the Travel Ball marketing machine has all the parents brainwashed into buying in on their programs out of the womb and they will all be getting D1 offers and drafted right out of high school. I love your format, keep up the good work wherever you are doing it from.
Very far from NEO, thank God. Have a buddy who has kids at Iggy and talking to him last summer, NO THANKS.
The step son....his dad got him in this travel stuff 2 summers ago in Columbus and man what a nutroll it has become, and again, NO THANKS. Too many games, too little working on the craft. I was keeping a log of a typical weekend, how many balls hit to him, how many AB's, how many swings, and the time spent, travel included, and yeah ya face some good talent but the juice isnt worth the squeeze. We can accomplish more in 2 hours on a weekend training session than 3-4 days spent at the ballfield.

Dont get me wrong, games are important, but when that is pretty much all you do..........When the season got into full steam when I played in the summer, we would have a 60-90 min practice before/after home games because as coach said the little things are lost in season when you play every day.

but what do i know.....i played when every kid used the same bat and didnt carry around 4 per kid.....oh how did we manage.


I understand our model wouldnt work in most places, but i would say 90% of the kids can walk, ride their bike to the park and participate. The country bumpkins, myself included, could always find a ride from another parent, to make it into town.

I guess I was just blessed, to no end, and spoiled.
 
Last edited:
I dislike the baseball culture here, it prevents a lot of good athletes from participating because it is economically not affordable for a lot of lower income communities of all races.
When I ran a summer team I did it independently, kept the cost less than $550 per player and gave scholarships to families with discounts that couldn't afford it that I paid for out of my own pocket just to give kids an opportunity at a higher level competition. (not singing my own praises so don't pile on me, just saying)
We didn't need to train all winter long and accumulate more costs paying for indoor facilities. I always say this as a HS coach, summer ball teams get all their spring training done by their HS teams for free! I have noticed kids who train all winter long, especially pitchers, come into HS practices burned out already and with arm issues. I have had to shut down kids at the start of seasons for 2 weeks with dead arm several times over the years. What a disservice the summer ball and pitching coaches have done to many of us because of the winter zealously. That is another whole thread we could start, lol.
We played in the Prospect League out of Cleveland (a great organization btw) on weekdays and only in local tournaments in NE Ohio with no overnight travel so as to not burden families with more costs. We practiced on off days whenever possible to get our reps in and stay sharp, the best thing was most kids practiced on their own without me calling a practice.
I typically had to pick up 2-3 players every game and drop them off after as well since parents had to work or attend to other kids in family in evenings. It was well worth it just listening to them talk baseball there and back and listening to Indians games on the radio.
The team was comprised with a racial mix of kids from Cleveland and Akron from different economic classes who found a way to become best buds all summer long, learned to understand each others cultures, and would spend the night at each others houses and hangout during the days together. We even had one family who had a pool that held team swim parties...probably the most enjoyable time of my coaching career and the life lessons they learned were more valuable than any of their baseball experiences.
Inexplicably somehow these cast offs who couldn't make the bigger named academy teams because of misjudged talent or finances, ended up with 7 of them playing in college and were either juniors or seniors in this shortened college season. They all did it on their own with no promises from me that playing on this team would guarantee that opportunity, unlike the hoards of academy and big name travel teams in NE Ohio who overcharge and spin their team is the end all to be all to playing college baseball to parents who gobble up all those false pretenses.
We need to get back to the KISS theory for baseball and stop making it cost prohibitive to so many. Sorry I rambled on.
 
Last edited:

