Have not seen anything from OHSAA but I’m thinking if “regular fans” are not permitted there will be some type of live stream offered.
Elder Basketball 2020-2021
- Thread starter vanman396
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Have not seen anything from OHSAA but I’m thinking if “regular fans” are not permitted there will be some type of live stream offered.
I see Moeller has another cakewalk to the Regional bracket again. There is not a team in there that will give them a scare. At some point someone has to challenge them as all they’re doing is making it a much tougher tournament outside their bracket. They are literally rolling out the red carpet for them - newsflash, only one of the rest will be left IF you even make it that far. I’m sure Uncle Carl is laughing as we speak knowing he got away with it again. They literally play a 4 game tournament every year while everyone else has to bring it at game 2-3.
Southwest One seems to be the most wide open. Centerville, Fairfield, West, Walnut Hills or Mason could all win that District. The fear in Moellers bracket has created an ultra competitive region here.
Southwest 2 will be Elder, East or winner of Ham/Princeton.
Southwest 4 will be X, Turpin or Wayne.
Southwest One seems to be the most wide open. Centerville, Fairfield, West, Walnut Hills or Mason could all win that District. The fear in Moellers bracket has created an ultra competitive region here.
Southwest 2 will be Elder, East or winner of Ham/Princeton.
Southwest 4 will be X, Turpin or Wayne.
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PURPLE REIGN
Well-known member
Shouldn't Moeller be rewarded for being the #1 seed?
If you have <1% chance of beating Moe and <50% chance of beating someone else, the math says choose the easier route and allow your kids to play more games. Extend the season. It's worked for mediocre Elder teams the past few years. They finish around 500 and get a 12-14 seed. Choose a 2nd place FAVC, or 3rd place GMC team to beat in the early rounds and we all says "its a success."
What team should have chosen to play Moe early instead of their current path?
Sure they should. But everyone else is giving them an even easier path by not challenging them.
It’s likely you’re going to have to beat Moeller to win the region at some point. If that’s true, does it make sense to have to play 2-3 very tough games before you even get there? And that’s assuming you win those games. Only one other team will make it to the Regional Finals.
So all everyone is doing is making it harder for themselves to even get there. And easier for Moeller.
Everyone does all this to avoid Moeller yet the last one standing (which will only be one team) will still have to face Moeller?
While Moe goes on vacation until the Regional semis.
Is the objective to win the region or play more games? If it’s to win the region, jump in their bracket. The region is going to go through them anyway.
If you have a team good enough to win the regional (probably a handful) and you avoid Moe on purpose, all you’re doing is making it harder to get to Moe. IMO, it makes no sense for the other regional contenders to avoid them.
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You can almost tell that everyone’s main objective is to avoid Moe. If everyone is doing that, it’s a really dumb strategy to dethrone Moe.
If the objective is to just play more games, then fine, but that’s pretty lame, especially for teams good enough to potentially beat them.
Everyone complains about their antics, but then bows down to them every year in the draw. And they walk to the regionals. It doesn’t make much sense to me.
If the objective is to just play more games, then fine, but that’s pretty lame, especially for teams good enough to potentially beat them.
Everyone complains about their antics, but then bows down to them every year in the draw. And they walk to the regionals. It doesn’t make much sense to me.
Elder would have to beat Princeton/Hamilton, Lakota East, and likely Centerville to even get to Moe. All 3 of those games are coin flips.
The odds of getting to Moe are very slim.
In comparison, to get to the same game, Moe has to beat Wayne/X. All their other games are virtual lock wins.
Everyone else has to run the gauntlet to even get there as well.
Uncle Carl should be sending Christmas cards every year.
The odds of getting to Moe are very slim.
In comparison, to get to the same game, Moe has to beat Wayne/X. All their other games are virtual lock wins.
Everyone else has to run the gauntlet to even get there as well.
Uncle Carl should be sending Christmas cards every year.
Makes sense if you’re just trying to extend the season. Makes zero sense if you’re trying to get to the Final Four.
adselder09
Well-known member
Just so we're clear, are you advocating for Elder to jump in Moeller's bracket because they'll "have to see them sometime."
Not just Elder - any team capable of beating them.
Am I wrong with this one? Seems to severely weaken their bracket and makes the other ones more difficult.
At a minimum, it evens out the brackets. Moeller has had a cakewalk the last three years because everyone avoids only them.
