2019 Cleveland Browns

BR1986FB

Well-known member
The Browns OL is bad. Makes it hard to do anything well. Add a bad OC and/or HC who is seemingly stubborn or unable to adjust, and you get this year’s Browns offense.
Their O-Line isn't great but it's not as bad as advertised. I've been a big Baker fan but dude has the yips. He's afraid to pull the trigger in a lot of cases. Some of that, I'm sure, has to do with the confidence in his O-Line. On 4th & 4, with the game on the line, he had a chance to let it rip to OBJ, who was behind the defender, for a game winning TD and he took the "safe" route, double clutched, and threw to Landry, in double coverage on a checkdown.
 

BR1986FB

Well-known member
Speaking of being too predictable, heard another interview where breaking down tape of the Browns in down and distance scenarios, they ran the same freaking play almost every time in most of the third down scenarios. If that isn't the most damning statement about Freddie Kitchens' play-calling, then nothing is. Also, BR, did you see the statistical breakdown of the Browns' efficiency using 11 personnel versus 12 personnel? Just what you said: using the two tight ends, an RB, two wideouts, and Baker Mayfield under center works better than splitting three wide, using one tight end, and occasionally emptying the backfield and putting Mayfield in the gun. But, guess what formation they use the majority of the time?
This isn't rocket science. Like I said about Greg Roman, he knows he (Jackson) isn't a pocket passer and functions better rolling out. He also knows he's a runner so they are going to ride that horse (running QB) until he breaks a leg and needs put down. Baker functions better in play action. Putting him in the gun is easier to defend for defenses because they can shut down his throwing lanes. Plus the books out that he likes to roll right so teams are defending that and forcing him in that direction.

I know that passing QB's are what supposedly win championships but even Pittsburgh is winning with Mason Rudolph. He's not a very good QB but their OC has tailored things to limit his mistakes and win with running and the defense. The Browns have a much more talented roster and are 2-6, which makes this a huge disappointment.
 

Crusaders

Moderator
Their O-Line isn't great but it's not as bad as advertised. I've been a big Baker fan but dude has the yips. He's afraid to pull the trigger in a lot of cases. Some of that, I'm sure, has to do with the confidence in his O-Line. On 4th & 4, with the game on the line, he had a chance to let it rip to OBJ, who was behind the defender, for a game winning TD and he took the "safe" route, double clutched, and threw to Landry, in double coverage on a checkdown.
It’s pretty damn bad. I’m not saying Baker would be Drew Brees with a good OL but he’s obviously not helped by poor protection and crap play design
 

cjb56

Well-known member
The Browns, post-Hue, tailored last year’s offense to Baker’s strengths by simplifying it and using rolling pockets, left and right, to give him throwing lanes. A lot of creative routes and formations, and using Chubb, make a simplified offense hard to defend.

Makes me wonder if Wylie was right when he claimed the offense and Baker’s success were all Ken Zampese, with Freddie just calling plays designed by others. Now that Freddie has full control, the offense doesn’t remotely look like last years “Freddie’s offense.” Maybe because last year was really “Ken’s offense”?

Or, they are...for some odd reason...running Monken’s offense? I have no idea why Freddie would feel bound to that, though.
 

BR1986FB

Well-known member
The Browns, post-Hue, tailored last year’s offense to Baker’s strengths by simplifying it and using rolling pockets, left and right, to give him throwing lanes. A lot of creative routes and formations, and using Chubb, make a simplified offense hard to defend.

Makes me wonder if Wylie was right when he claimed the offense and Baker’s success were all Ken Zampese, with Freddie just calling plays designed by others. Now that Freddie has full control, the offense doesn’t remotely look like last years “Freddie’s offense.” Maybe because last year was really “Ken’s offense”?

Or, they are...for some odd reason...running Monken’s offense? I have no idea why Freddie would feel bound to that, though.
Zampese is a name that I've brought up previously. Baker even mentioned it in an interview and Zampese was huge in his development last year. Trying to figure out how Ryan Lindley is helping, other than being one of the Fabulous Baker Boys.

Oh, and do you think that offense Lamar Jackson's running in Baltimore is complicated? No! I'm sure they've dumbed it down significantly because I don't take old Lamar to be the brightest crayon in the box. Do the same with Baker. Totally agree.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
Whoa, let's pump the brakes on that, at least for the moment. Daniel Jones isn't making anyone's all-rookie team. Vernon is looking like the player everyone expected him to be the last few games. Are you saying that you would turn down the Beckham trade? Because Kitchens/Mayfield haven't figured out how to use him is no reflection on Beckham. He's still one of the top five receivers in the game. His personality is no different than it was in NY. Gettleman isn't looking smarter, but Kitchens is looking dumber, and so, to a degree, is Dorsey, particularly when it comes to evaluating offensive linemen. I know both teams are 2-6, but I'd still rather have the Browns' roster than the Giants'.
No doubt.

