Comments by Badin's coach.....thoughts?

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run2wyn

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“I’m not going to talk about this game,” Rams coach Tom Sunderman said. “It was a heck of a run our kids made. This is probably the youngest team I’ve ever coached since I’ve been at Badin. To make it to the regional finals with all kids that live in our district, that all weren’t recruited, that were all Catholic school kids — I’m proud of them.

“I just didn’t want our kids to quit,” Sunderman added. “When you recruit six or seven Division I’s, you get four transfers in, you got 10 girls that live out of district — none of them went to parochial schools in grade school — it’s going to be hard. You have to have all the stars line up, and they didn’t line up.”

“Last year, we had a chance to win the game,” Sunderman said. “… We had girls that had been here three times — with last year being the third time. So, they had the experience, number one. Number two, (Purcell) didn’t have the four recruits.”

https://bchssreport.com/badin-hits-familiar-roadblock-purcell-in-d-ii-regional-final-loss/
 
 
If this is how he feels, then what's the problem? This is a sensitive subject for people on both ends of it. I watched a boys game over the weekend that exposed the advantage held by these private schools, particularly at the lower levels. The Wellington Dukes, a solid division 3 basketball team with lost 68-22 in the district championship to Lutheran East.

It's ridiculous. What is worse is when they pretend like their "championship journeys" were magical.
 
Here is the thing with those comments, if they prove false is he opening himself up to a law suit? What if Purcell has had enough of the allegations and finally decides to go after people who say that they recruit? Could Badin/Tom be held liable?
 
Seriously coaches and fans need to get over this "cheating" and "recruiting" narrative. It's open borders, and it works both ways. Kids should have the ability to choose their school.

All of these private schools that whine about this can certainly do it themselves. Just because they choose not to doesn't mean the other schools are doing something illegal, immoral or wrong.

It also points directly at the "perception" that these private schools continue just to want people that are like them (it's not a perception, it's reality). This is proven over and over again from comments of private school coaches and fans. Stop whining about other schools recruiting diversity when you refuse to acknowledge it as a market differentiator.
 
caringbody said:
Here is the thing with those comments, if they prove false is he opening himself up to a law suit? What if Purcell has had enough of the allegations and finally decides to go after people who say that they recruit? Could Badin/Tom be held liable?
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I know nothing about P-M but for a coach to come out and say that I would think that there has to be at least some truth to it at some level. Highly doubt that P-M is going to file a lawsuit and then have themselves opened up to having to prove the allegations wrong. I just looked at the score....Badin lost by 46. At some point you may just have to admit that the other team was just better....and maybe your team had a bad day lol
 
You’re down 29-2 with no game plan in the first quarter and those are the words you throw around? Sunderman is insufferable, but unfortunately he’s been that way for years.

Private schools have the advantage of having no borders. Kids want to be a part of championship culture and want to play with other talented kids and PM allows them to do that. They’re geographically located in an area that makes it easy for students from a wide range of communities to attend. Dee - Winton Woods, Wilkins - Clark, Miller twins - Walnut Hills, Mosley - Mt. Washington, Jones - Winton Woods. How is it “out of the ordinary” for those kids to want to attend PM when realistically outside of the GGCL, it’s the closest private school to most. Culture is also a big thing in terms of the school as a whole. PM could be the best social fit for most of those kids.

Badin should be embarrassed about the comments but they’ll continue to put him on a pedestal and run the score up on bad teams setting 3 point records while up 60 until they face real competition. PM will continue to roll.
 
Northside24 said:
You’re down 29-2 with no game plan in the first quarter and those are the words you throw around? Sunderman is insufferable, but unfortunately he’s been that way for years.

Private schools have the advantage of having no borders. Kids want to be a part of championship culture and want to play with other talented kids and PM allows them to do that. They’re geographically located in an area that makes it easy for students from a wide range of communities to attend. Dee - Winton Woods, Wilkins - Clark, Miller twins - Walnut Hills, Mosley - Mt. Washington, Jones - Winton Woods. How is it “out of the ordinary” for those kids to want to attend PM when realistically outside of the GGCL, it’s the closest private school to most. Culture is also a big thing in terms of the school as a whole. PM could be the best social fit for most of those kids.

