If you look at CB ratios it should not come as a shock that St. Ed, X, Hoban, and TCC literally leap off the page in D1/D2. So to your point yes with the right CB, actual enrollment doesn't matter. Hell TCC only has 219 boys total, and is easily a top 5 D1.
A Simple Solution To The Competitive Balance Issue
- Thread starter Snowbelt Man
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If you look at CB ratios it should not come as a shock that St. Ed, X, Hoban, and TCC literally leap off the page in D1/D2. So to your point yes with the right CB, actual enrollment doesn't matter. Hell TCC only has 219 boys total, and is easily a top 5 D1.
WJ-OSU-STEELERS
Well-known member
I agree 100% with what you stated. Sometimes it’s not alway the quantity but the quality of ‘transfers or move in’s’ that one gets. I don’t know how that can be tracked.
I have to ask, where do you think Massillon should be? Do you think they should be in Div II or Div I?
Based on what their CB score? Those ratios don't approach the others. But I do think Massillon and Winton Woods would be as, or nearly as, successful in D1 as in D2. D1 is harder to design because unlike the other divisions the spread is so huge and conceivably limitless.
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WJ-OSU-STEELERS
Well-known member
I agree, Massillon would have been one of the three or four favorites in D1 this year and could easily have won it as they could possibly win DII this week.
Schools that are taking advantage of transfers/move in’s for the primary purpose of trying to improve their football team do it in different ways
* Large CB #’s
* Taking advantage of a loop hole in counting CB
* Encouraging/enticing select players for transfer/move in purposes - the quality over quantity
There are about 25 or so schools in the state that consistently take advantage of the transfer/move in’s in one of the 3 ways above - without naming them most know who they are. Most are private but some are public. There is no perfect answer.
Oil Filter
Well-known member
Doesn't OHSAA mandate a 30-day layoff after the end of the season?
Crimson and Black
Well-known member
I forgot about that 5 game rule.
I am flattered that you may (or may not) include Massillon or WW (with 0 and 1 title) last 10 years on par with Ed, Hoban, LaSalle etc with numerous and consecutive titles, but frankly I do not put ANYONE on par with them. But yes we and Glenville now are among the very small handful of publics that private defenders point at.
But sure you could conceivably put Massillon, WW, TCC, Hoban, LaSalle, Walsh, Watterson several others ALL in D1, and drop several D1's to D2, if you were simply designing divisions based on something subjective like a poll or Drew Pastuer or something like that.
firewatch
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It’s stupid because in your model Marion Local would be D-1 currently.Sounds like someone is afraid to move up
or afraid of who’ll move up to their division
Crimson and Black
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Massillon should be exactly where they fit in based on enrollment. Right now they are D2.
Crimson and Black
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Which 5 schools have the highest CB number? I’m feeling a bit lazy today 
Oil Filter
Well-known member
If you try to account for every contingency, the only thing you end up with is a headache.
A team can have a CB of 22 with one point for each starter. A team can have a CB of 50 with only a couple of those kids playing meaningful minutes. Whose transfers are more impactful? Which program appears to be bringing in more front-line talent?
Even if you knew how measure that it would be a disaster to do so. So, you get what you have. Strap it on and play.
Which 5 schools have the highest CB number? I’m feeling a bit lazy today
Well obviously the top however many (in the dozens) are all private. Someone can look up the top 5 publics.
Oil Filter
Well-known member
That asserted advantage does not manifest itself on the field. Closed-enrollment schools are disproportionately represented at the higher levels compared to their open-enrollment brethren. Example: half of the D2 Final Four were closed enrollment; 4 of the 6 public D2 regional finalists were closed enrollment.
There are about 700 schools with football teams. About 10% are private, a little more than 70% are open-enrollment, and a little less than 20% are closed-enrollment. Didn't verify this (that's an exercise left to the reader), but it would not be surprising to find that more than 20% of the public-school regional finalists across all divisions were closed-enrollment.
Ok so I looked. Top 5 publics are Mckinley (71), Winton Woods (66), Princeton (53), Dayton Northridge (51), then Massillon/Withrow/Indian Valley tied at 37 ea.
Thavoice
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D5 Liberty Center has 39.
Oil Filter
Well-known member
Who's going to judge what constitutes a "legitimate" transfer? Who's going to have the right and authority to determine intent and rule on the propriety thereof?
Why? They can pick and choose based on who has the better vocal music program or who has the better debate team. Why not sports?
Would you tell a kid that he can't be on Student Council because he transferred? That he can't be in the spring musical?
Figured I'd miss one. Thanks. I didn't even bother to look below D4 so that's a big number for them.
Oil Filter
Well-known member
How does closed-enrollment McKinley have the highest CB of any public school in the state?
Seems at odds with all of their noise about how Massillon is always bringing in kids.
Thavoice
Well-known member
Yeah, those are pee wee divisions so I can see why you missed it.
For a rural school, yea its a big time number, believe 3-4 in the whole division.
No idea. Would like to know myself. Either they are paying tuition or the Admin. said screw all that paperwork we are D1 either way, lol.
Seriously though why does X, Moeller, Ed, Iggy etc. even bother with it?
Lol. I didn't say that but who figures a D5 public has a bigger CB than all but 1 D2 including Massillon?
Oil Filter
Well-known member
The point is that when you use facts instead of feelings, a lot of preconceptions get exposed.
Based on what I said they’d be D4. (Assuming they won D6 and 5 the prior years)
Marion Local is out scoring opponents by 50 points a game in the playoffs. I wouldn’t say that’s “competitively balanced.”
If we looked at division based on prestige and not just enrollment, teams like ML should be begging to move up because they can win at least D5 without much competition until week 15. Glenville people are on here talking about how they wish to play a higher division and I think should be everyone’s attitude.
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Football’s Competitive Balance System Punishes Public Schools
To a man, the Hilltopper players and coaches never complained about their opponent on Friday night.
www.geaugamapleleaf.com
firewatch
Well-known member
It amazed me that entire article didn’t mention Massillon one time. Got to be a first.
Crimson and Black
Well-known member
You certainly make valid points….but it just doesn’t feel like it did. But nothing stays the same right?
Oil Filter
Well-known member
Seems to me that OHSAA could save schools the pointless administrative exercise of filling out the forms and tell them "You don't have to submit anything, but we'll put you in DI if you don't."
Would not impact the majority of D1's who are D1's no matter what their CB score is. But to your point it would be interesting to see if anyone in D2 or below would want to do that. I personally don't think anyone would.