It sounds like Beckham often tweaks his routes due to his own perceived need to elude double coverage. It seems clear that Baker doesn't yet have a sense for what Beckham will do, right ? That takes time, and I'm sure that is something that evolved over many reps with Eli at the NYG, and developed as OBJ's reputation increased. OBJ brought the rep and the double coverage to Cleveland with him, and that rapport has yet to develop.

Beckham's wardrobe idiosyncrasies aside, he's been terrific. Great, thoughtful interview, and a solid teammate, willing to block all the way down the field and giving it his all. It seems every media clown wants to scoop his first tantrum, and he's cool as can be. The one comment overheard recently is a nothingburger in the grand scheme of things.

Kitchens' play-calling and sets selection continue to suck , telegraphing plays to the opposing D or under-using players situationally. Hopefully there are a few CHAPTERS of his playbook that will now be open with Hunt. I'd love nothing more than to see them take the line of scrimmage 8 seconds early in the same two-back Chubb/Hunt-Hilliard set 95% of the time (until our TEs return), motioning out Hunt or chip releasing any one of the three and rotating WRs. Under center and tons of play action, with a little pistol or shotgun counter with Hunt if Chubb is off the field.

Agree on the Browns' roster 100%. Waiting on rookie Head Fred to get his yit together and be quick and decisive, not cute or predictable and slow to call the play.
 
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cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
No, not at all. My point is that those seemed like no doubter trades to start but with the Browns performance they don't look quite so uneven at this point.

In the interest of full disclosure, I have never been an OBJ fan!
AJ Green, Julio Jones - great WRs that aren't attention whores. That is the dream, right ? Can't always get what you want.....
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
HC/OC just not as good as last half of the season last year with Jackson gone,should have rolled with them again.
Too bad we didn't get BArians with Freddie as OC. I wanted to see a 3 year BA contract with third year sunset payday year and a promotion for Freddie if in order as a successful OC.

Oh well.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
I think your point is a good one. It's the perception that Beckham's worth less as his numbers decrease. The reality is that the numbers are dependent at this juncture on a bad offense not being able to properly utilize him.

In the end, the value in any trade is determined by history, that being what becomes of the picks and players. The Browns got a huge haul for the pick that became Julio Jones. In the final analysis, Atlanta got he better end of the deal because the Browns turned the picks into a large pile of dog ****. We'll see what becomes of the first and third picks (and Peppers) that the Giants received for OBJ.
Apples and oranges, snarky-clarky.

Your Browns PTSD is palpable..... :cry: I feel your pain.

Does he only do horror films?
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
Will be interesting to see if old Freddie knows how to utilize Kareem Hunt, now that he's back. I'll beat the dead horse for the 1000th time but 12 personnel, Baker under center and run, run, run.

Greg Roman (Baltimore OC) knows Lamar Jackson's limitations but is tailoring his offense to what he does well. The Browns should be doing the same with BM.

Everyone thinks putting him in the shotgun is advantageous where it's actually allowing defense to adapt to him and cut down on his throwing lanes. Utilizing play action, with Hunt & Chubb, will reduce that and open things up for OBJ & Landry. Oh, and try rolling out to the left once in a while. Heard an interview with Aqib Talib and he said that when he was still with the Rams their game plan was to force him to roll right and they had him right where they wanted him. Too predictable.
95% agree. Especially on Roman/Harbaugh's wisdom. Too much trauma for Baker to be learning a different game than college ball. Evolve with your player, don't force a fit.

The previous uses of Hilliard this season, if familiar with a few game reps and instinctive to the other 10 guys with Hunt in Hilliard's place now, may pay a few dividends, because that mimics situations where Hunt shined in KC. Baker in shotgun with Hunt to one side will look scary, because again, that is where Hunt has shined in the past. I really hope most plays they get their azzes to the line with the same interior/backfield personnel - a two back set 8 seconds before 0 playclock and ready to motion or git after it run/PA. Rotate the WRs and run their defensive backfield to death.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
Speaking of being too predictable, heard another interview where breaking down tape of the Browns in down and distance scenarios, they ran the same freaking play almost every time in most of the third down scenarios. If that isn't the most damning statement about Freddie Kitchens' play-calling, then nothing is. Also, BR, did you see the statistical breakdown of the Browns' efficiency using 11 personnel versus 12 personnel? Just what you said: using the two tight ends, an RB, two wideouts, and Baker Mayfield under center works better than splitting three wide, using one tight end, and occasionally emptying the backfield and putting Mayfield in the gun. But, guess what formation they use the majority of the time?
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
Here we go already...
I noticed Kevin Stefanski isn’t on the list. As a Vikings fan, I have mixed feelings about him as an OC. On the one hand, I like that he uses a FB a lot in the run game and pounds teams down with Cook and the rookie RB. On the other hand, you have a stellar WR duo and a Pro Bowl TE, but the offense isn’t as prolific as it should be. Many are quick to blame Cousins for that, and they might be right.