Badin should be embarrassed about the comments but they’ll continue to put him on a pedestal and run the score up on bad teams setting 3 point records while up 60 until they face real competition. PM will continue to roll.
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Truth.

Some of the privates have a massive inferiority complex that has been brought on by open borders. Their model worked well for generations, but times have changed. Kids have more opportunity and decisions than ever before, and that's a good thing.

It's not everyone else's job to come back to the pack just because certain schools refuse to adapt to a new reality. Basically, it's whiney sour grapes. These schools think they are entitled to success, and it's nauseating.

This is also coming from a guy who runs AAU programs and has no issue with how talent is put together on his own teams. All he does is whine.
 
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Northside24 said:
You’re down 29-2 with no game plan in the first quarter and those are the words you throw around? Sunderman is insufferable, but unfortunately he’s been that way for years.

Private schools have the advantage of having no borders. Kids want to be a part of championship culture and want to play with other talented kids and PM allows them to do that. They’re geographically located in an area that makes it easy for students from a wide range of communities to attend. Dee - Winton Woods, Wilkins - Clark, Miller twins - Walnut Hills, Mosley - Mt. Washington, Jones - Winton Woods. How is it “out of the ordinary” for those kids to want to attend PM when realistically outside of the GGCL, it’s the closest private school to most. Culture is also a big thing in terms of the school as a whole. PM could be the best social fit for most of those kids.

Badin should be embarrassed about the comments but they’ll continue to put him on a pedestal and run the score up on bad teams setting 3 point records while up 60 until they face real competition. PM will continue to roll.
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I feel like this is a good explanation in theory, but my issue is that this almost never happens organically. Dee didn't leave Winton Woods for the "championship culture" at Purcell, because there wasn't one at the time. The players didn't see Purcell's success on Twitter and decide that it was a great place to get an education. Their coach went out and recruited those kids. Everybody knows that. And people will justify the whole transferring thing in a million different ways (maybe rightfully so), but it's not hard to connect the dots between high school coaches with great AAU connections, an open enrollment, and a stacked roster. And Purcell isn't the only team doing it. Princeton, MND, Mason, etc. have been doing it forever.

That being said, I don't feel bad for any private school in the area, including Badin. Most of them are trying to do the exact same thing that Purcell's doing. While Sunderman may not be necessarily wrong, his comments were probably best kept to himself.
 
Doublehelix said:
Seriously coaches and fans need to get over this "cheating" and "recruiting" narrative. It's open borders, and it works both ways. Kids should have the ability to choose their school.

All of these private schools that whine about this can certainly do it themselves. Just because they choose not to doesn't mean the other schools are doing something illegal, immoral or wrong.

It also points directly at the "perception" that these private schools continue just to want people that are like them (it's not a perception, it's reality). This is proven over and over again from comments of private school coaches and fans. Stop whining about other schools recruiting diversity when you refuse to acknowledge it as a market differentiator.
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It is though? It's open borders for teams like Purcell and Badin, but not all the teams they compete against.
 
This is exactly what I'm referring to and I'm so glad the PM Principal spoke up about this. More coaches and administrators need to be saying this out loud. How some of these coaches and fans treat some of these programs for "cheating" has gone too far, and it does have a sense of racial undertone to it. These schools are doing nothing wrong. All of this "we do it with our kids" talk is 100% code for "we want kids like us".

Kudos to these leaders who have the balls to speak on this publicly.

www.wcpo.com

Purcell Marian principal on opposing coach's comments with 'racial undertones': 'Words matter tremendously'

Purcell Marian girls basketball coach Jamar Mosley responded Sunday to an opposing coach's postgame comments made after the regional final Friday night.
www.wcpo.com www.wcpo.com
 
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"We don't recruit. Do we attract kids? Maybe. Kids want to play with other good kids." That's comedy. So he's saying "we" don't recruit....meaning he or the coaches. That doesn't mean the other players or some others "connected" with the program in some way aren't. Everyone (including the OHSAA) knows how it works.....but they have shown they don't care...or realize that there's nothing they can do about it. Badin's coach sounds like a whiny kid coming out and saying it the way he did.....but we all know he's likely not wrong.
 
Doublehelix said:
This is exactly what I'm referring to and I'm so glad the PM Principal spoke up about this. More coaches and administrators need to be saying this out loud. How some of these coaches and fans treat some of these programs for "cheating" has gone too far, and it does have a sense of racial undertone to it. These schools are doing nothing wrong. All of this "we do it with our kids" talk is 100% code for "we want kids like us".