thavoice

Well-known member
I dislike the baseball culture here, it prevents a lot of good athletes from participating because it is economically not affordable for a lot of lower income communities of all races.
When I ran a summer team I did it independently, kept the cost less than $550 per player and gave scholarships to families with discounts that couldn't afford it that I paid for out of my own pocket just to give kids an opportunity at a higher level competition. (not singing my own praises so don't pile on me, just saying)
We didn't need to train all winter long and accumulate more costs paying for indoor facilities. I always say this as a HS coach, summer ball teams get all their spring training done by their HS teams for free! I have noticed kids who train all winter long, especially pitchers, come into HS practices burned out already and with arm issues. I have had to shut down kids at the start of seasons for 2 weeks with dead arm several times over the years. What a disservice the summer ball and pitching coaches have done to many of us because of the winter zealously. That is another whole thread we could start, lol.
We played in the Prospect League out of Cleveland (a great organization btw) on weekdays and only in local tournaments in NE Ohio with no overnight travel so as to not burden families with more costs. We practiced on off days whenever possible to get our reps in and stay sharp, the best thing was most kids practiced on their own without me calling a practice.
I typically had to pick up 2-3 players every game and drop them off after as well since parents had to work or attend to other kids in family in evenings. It was well worth it just listening to them talk baseball there and back and listening to Indians games on the radio.
The team was comprised with a racial mix of kids from Cleveland and Akron from different economic classes who found a way to become best buds all summer long, learned to understand each others cultures, and would spend the night at each others houses and hangout during the days together. We even had one family who had a pool that held team swim parties...probably the most enjoyable time of my coaching career and the life lessons they learned were more valuable than any of their baseball experiences.
Inexplicably somehow these cast offs who couldn't make the bigger named academy teams because of misjudged talent or finances, ended up with 7 of them playing in college and were either juniors or seniors in this shortened college season. They all did it on their own with no promises from me that playing on this team would guarantee that opportunity, unlike the hoards of academy and big name travel teams in NE Ohio who overcharge and spin their team is the end all to be all to playing college baseball to parents who gobble up all those false pretenses.
We need to get back to the KISS theory for baseball and stop making it cost prohibitive to so many. Sorry I rambled on.
Same.
Although we dont have taht minority/inner city issue here, i hate how baseball is becoming less and less inclusive.
Back when it was rec departments the cost was so extremely low. In our town you can still play your whole life for next to nothing and still be successful. The money being thrown around is insane and I think runs some families away and into some other sports
 

BASESWIMPARENT

Well-known member
Guys, I think we are mixing issues here. I agree that there is really no reason for players age 14 and under to really travel unless they want to go out of town to play in Nashville or South Carolina just for fun. It is not necessary at all especially in SWO where they have some really good teams and programs down here that are really not cost prohibitive. When I was involved with a team, we started at like $250 and that was mostly for unis, we played mostly league games and maybe a couple holiday tourneys. By the time we finished with the team at 14U, we were at 750.00 with one out of town tourney demanded by the parents! There are some good rec leagues in the area too but the competition is not as keen.

I do agree about the practice issue. We played a lot of games in a short amount of time with little practice. But finding an appropriate sized field without paying a fortune for it was really difficult. There is one program down here that has a lot of success at the young ages and they practice a lot both inside and outside. I have never seen a youth team practice like them. They drill and drill and basically win a lot of their games by not beating themselves and letting you beat yourself. But they are really, really expensive. There is a reason they are based out of one of the most affluent areas in Ohio.

Once you get to 15 and you want to play baseball after high school, you need to position yourself on a team that (a) you are going to play, (b) has good instruction, (c) is going to events that you are going to be seen by serious scouts from the major leagues and major programs and unfortunately for whatever reason those tourneys are down south in Nashville and Atlanta. These programs can be expensive but the good ones have "scholarships" and have helped out those kids that need some help. A really good program has a legit recruiting program and I have no problem saying that my son would not have gotten the JUCO opportunity that he has without them. If you would like to know who I am talking about, DM me and I will share my experience.

To the high school coach complaining about arm troubles for his pitchers because of club programs, I feel your pain. But it is not the workouts in the winter that cause the problem, it is the type of workout that they are doing. There are two pitchers on my kid's high school team that go to the same place every off season for pitching workouts and at the beginning of the high school season they complain about arm soreness. In particular, they complain about elbow soreness. It happened again already this year. My son goes to a program that emphasizes weight training and MET ball throws. No weighted balls and no arm acceleration training and he has never complained about arm trouble (knock on wood). I would be glad to answer any questions about that program if you want. The program manager teaches it up in Franklin and is the current pitching coach for Middletown Fenwick.

