Africentric?

DDoubleG

Member
Dayton area I think Fort Loramie and Minster probably would have beat up on everyone in D1 seeded below the top-6 in the sectional draw this year, and they probably would have been very competitive at worst and likely would have beaten most of the teams seeded 3-6. The only teams I'm confident would beat them and probably decisively were Centerville and Wayne, who were both loaded with D1 talent.

In terms of level of play, both should probably not be in D4. An average D4 public school is not working with anywhere near the caliber of athlete or the quantity in numbers that they have. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe both of those schools typically have enough numbers to field freshmen teams, the same as most of the other better D3 and D4 programs in the northern Miami Valley and stretching north to around Lima. There are a lot of D2-D4 public schools that are fortunate if they can get 15-16 girls to play in a normal year .
You are right, both Minster and FL will have anywhere from 24-30 girls in their high school program. Both graduate 65-75 kids in a grade, so they are in DV because of the school size. It is more than those two schools in this region, most girls sports are competitive in all sports. I just dont get how you say they should not be in D4? Just because of their success? Their successful because of the young ladies desire to be successful, they find good quality coaches who know how to communicate to the young women. Success does not mean they should not be in that Div. I believe heart ache in this thread is that AF has a much larger area of young girls to choose from than most D3 schools. Where as FL, Minster, Ottoville and other successful girls basketball programs have for the most part, the same area/population to pull athletes from. So because of that, they should be in D4.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
You are right, both Minster and FL will have anywhere from 24-30 girls in their high school program. Both graduate 65-75 kids in a grade, so they are in DV because of the school size. It is more than those two schools in this region, most girls sports are competitive in all sports. I just dont get how you say they should not be in D4? Just because of their success? Their successful because of the young ladies desire to be successful, they find good quality coaches who know how to communicate to the young women. Success does not mean they should not be in that Div. I believe heart ache in this thread is that AF has a much larger area of young girls to choose from than most D3 schools. Where as FL, Minster, Ottoville and other successful girls basketball programs have for the most part, the same area/population to pull athletes from. So because of that, they should be in D4.
Very different culture in your area when in comes to athletic competition, and it's one of many advantage that those schools hold over those in the lower divisions that results in them dominating yearly.

Success is essentially what's being argued as to why some believe the Africentrics of the world should not be in D3/D4. The advantages are different, but the Minsters and Fort Loramies are definitely working with some serious advantages over the majority of their competition from the rest of the state when it comes to tournament time. The talent pool in that typical 65-75 kid class is a heck of a lot better than what most are working with even if its home grown. Outside of their area, 95% of the publics from the other parts of the state have no chance of ever competing against them.

I think CB has been a failure and there's really no good formula for trying to right-size competition. The state should just allow the option to move up as many divisions as a school desires, or possibly just make D1 an open division for anyone looking to move up and test themselves. If this were allowed, I have no doubt that Africentric would move themselves up as I think it would benefit their program and make it even better. In their years where they have predictably dominant groups, I would hope that teams like Fort Loramie, Minster and Ottoville would consider moving up to D3 or D2 to hunt better competition.
 

BigK72

Active member
I do agree with what you are saying, if I had kids left in school and they went to a bad educational school/bad sports team and they had an opportunity to go to a better school, I would do everything I could to get my child into that school. I dont have the answers but I do also understand how it is hard for a schools like Versailles Ohio and some of the smaller town schools to compete with AC. I dont believe the Tri-Village girls team was recruited like the boys team but they have not made it out of regionals. No different than Toledo Christian, yes they recruited Davis, but again, they did not make it out of Regionals last year. Corner Stone Christian was a recruited team, they have not won state. My point is, the smaller home grown schools are still winning D4 for the most part.