Kudos to these leaders who have the balls to speak on this publicly.

www.wcpo.com

Purcell Marian principal on opposing coach's comments with 'racial undertones': 'Words matter tremendously'

Purcell Marian girls basketball coach Jamar Mosley responded Sunday to an opposing coach's postgame comments made after the regional final Friday night.
www.wcpo.com www.wcpo.com
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The only racial undertone is because you see it. They’ve said the same things about Moeller, Deer Park, MND, W. Clermont girls and many others. Purcell is not a victim, they have been pressing and beating the drums off teams for the last 3 years. It comes with success, doesn't mean it’s racial.
 
tcgobucks said:
"We don't recruit. Do we attract kids? Maybe. Kids want to play with other good kids." That's comedy. So he's saying "we" don't recruit....meaning he or the coaches. That doesn't mean the other players or some others "connected" with the program in some way aren't. Everyone (including the OHSAA) knows how it works.....but they have shown they don't care...or realize that there's nothing they can do about it. Badin's coach sounds like a whiny kid coming out and saying it the way he did.....but we all know he's likely not wrong.
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He's very wrong.

Again, for the people that say schools "recruit", you also have to acknowledge that open borders has given kids the opportunity for choice that they didn't have in the past. It has created the opportunity for them to create the opportunities of their choosing. And sometimes they collectively take control of it. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with kids wanting to play with other good players and deciding on mutual schools.

Some of these private schools have had their cake and have eaten it to, and now that the tides are turning, they revert to the "cheater cheater pumpkin eater" approach when families have used this open opportunity to open up more successful avenues for their kids through sports. This nonsense is 100% a reaction to them losing control of their entitled place in the hierarchy, and they can't deal with it.

This new reality has literally been going on for 15+ years now, and people still whine and complain and try to diminish the success these diverse groups are having instead of holding them up on a pedestal for positive and inclusive change. It also 100% has racial undertones as it's not a coincidence that the ire of this success are almost always Balck male and female athletes. It needs to stop.
 
OkolonaBlues said:
The only racial undertone is because you see it. They’ve said the same things about Moeller, Deer Park, MND, W. Clermont girls and many others. Purcell is not a victim, they have been pressing and beating the drums off teams for the last 3 years. It comes with success, doesn't mean it’s racial.
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I didn't write the article, but the PM Principal hit the sociological part of this nail right on the head. He's 100% correct. There's obviously people with strong feelings about this in the Black community, and they should be pissed. This isn't a topic I brought - it's literally being reported in the news.

You're right, they've said the same things about the schools you mention, and in almost all of these situations, Black kids are the bullseye because people feel they are "stealing" success entitled to them. It's crap.

There is 100% an undertone of exactly what he's talking about in many suburban private schools in Cincinnati.

Everytime Elder loses to Moeller in any sport, it's nothing but "they recruit", "they cheat", "they don't do it the right way". This is just another example of the exact same thing from these predominantly White suburban schools who aren't keeping up with the changing landscape of high school sports and whining about how it's not fair. No one feels bad for the schools that have traditionally had every door opened for them and now have to actually change, adapt and get creative to get better.

Boo Hoo.
 
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Doublehelix,
Consistent success brings questions and content, not matter the skin color. Cov Cath and Highlands had the same accusations brought for years, and they’re about as Lilly white as they come.
 
OkolonaBlues said:
Doublehelix,
Consistent success brings questions and content, not matter the skin color. Cov Cath and Highlands had the same accusations brought for years, and they’re about as Lilly white as they come.
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And if you've noticed, they're not nearly as dominant anymore because kids have more choices now.

How is it ok for private schools to collect the best talent from 30+ feeder schools, but a public school can't bring in a few buddies that want to play together? The privates have had the red carpet rolled out for them, and now that they tides are shifting, they claim abuse. It's pathetic and tremendously weak.

But like I've said, all of these suburban private schools think success is an entitlement to them, and they will double down on any narrative they can to try to regain that edge. But this time, it's not working, and as more years go by, the talent shift continues.