I wish it was just about the results with Freddie. 2-6 might not smell as badly with better play-calling and offensive sets.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
Greg Roman was mentioned in an earlier post. He should be a candidate to replace Freddie, though he would not be in my top three.

As of now I would go McCarthy, Jim Harbaugh, Lincoln Riley...in that order.

McCarthy is a successful veteran coach and would bring this team together. I also believe Baker would do well in his West Coast O version.

I am not a fan of Jim Harbaugh at Michigan, but I am a fan of his as an NFL coach. He will win. But would he tie himself to Baker? Not sure. Would he work for Dorsey? Doubtful. He would want complete control and I don’t think Haslam would fire Dorsey this soon.

Riley is NFL unproven, but the Browns invested heavy in Baker and nobody knows how to use Baker better than Riley.
Jim was Kaep's QB whisperer at SF. Who was the OC ? Lamar Jackson is a step and a half faster than peak Kaep, but the league did figure him out the second year. Even GB shut him and SF off after the SB run. Kaep was irrelevant after that. I think a similar thing will happen with Lamar, unless he continues to improve as a passer. Harbaugh would seem to be a bad fit here, anyway.

Don't want Riley.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
The Browns OL is bad. Makes it hard to do anything well. Add a bad OC and/or HC who is seemingly stubborn or unable to adjust, and you get this year’s Browns offense.

With the Ok line, Baker had fewer tipped balls than any major college QBs. It was one of Dorsey's favorite stats. Guess who leads the league in tipped passes, at least a few weeks back ? Even if the DE doesn't get home Baker is affected on several levels by having 40% of a good O-line on passing downs. Dorsey put his boy out there with this line. Clearly a two-year plan ?

I think so. Gotta be.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
Their O-Line isn't great but it's not as bad as advertised. I've been a big Baker fan but dude has the yips. He's afraid to pull the trigger in a lot of cases. Some of that, I'm sure, has to do with the confidence in his O-Line. On 4th & 4, with the game on the line, he had a chance to let it rip to OBJ, who was behind the defender, for a game winning TD and he took the "safe" route, double clutched, and threw to Landry, in double coverage on a checkdown.
A lot of his confidence came from running quick-hitters to perfection over and over and daring defenses to stop him, to get a rythym going. We don't seem to see that as much now.....

The O-line IS bad in pass-protect.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
The Browns, post-Hue, tailored last year’s offense to Baker’s strengths by simplifying it and using rolling pockets, left and right, to give him throwing lanes. A lot of creative routes and formations, and using Chubb, make a simplified offense hard to defend.

Makes me wonder if Wylie was right when he claimed the offense and Baker’s success were all Ken Zampese, with Freddie just calling plays designed by others. Now that Freddie has full control, the offense doesn’t remotely look like last years “Freddie’s offense.” Maybe because last year was really “Ken’s offense”?

Or, they are...for some odd reason...running Monken’s offense? I have no idea why Freddie would feel bound to that, though.
Maybe Freddie doesn't have an offense of his own ? He ran Haley's playbook through the end of the year last year, right ?
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
Zampese is a name that I've brought up previously. Baker even mentioned it in an interview and Zampese was huge in his development last year. Trying to figure out how Ryan Lindley is helping, other than being one of the Fabulous Baker Boys.

Oh, and do you think that offense Lamar Jackson's running in Baltimore is complicated? No! I'm sure they've dumbed it down significantly because I don't take old Lamar to be the brightest crayon in the box. Do the same with Baker. Totally agree.
They started slowly and ran the damn ball with Mr Cerebral, Kosar, so.....
 

clarkgriswold

Well-known member
AJ Green, Julio Jones - great WRs that aren't attention whores. That is the dream, right ? Can't always get what you want.....
It always seems to be the receivers. TO, AB, Brandon Marshall, Randy Moss, Rod Tidwell...

To Odell's credit, he's been pretty well behaved as a Brown and seems to be a good teammate. If you'd have told me before he'd be this ignored in the offense and not sounded off, I;d have never believed it.
 
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Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
It always seems to be the receivers. TO, AB, Brandon Marshall, Randy Moss, Rod Tidwell...

To Odell's credit, he's been pretty well behaved as a Brown and seems to be a good teammate. If you'd have told me before he'd be this ignored in the offense and not sounded off, I;d have never believed it.
Don't forget about Dez and good old "Give Me the Damn Ball" Keyshawn Johnson.
 

BR1986FB

Well-known member
This team is going nowhere as long as Haslam owns it. Back in 2014, he overruled analytics and had them draft Manziel when the numbers guys said Bridgewater was the top choice and now he's done it again. Not saying he would've been better but just reported that analytics recommended Kevin Stefanski (Vikings OC) as the head coach choice and Haslam overruled them and went with Kitchens.

Oh, and Antonio Callaway is a healthy scratch today so I'm sure there's probably some drama coming with that.
 
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