Since it was brought up

The current Tri-Village Boys team has 2 open-enroll students. One has open enrolled since elementary, the other since his 9th grade year. The team that won state didn't have any, unless you count the student who's parent worked at the school

The current girls team doesn't have any unless you count the student who's parent works at the school
 
Toledo Christian's girls basketball team landed a local D1 recruit who transferred there after Zia Cooke left Toledo Rogers. The circumstances regarding her "transfer" are more than dubious. Their entire team has been beating up on everyone inside the TAAC for the last two years and has regularly beaten D2 teams and some D1's too. Madison Royal-Davis is instrumental in that.

Obviously I'm not one to throw rocks at glass houses, but hearing some of the details about what her dad wanted from the school's he was selling his daughter to are insane.
Well that didn't help them tonight. Some homegrown girls Convoy Crestview took care of TC tonight.
 
Very different culture in your area when in comes to athletic competition, and it's one of many advantage that those schools hold over those in the lower divisions that results in them dominating yearly.

Success is essentially what's being argued as to why some believe the Africentrics of the world should not be in D3/D4. The advantages are different, but the Minsters and Fort Loramies are definitely working with some serious advantages over the majority of their competition from the rest of the state when it comes to tournament time. The talent pool in that typical 65-75 kid class is a heck of a lot better than what most are working with even if its home grown. Outside of their area, 95% of the publics from the other parts of the state have no chance of ever competing against them.

I think CB has been a failure and there's really no good formula for trying to right-size competition. The state should just allow the option to move up as many divisions as a school desires, or possibly just make D1 an open division for anyone looking to move up and test themselves. If this were allowed, I have no doubt that Africentric would move themselves up as I think it would benefit their program and make it even better. In their years where they have predictably dominant groups, I would hope that teams like Fort Loramie, Minster and Ottoville would consider moving up to D3 or D2 to hunt better competition.
65-75 is boys and girls. These teams play bigger schools during the regular season to get ready for tournament. Ottoville is closer to 40 kids (boys and girls) per class, but you want them to be move up? Advantages? What? Hard work and a determination to succeed for your community. That's not advantages, that's just pride.
 
Those losses are nearly always to d1-d2 teams. Many of their wins are to the tune of 9X-1X against teams in their actual division/conference, with a couple of them involving TC holding their opponents to single digit points. They may not be "dominant" in you eyes, but they don't really belong in d4 with the state of play there.
Well reality hit Toledo Christian tonight. Welcome to West Central Ohio.
 

AHS90

New member
Africentric is just playing by the rules like Akron Stv-Stm does. Graham does the same thing in wrestling. Schools all over the nation do the same thing. Unfortunately this is the way of the world we live in. Look at college sports now, kids transfer several times with no consequences. Personally they should have to follow the same rules as a public school, students need to sit out the second half of the season and the tournament of the year they transfer.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
65-75 is boys and girls. These teams play bigger schools during the regular season to get ready for tournament. Ottoville is closer to 40 kids (boys and girls) per class, but you want them to be move up? Advantages? What? Hard work and a determination to succeed for your community. That's not advantages, that's just pride.
Not to offend anyone here, but having 65-75 kids in a class is one of few things they have in common with a typical public school of their size. I can guarantee that on the girls side Mechanicsburg is not lacking in coaching, hard work, pride, or community support, and over the last handful of years or so they've had a good program for being a D4 public school and have been regular scheduling up a few non-league games against schools like Jonathan Alder, Marysville, Olentangy and some of the WBL schools. They really haven't come close to getting out of their sectional, and usually are losing by double digits if not getting blown out. A couple years ago they lost in the regular season to a D1 Olentangy team that went around .500 by 16 points. That year Mechanicsburg lost to Botkins by 30 in the regular season and to Loramie by 35 in the tournament.

I outlined in a previous post what advantages these schools have over 95+% of those they get to compete with in D4. Some may not see some of these things as beneficial, but they make a huge difference in attaining high level success and in being able to sustain success year to year with a lower enrollment as opposed to having significant up and down cycles like a school such as Southeastern has. For as good as the peaks have been for tradition rich Southeastern, they have had a lot of down cycles including the present in spite of all of the tradition and community support.