The privates can hoard talent, but no one else can!!! Let's not act like Purcell Marian is some power player in the landscape of city sports. They're more like a public school than a suburban private.
 
tonka said:
Probably not good to come out so strong when your football coach just resigned for illegal recruiting. My guess is more will come out once the championship run is complete.
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It just pains you to the ends of the earth to give credit, doesn't it?

Can't be good, must be cheating. Again, more racial undertones. Pathetic.

White Catholic feeder kids - can band together from hundreds of schools to form super teams. Nothing to see here. Perfectly fine.

Black urban kids - stick to your school right down the street and like it!!! You're not welcome at our city-wide recruiting bonanzas. You recruit WAY LESS kids but are cheating your butts off!!!!

It's absolutely amazing what people will overlook to keep the upper hand.
 
Doublehelix said:
It just pains you to the ends of the earth to give credit, doesn't it?

Can't be good, must be cheating. Again, more racial undertones. Pathetic.

White Catholic feeder kids - can band together from hundreds of schools to form super teams. Nothing to see here. Perfectly fine.

Black urban kids - stick to your school right down the street and like it!!! You're not welcome at our city-wide recruiting bonanzas. You recruit WAY LESS kids but are cheating your butts off!!!!

It's absolutely amazing what people will overlook to keep the upper hand.
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Don’t worry Jamar. We think you’re a good coach.
 
Doublehelix said:
It just pains you to the ends of the earth to give credit, doesn't it?

Can't be good, must be cheating. Again, more racial undertones. Pathetic.

White Catholic feeder kids - can band together from hundreds of schools to form super teams. Nothing to see here. Perfectly fine.

Black urban kids - stick to your school right down the street and like it!!! You're not welcome at our city-wide recruiting bonanzas. You recruit WAY LESS kids but are cheating your butts off!!!!

It's absolutely amazing what people will overlook to keep the upper hand.
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Lol....please tell us which school has kids coming from "hundreds of schools". Don't get me wrong....I'm not one of those guys who complains about teams that have transfers, open enrollment, etc. Our small town public HS will play anyone anywhere..........but as someone who graduated from a HS that has multiple boys state championships.....and multiple final four trips by the girls......all without ONE transfer or open enrollment kid EVER you can see why some people may not be thrilled with these kind of situations right?
 
Doublehelix said:
This is exactly what I'm referring to and I'm so glad the PM Principal spoke up about this. More coaches and administrators need to be saying this out loud. How some of these coaches and fans treat some of these programs for "cheating" has gone too far, and it does have a sense of racial undertone to it. These schools are doing nothing wrong. All of this "we do it with our kids" talk is 100% code for "we want kids like us".

Kudos to these leaders who have the balls to speak on this publicly.

www.wcpo.com

Purcell Marian principal on opposing coach's comments with 'racial undertones': 'Words matter tremendously'

Purcell Marian girls basketball coach Jamar Mosley responded Sunday to an opposing coach's postgame comments made after the regional final Friday night.
www.wcpo.com www.wcpo.com
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Looks like both schools have people that should know better than to open their mouths.
 
tcgobucks said:
Lol....please tell us which school has kids coming from "hundreds of schools". Don't get me wrong....I'm not one of those guys who complains about teams that have transfers, open enrollment, etc. Our small town public HS will play anyone anywhere..........but as someone who graduated from a HS that has multiple boys state championships.....and multiple final four trips by the girls......all without ONE transfer or open enrollment kid EVER you can see why some people may not be thrilled with these kind of situations right?
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Every parochial school can recruit from anywhere they want. Their market is limitless. Completely and 100% limitless. St X probably does get kids from over one hundred schools (if not that, probably pretty close).

But we're saying it's a problem if a few buddies want to go play basketball together at Aiken (for example) because they all don't live in the 10 block radius of North College Hill? How in the world is that fair? It's crazy how good the parochials have it.
 
Doublehelix said:
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with kids wanting to play with other good players and deciding on mutual schools.
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I'll disagree with you here.

I really don't care about what happens to one kid in one program in one sport anywhere in the state.

What I do care about is the health of HS sports. Right now, HS sports is in the worst shape I've seen in my life. The recruiting and player movement is creating a noticeable downturn in the interest of HS sports. I don't see HS sports continuing much longer due to this selfish behavior.