Yes, they should get #1 seed treatment, but this seems unbalanced. But you can’t blame anyone because the other schools did it to themselves.
Just seems odd - the team you’re trying to avoid the most is the team you’re handing the easiest path to. It would seem to increase their odds of getting there and decreasing yours as the better teams are all outside of their bracket.
Am I wrong with this one? Seems to severely weaken their bracket and makes the other ones more difficult.
At a minimum, it evens out the brackets. Moeller has had a cakewalk the last three years because everyone avoids only them.
Yes, they should get #1 seed treatment, but this seems unbalanced. But you can’t blame anyone because the other schools did it to themselves.
Just seems odd - the team you’re trying to avoid the most is the team you’re handing the easiest path to. It would seem to increase their odds of getting there and decreasing yours as the better teams are all outside of their bracket.
Apparently you are wrong on this one. Moeller continues to be #1 seed and other Schools keep avoiding “jumping in” the same bracket as Moeller. I totally get what your saying but apparently the others Schools are not interested in the Moeller bracket “route.” These Schools repeatedly do this so I’m thinking they are comfortable with their “philosophy.” Wonder how many Coaches maybe interested in what you are saying but their ADs are not.
Philly_Cat
Well-known member
If you are the only one, then yes it doesn't work, but you do give yourself an almost guaranteed spot to play for a district title. If everyone plays to not worry about Moeller than the entire SWO tournament becomes easier as a whole.
Solution? Get rid of this silly draw and seat the teams according to seeding. That way of seating inherently always gives the higher seed the easier route. Because of how ever team that believes they have even a sniff of a chance at beating Moeller stays away from them, all those teams hand the advantage of their seed over to Moeller, making Moeller rich on advantage by just showing up.
Again, seat the teams by seed. I've lived in SWO now for a decade now and still don't understand why it's done by a draw.
This is exactly how I was thinking about it. Why not just create the bracket from the seeding and play it out?
They already have the coaches seed the teams, which could involve some bias, although I do think they usually do a good job of seeding. But then On top of that, they have the draw which seems to have some unintended consequences of unbalanced brackets.
I get that most schools are looking out for themselves, as they should, but when everyone does that, it opens up easy street for Moe.
Philly_Cat
Well-known member
Philly_Cat
Well-known member
Matchups out to District Championships if all top seeds won. Every sectional championship (potentially) has a great game, including not just the Moeller game, but also the sectional paired up with Moeller's sectional which would normally be 2 low seeded teams because of everyone avoiding Moeller.
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adselder09
Well-known member
Only problem with your theory, of the teams in the SWO bracket who has beaten Moeller or come close to beating Moeller in the last 3 years and of those teams, how many were also top 5 seeds in Cincinnati or top 3 seeds in Dayton, thus allowing them to have their own bracket?
Additionally, here's a counter argument for your idea - what happens when Moeller loses before the Regional Tournament, but your team jumped into their bracket early and lost in the Sectional Round? It's rare but has happened before. If you have a team that can make it to the Regional, then you should choose the best route for your team to get there. Then this year there's Covid, which can shut a team down at any moment. It'd be silly for an Elder, an East or a Turpin to jump in with Moeller, especially this year.
More than one school would have to be on board. If it’s just one school, then they just go in and likely lose to Moeller. And then Moe carries on with their weak bracket.
But if Moe had to play multiple tough games in the Sectional and District finals, their path becomes just as difficult.
I just find it odd that the other coaches would continue just to completely set up the bracket for them just to avoid them.
Like I said, only one other team will make the regional finals. And getting there against all of the other good teams is way less likely than beating Moeller on any given day.
Do they really think beating 3-4 good teams is more likely than beating Moeller once? Because they all have the same strategy.
But if Moe had to play multiple tough games in the Sectional and District finals, their path becomes just as difficult.
I just find it odd that the other coaches would continue just to completely set up the bracket for them just to avoid them.
Like I said, only one other team will make the regional finals. And getting there against all of the other good teams is way less likely than beating Moeller on any given day.
Do they really think beating 3-4 good teams is more likely than beating Moeller once? Because they all have the same strategy.
Philly_Cat
Well-known member
So I made some changes. Fixed a small mistake in the Lakota East bracket. I also moved the Dayton brackets around. After some thought, I saw Cincinnati and Dayton playing each other as an advantage to the better team due to them having a better chance of not being familiar with each other. So I gave the advantages to the higher seeds of each side.