I don't propose jacking anyone up a division or more trying to use a mathematical formula like competitive balance does, but in a world where schools were given the opportunity to voluntarily move up to play better competition I'd hope these schools would occasionally move up for better competition as I imagine Africentric would. In a typical year they'd beat 70% or more of the teams in D1 and would be state contenders in D2 and D3.
 
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DDoubleG

Member
So you are saying the schools in Putnam County, the MAC and Shelby County conference has an advantage because of desire, hard work, family support, community support, good coaching, two parent families and culture? I would say that is not an advantage, that is the way it should be everywhere. Small schools who are successful for doing things the way the state design high school sports should not be penalized. My only problem with a school such as AC or Toledo Christian is that schools should be assigned a division based on the population they can pull from. Yes, I know alot of public schools have open enrollment which would inflate their Division placing. I believe if the State would do this then schools would close the open enrollment option. The problem with that is I also believe parents should have the ability to send kids to the best school they can, including AC. If those parents feel AC is the school is the best option for their children to be successful, then they should have that option. I am just not sure there is a good option to control the recruiting and the school transfers.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
So you are saying the schools in Putnam County, the MAC and Shelby County conference has an advantage because of desire, hard work, family support, community support, good coaching, two parent families and culture? I would say that is not an advantage, that is the way it should be everywhere. Small schools who are successful for doing things the way the state design high school sports should not be penalized. My only problem with a school such as AC or Toledo Christian is that schools should be assigned a division based on the population they can pull from. Yes, I know alot of public schools have open enrollment which would inflate their Division placing. I believe if the State would do this then schools would close the open enrollment option. The problem with that is I also believe parents should have the ability to send kids to the best school they can, including AC. If those parents feel AC is the school is the best option for their children to be successful, then they should have that option. I am just not sure there is a good option to control the recruiting and the school transfers.
The point is they certainly aren't the only schools that are working hard or that have the desire to compete at a high level. In any number of sports there are several schools in the OHC that have good programs that are well coached, work hard and that have great community support and they are rarely competitive against and never beat MAC teams in the postseason and only beat the lower end SCAL teams in basketball. Many OHC folks like to complain about Springfield Catholic Central having enrollment "advantages" (and they do), and the two best boys basketball teams they've had in the last 20 years got blown out of the water in regionals by MAC teams that had gigantic size that their selective enrollment team couldn't physically compete against. There is no "just try harder" that's going to bridge their competitive gap with the best teams in those leagues when the best teams in those leagues compete at a level and bring a caliber of athlete to the table that's far above their enrollment level, the same as selective enrollment public schools and private school that are located in larger metro areas. The same as those schools, the who that makes up their 60-80 kids per class walking the hallways in much better than who's walking the hallways at the same sized schools in the OHC or elsewhere in the state.

There is no competitive balance or right sizing to adjust for that, and I stand by the best system being allowing schools to voluntarily move themselves up. For the topic of this thread, I believe Africentric would put themselves into D1 for girls basketball if allowed.
 
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Da man

New member
People complain about africentric because it's a city school. What about the small schools or the many other schools that are good that have kids from other schools. There's D4 schools who top players all came from the same city. There is a D2 state qualifier with that as well. Recruiting is all over. If ohsaa wants to be fair they should allow a kid to transfer one time with no penalty, then after that you sit a whole year.
 

kaizen

New member
People complain about africentric because it's a city school. What about the small schools or the many other schools that are good that have kids from other schools. There's D4 schools who top players all came from the same city. There is a D2 state qualifier with that as well. Recruiting is all over. If ohsaa wants to be fair they should allow a kid to transfer one time with no penalty, then after that you sit a whole year.
Tell a judge or good lawyer that. They beat the ohsaa into the ground with those restrictions
 

Oliver24

New member
Minster, Ft. Loramie , etc... do not recruit. Nor do they play teams that recruit. D4 is the least effected by all of this typically. D3 and up have major issues with it. D3 may be the most negatively effected by it though, because it’s still smaller schools (the lower end) and a stacked/recruited team can really off-set the balance.
 