I go back to the original idea of what HS sports was about...my school playing your school in a sport. Didn't matter what sport, it was supposed to be about the student body bringing together their best players to play against the best players from a different school. If someone wanted to start a pickle ball tournament for the kids to play, it would be alot of fun. If the OHSAA sanctioned the sport, it wouldn't take long for some coach or some fan at a school to go out and actively look for better players to make "their" school a champion.
 
Yappi said:
I'll disagree with you here.

I really don't care about what happens to one kid in one program in one sport anywhere in the state.

What I do care about is the health of HS sports. Right now, HS sports is in the worst shape I've seen in my life. The recruiting and player movement is creating a noticeable downturn in the interest of HS sports. I don't see HS sports continuing much longer due to this selfish behavior.

I go back to the original idea of what HS sports was about...my school playing your school in a sport. Didn't matter what sport, it was supposed to be about the student body bringing together their best players to play against the best players from a different school. If someone wanted to start a pickle ball tournament for the kids to play, it would be alot of fun. If the OHSAA sanctioned the sport, it wouldn't take long for some coach or some fan at a school to go out and actively look for better players to make "their" school a champion.
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That's all fine and dandy, but it isn't 1989 anymore.

Kids are more transitory than ever before. They start playing club sports as soon as 1st grade. This idea that high school is all about neighborhood kids banding together for their community are over, whether people want to accept it or not.

Kids grow up now with friends from all over the city. Why on earth would you expect them to retract that once they get to high school?
 
Doublehelix said:
That's all fine and dandy, but it isn't 1989 anymore.

Kids are more transitory than ever before. They start playing club sports as soon as 1st grade. This idea that high school is all about neighborhood kids banding together for their community are over, whether people want to accept it or not.

Kids grow up now with friends from all over the city. Why on earth would you expect them to retract that once they get to high school?
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I don't disagree with you here but I would say this is not sustainable for the health of HS sports.

An even playing field is a requirement to keep the game competitive. Yes, most of the schools have the opportunity to try and bring in better athletes to go to their school. But it is something that many administrators frown upon because it is not in the best interest of the educational environment.
 
Doublehelix said:
That's all fine and dandy, but it isn't 1989 anymore.

Kids are more transitory than ever before. They start playing club sports as soon as 1st grade. This idea that high school is all about neighborhood kids banding together for their community are over, whether people want to accept it or not.

Kids grow up now with friends from all over the city. Why on earth would you expect them to retract that once they get to high school?
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Is this a good thing? Students, players and families typically thrive in communities that are banded together. In my experience, it's nearly universal thought that club sports (like AAU) have had a negative effect on the sport and the overall development of players. Now, many high schools are looking more and more like club teams. I worry about the long term effect that has on high school sports in general.
 
A little more context here about the Badin program. Their CB number is 21. That means they had at least 3 kids on their team last year that did not come from their “district” or go to parochial school their whole life. Their coach runs an aau program and a lot of his staff over the years have coached in that program. They have had several transfers in his 16 years as the head coach, including a starter this year, who played her freshman year at Fairfield.

Badin has aggressively been selling their school for the last 8-10 years. Their enrollment is up. Surrounding schools are not real happy with what they have been doing as an entire school. In fact, this is why Ross dropped them in all sports. They accused Badin of having coaches at Ross junior high games. When Badin did nothing to address this, Ross dropped them in all sports. How many "transfers" are on the Badin football and baseball teams? They had such a high CB number in baseball one year, they went from d3 to d1. Sunderman may have opened a door that Badin would have preferred not to be opened.

Their head coach, Tom Sunderman, is notorious for telling refs that they will never ref one of his games in the summer if they keep making calls like that against Badin. He has also went in to the officials locker room on at least two occasions after games to scream at them. He went after an official after a game last year, or two years ago, at a game with eastern Ohio officials at a shootout. They said they would never invite Badin back again. He is out of control. And the Badin AD was on his staff for probably 6-8 years and witnessed most of this first hand and has never done anything to discipline this coach. Badin promotes this kind of behavior by allowing it to continue without any consequences.

With all that said, all problems will be solved next year when we move to 7 divisions. Sarcasm.

Purcell is actually the school leading the charge to be able to move up to d1 if you want to compete at that level. I assumed they would move up next year. They may reconsider now to stay in d4 just to beat Badin. Will be a very interesting decision.
 
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