Finally, I would tell you guys that if you think the cost of baseball is out of hand up here north of the Mason-Dixon line you would be overwhelmed by the cost and commitment down south. The way they do it in Tennessee, Georgia and Florida would blow your mind. Maybe that is why the SEC is darn successful, I don't know.
 

Red14

Well-known member
Youth sports, high school sports, money, college, pro prospects, fun, want to, bad coaching, good coaching, overprotective parents. All of these things have something to do with pitch counts and why they were instituted.
I'm sure Dr. James Andrews knows his stuff and his statistics are true. I'll also say that there are more ways than ever to be seen by a orthopedic surgeon, and more DO tommy john surgeries. I played baseball, high school and college in the 80's and I never heard of anyone, that I played with or against that had tommy john surgery. It just was for pro athletes. So of course his stats are up.

My philosophy is very simple and it goes with an earlier poster on this thread. We have so many arm injuries not because our kids throw too much, but because they throw too little. If I'm going to run a Marathon in June 1, I'm not going to rest until May 25th and start getting ready for it. It's a build up process. Also, your LEGS have to be in shape first, before you begin throwing alot. If your legs get fatigued, you lose your stamina, mechanics go and you injure your arm. It's as simple as that. I threw multiple complete games in high school and college, 130-140-150 pitch games and didn't ice. Threw a couple 10 inning extra inning games also. Back then the pitching rules were 10 innings in 3 days.
 

rossford_resident

Active member
Youth sports, high school sports, money, college, pro prospects, fun, want to, bad coaching, good coaching, overprotective parents. All of these things have something to do with pitch counts and why they were instituted.
I'm sure Dr. James Andrews knows his stuff and his statistics are true. I'll also say that there are more ways than ever to be seen by a orthopedic surgeon, and more DO tommy john surgeries. I played baseball, high school and college in the 80's and I never heard of anyone, that I played with or against that had tommy john surgery. It just was for pro athletes. So of course his stats are up.

My philosophy is very simple and it goes with an earlier poster on this thread. We have so many arm injuries not because our kids throw too much, but because they throw too little. If I'm going to run a Marathon in June 1, I'm not going to rest until May 25th and start getting ready for it. It's a build up process. Also, your LEGS have to be in shape first, before you begin throwing alot. If your legs get fatigued, you lose your stamina, mechanics go and you injure your arm. It's as simple as that. I threw multiple complete games in high school and college, 130-140-150 pitch games and didn't ice. Threw a couple 10 inning extra inning games also. Back then the pitching rules were 10 innings in 3 days.
We always pitched 6 inning complete games when I was a kid. Of course, we also had two 35 oz. aluminum bats in the bat bag with worn grips that nobody could swing and two kids who played in jeans. I feel like kids throw a lot harder a lot earlier than they did 30 years ago. We had a college-age league in the summer up where I grew up. One year a guy who'd pitched in JC down in Tennessee moved up to work for his dad for the summer. He threw in the high 80s and it looked like 100 MPH to us.
 

Red14

Well-known member
We always pitched 6 inning complete games when I was a kid. Of course, we also had two 35 oz. aluminum bats in the bat bag with worn grips that nobody could swing and two kids who played in jeans. I feel like kids throw a lot harder a lot earlier than they did 30 years ago. We had a college-age league in the summer up where I grew up. One year a guy who'd pitched in JC down in Tennessee moved up to work for his dad for the summer. He threw in the high 80s and it looked like 100 MPH to us.
It seems like every little league had that one kid who was just a little more mature than most of the others and threw gas. I'm ok with innings and pitch limitations for little league, one so you don't burn a kid out and two so you develop more pitchers. When I coached my kids youth teams I let anyone who wanted to a chance to pitch. I think it's important to at least be exposed to it. Some kids can never be a pitcher because they don't like the spotlight of being in the middle of the diamond with a ball. But you don't know until you try. I'd say the difference now from 30 years ago is that sadly, some kids NEVER play baseball or softball. I feel in generations past, EVERYONE at least played little league baseball. And if not that, they at least played in the vacant lot in the neighborhood. All we did in the summer, other than playing our youth league games were playing sandlot ball or whiffle ball. I can't imagine how many throws I've made in my lifetime. I think that's where kids arms are different. We threw all summer, every day.
 
.
Top