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Tesoro

Well-known member
Afrocentric “Nubians” opposite of “European Caucasian’s”. Joke of a program. Sadly... girls across the state get cheated
 

Tesoro

Well-known member
Not sure they are going there for a better education, college readiness scores typically fall into the bottom 25% of the state. Furthermore they consistently score below the district average on state test. Now if you arguing that going there will increase the likelihood of getting a basketball scholarship, I would agree.
Great points.
 

Oliver24

New member
Ottawa Glandorf 38
Africentric 30
They did not get out of the regional for a first time in a long time.
This has to be the weakest team I have seen from them in a while. IMHO I don't see any D-1 prospects on that team.
Africentric has only been playing for a little over a month...that was a huge factor. Watched the game online... they looked very out of shape. OG has been playing since November. OG enrollment is a little questionable with 3 feeder elementary schools (really a D2 team), but I am glad they got the win and are moving on to State.
 
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redfox90

New member
Africentric has only been playing for a little over a month...that was a huge factor. They looked very out of shape against an OG team that has been playing since November. OG enrollment numbrers are questionable with 3 feeder elementary schools (really a D2 team), but I am glad they got the win and are moving on to State.
How would the number feeder schools affect a schools divisional level?
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
Number of feeder schools for a small rural district is a measure of how willing you are to maintain community grade schools as opposed to consolidating and centralizing everything on one campus.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
Anybody paying attention to Fort Loramie's tournament run? Good Lord. Sectional finals they beat Jackson Center by 60, districts they beat Country Day by 34, and in the regional tournament they beat Minster by 11 and Tri-Village by 24.

That regional semifinal against Minster was the real state championship game. State tournament I'm thinking maybe Crestview can keep it within 20-25 points like Tri-Village. State finals will be a blood bath against whoever the opponent ends up being from the eastern half of the state.
 

nwwarrior09

Well-known member
Africentric has only been playing for a little over a month...that was a huge factor. Watched the game online... they looked very out of shape. OG has been playing since November. OG enrollment is a little questionable with 3 feeder elementary schools (really a D2 team), but I am glad they got the win and are moving on to State.
Late starts and having to "pause" for cases or contact tracing made a big impact on those affected this year. Even for kids, it can be very difficult to regain basketball shape if forced to sit on their rear ends for 2-3 weeks at home and to figure out how to do something active on their own in isolation.
 

DDoubleG

Member
Anybody paying attention to Fort Loramie's tournament run? Good Lord. Sectional finals they beat Jackson Center by 60, districts they beat Country Day by 34, and in the regional tournament they beat Minster by 11 and Tri-Village by 24.

That regional semifinal against Minster was the real state championship game. State tournament I'm thinking maybe Crestview can keep it within 20-25 points like Tri-Village. State finals will be a blood bath against whoever the opponent ends up being from the eastern half of the state.
Minster had the lead going into the 4th quarter and got beat 14-4 in the fourth. The Putoff girl for FL was averaging 6 on the year and had 17. There are only a few D4 in the state that can play with FL or Minster over the last 4 years. It is the first time Minster's two guards have lost in the State Tournament over the last 4 years. I agree FL should win it, but you never know what is going to happen, a team could have a day where everything is going well for them and everything bad for FL.
 

D4fan

Well-known member
Cant believe I read every post in this thread just to make one simple point. What about private schools who have radically fluctuating enrollment? In the 1900's I watched VASJ play for a big school title. Then they won a D2 title, and a D3 title. In 2013 their enrollment dropped significantly but the athletes continued to attend and they had 3 D-1 recruits as they walked in to the small school title without breaking a sweat.