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adselder09
Well-known member
Based on the number of times Moeller has been beaten in the region in the last several years, your assumption is wrong. It would be easier to beat 3-4 good teams in a row than beating Moeller once.
You’re telling me it would be easier for Elder to beat Hamilton/Princeton, Lakota West, and Centerville in consecutive games than it would be for them to beat Moe once? No way.
The statistics just don’t bear that out. All 3 of those games for Elder are pretty close to coin flips. It’s much easier to guess heads once (50% chance) than it is to guess heads three times in a row (13%).
I know that’s not apples to apples as skill is involved, but it’s a similar concept. I’d love to see a statistical analysis of teams to make the regional final under the current concept and under Phillys model.
Phillys model would undoubtedly level the playing field more for everyone. It’s an interesting debate.
Philly_Cat
Well-known member
Ok I SWEAR this is the last version. After staring at it for a while I realized I really messed up the seating for Dayton. Now it is perfect! ?
My take on the seeded version is Moeller still has a fairly easy road to a district championship that they would be favored in. It is slightly more difficult though. The biggest difference is a little more of a relief for the rest of the tournament bracket. By moving tougher matchups like LaSalle and Lakota West out of that pool and in to challenge Moeller earlier.
My take on the seeded version is Moeller still has a fairly easy road to a district championship that they would be favored in. It is slightly more difficult though. The biggest difference is a little more of a relief for the rest of the tournament bracket. By moving tougher matchups like LaSalle and Lakota West out of that pool and in to challenge Moeller earlier.
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Philly_Cat
Well-known member
Philly_Cat
Well-known member
From a fairly quick glance, the top 5 seeds all took their respective brackets. But after that, not counting Moeller, Lakota East surprisingly was given the most respect by the top seeds. Then it was X, followed by Elder, with Fairfield being the team that no one seemed to be scared of.
adselder09
Well-known member
If it were that easy wouldn't more teams choose to do it that way? Additionally, the draw is done by seeding - so Moeller gets 1st choice, then St X, then Elder etc.
So you're honestly saying X, Elder, Fairfield or East - with a mostly blank bracket - should choose to jump in with Moeller? This isn't something where a team sees their draw and says, no thanks I'd rather go in with Moeller. The whole argument you're making is based on seeing the finished bracket and complaining about it in hindsight.
My whole argument is based on everyone having the same thought process of avoiding Moeller thus giving Moeller a cakewalk draw until the Regional bracket.
If that’s a consequence of the draw, should it really be done that way? It gives an enormous advantage to Moe.
The only way to avoid it is for teams to decide to jump in with Moe or get rid of the draw. Otherwise, you’re literally handing them District titles every year.
If that’s a consequence of the draw, should it really be done that way? It gives an enormous advantage to Moe.
The only way to avoid it is for teams to decide to jump in with Moe or get rid of the draw. Otherwise, you’re literally handing them District titles every year.
You can tell by the bracket that everyone tried to avoid them. Everyone.
When that happens, you just increased their already significant advantage of the #1 seed. You’ve made the most powerful team more powerful - no doubt.
Just because everyone does it doesn’t mean it’s the smartest route to take. It’s pretty dumb if you ask me.
When that happens, you just increased their already significant advantage of the #1 seed. You’ve made the most powerful team more powerful - no doubt.
Just because everyone does it doesn’t mean it’s the smartest route to take. It’s pretty dumb if you ask me.
What part of this is every Schools decision don’t you understand? Your not really this slow, are you?
Why the attitude?
I get that obviously. Individually, it’s fine, but it creates a collective consequence.
If the coaches want to continue to operate this way, that’s on them. But they are without a doubt making their own brackets harder. That seems dumb.
You can acknowledge the current process and think it’s dumb at the same time. A few of you are trying to bait me into saying Elders decision is dumb, which I don’t understand.
Its not about any schools personal choice, it’s about a dumb process that can collectively hurt them as it plays out. How you can’t understand that is beyond me.
I get that obviously. Individually, it’s fine, but it creates a collective consequence.
If the coaches want to continue to operate this way, that’s on them. But they are without a doubt making their own brackets harder. That seems dumb.
You can acknowledge the current process and think it’s dumb at the same time. A few of you are trying to bait me into saying Elders decision is dumb, which I don’t understand.
Its not about any schools personal choice, it’s about a dumb process that can collectively hurt them as it plays out. How you can’t understand that is beyond me.
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