On the flip side I watched the Marion Local vs Cornerstone Christian game a few years ago with Corrnerstones fine recruits from not only other states but other nations as well. One of the best games I've ever seen as a stubborn Marion Local kept punching the vastly more talented Cornerstone and emergerged victorious. Of all state championship games I've watched over the years, that one is easily my favorite as it speaks to competitive mentality overcoming athletic disadvantage.
 

IAMGREAT

Member
Honestly, it has nothing to do with any school’s name or location for arguments sake. It’s about what is happening on the basketball court, and in my opinion it is wrong. Africentric’s unprecedented success in girls basketball in a relatively short period of time is suspicious. We all understand that some schools have more success than others, but stacking the deck is disingenuous. They’ve had an inordinate number of division 1 scholarship athletes for a D3 high school team (They had girls from last years team go to Rutgers, Minnesota and Texas Tech), and had the #2 player in the nation go to Tennesse two years ago...with two two current members going to Pitt and Indiana State...and currently have a frosh with an offer from Ohio State. Does that sound like a D3 high school team?? I don’t know what the fix is, except to say that the OHSAA needs more divisions in basketball and severe punishments for not reporting accurate enrollment/residence numbers. To date, they have not come up with a sound solution. If anything, it is getting worse. And sadly, people are becoming numb to it.
Did you have this same attitude when South Euclid Regina won multiple titles??? As a supporter of Africentric the Coaches, Teachers, and Administrators work hard on providing students in Columbus with another option at success. Well hopefully you feel better, they lost last week. However, all five starters are returning.
 

14Red

Well-known member
Here we go again.. maybe your a parent or a fan of a team that just was beaten by Africentric. This has been discussed many of times on this forum for years. Columbus City schools has a lottery system in place. Most of the better basketball players that come out of CPS middle schools go to Africentric for academics and athletics, it is a stem school. Further more and more importantly, the program and school has given multiple African American students the opportunity to attend college and further their education for free. I get it that some may say that they are not on the same playing field as the other small D3 schools. But, most will argue the same for the big school divisions. Private, Catholic, vs Public... Cleary unfair for the public schools right?! Lastly we live in the day in age where growing up in the same school district and playing together up until high school is dinosaur. AAU and club sports dominate high school sports across the board, so what we see now is families taking their kids out of a bad high school program and placing them with a better program. Why? because their kid is an investment. Why punish your child by having them play with a bunch of kids they may grew up with that dont care or the numbers are low. Look at the girls basketball numbers across the state its pretty sad. All the while a family has spent thousands of dollars on club ball and trainers. The parent in my opinion have that right to give their child the best chance to succeed. Its the nature of the beast nowadays. Sorry for the dissertation!!!!
What you say is 100% true and this does happen. However, one thing that never, ever seems to be discussed is the push for kids to go to a school to increase their chances to get seen and get scholarships for college. Absolute myth. First of all, the D1 athletes are the D1 athletes, no matter what school they go to. There is very, very finite number of D1 scholarships out there. The myth is ALL colleges give athletic scholarship and that's false. D2's give "some", most coaches have to divy it up to stay competitive. D3's, ZERO. And some families don't spend thousands, they spend tens and hundreds of thousands.
I've often said if the family just saved the money from the trainers, camps, AAU teams, motels, gas and misc. dollars they spent on a kid chasing a basketball scholarship, they probably paid for most of a 4 year degree anyway. Then they have to take a loan out and pay for college again. And a high percentage of these (especially girls) "choose" to give it up after high school anyway. I've never been a fan of kids and parents who move from school to school, it normally points to a situation where the kid doesn't get along with other kids or coaches.
 

leachracing

New member
I wouldn't disagree with that statement. If you are playing high level AAU and attending camps/training, it likely won't pay off against college unless you get AT LEAST half of it paid. But I do know lots of families gamble working 'vacations' and weekends away in small increments against what they see to be a much higher chunk and dealing with financial aid down the road...
 
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