The Great Unraveling

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lotr10

Well-known member
I'm worried about the current American divide getting so wide that civil war will follow. I know this sounds delusional to those not paying attention but history is littered with examples of civil wars erupting in societies as divided as ours. Or put differently, we show all the symptoms.

So I came across this compelling article and it made me think and reconsider my own personal role in stoking the great divide. I think it's a must read for anyone worried about the state of affairs.

bariweiss.substack.com

The Great Unraveling

The old order is dead. What comes next?
bariweiss.substack.com bariweiss.substack.com

The article quotes a German, Heinrich Heine, who in the early 19th century predicted the horrors of Germany in the 20th century. I think it also applies to us:

“Do not laugh at one who foresees in the region of the visible the revolution that has already occurred in the invisible domain of the spirit. Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder.”

Lets discuss and try to be civil about it.
 
 
A couple of more quotes from this compelling article:

Hate sells, as the journalist Matt Taibbi has convincingly argued, and as anyone looking at Twitter trending topics over the past few years can see. If Americans are buying rage, is there a real market for something that resists it?

Hate sells and hate also connects. Communities can grow quite strong around hatred of difference, and that’s exactly what’s happened to the American left and the right. It is painful to resist joining a mob when that mob includes most of your friends. It feels good, at least in the short term, to give in.

And this seem spot on:

The metaphor of the unraveling is true enough, but it fails to capture the takeover and the unimaginable strength of the new powers that have superseded the old ones. My friend David Samuels has dubbed it the age of the machines and I think that gets it right.

“The machines ate us,” he wrote in Tablet last month. “We are all sick with the same disease, which is being pumped through our veins by the agents of a monopolistic oligarchy — whether they present themselves as the owners of large technology companies, or as the professional classes that are dependent on those companies for their declining wealth and status, or as identity politics campaigners, or security bureaucrats. The places where these vectors converge make up the new ideology, which is regulated by machines; the places outside this discourse are figured as threats, and made to disappear from screens and search results, using the same technologies that they use in China.”
 
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And maybe a call to personal action:

I think David’s advice is wise: “The good news is that the most important events of my life, and your life, will always take place more or less within a 25-foot radius of wherever we are standing. Like the Beatles said, all you need is love. So, try to be kind, and avoid making sweeping statements about large classes of people. Give food to the hungry. Tell your children that you love them. And please, whatever you do, don’t embrace anyone’s sweeping program for remedying historical injustice, because history’s victims are already dead—and soon, there will be plenty more of them. I can hear the sound of the engines revving up, even from here.”
 
chs1971 said:
Democrats seem fairly intent on teaching 74 million people a lesson.

That will not go as well as they believe.

Our enemies, both foreign and domestics watch gleefully.
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For sure the venom in which some on the left are going after Trump and his people is eye opening. Calls to impeach Trump, who will be gone in a week, comes across as spiteful. Even worse are the calls to hurt those that supported Trump.

I understand the lefts desire to spike the football in our faces. In some ways they've earned that right. But what we see now is way beyond that. It's the vindictive pursuit of vengeance in its basest form. This will not end well if they don't back off.
 
I think the most disheartening thing to me, as I have mostly stayed in my lane for most of my 60 years, is the absolute superiority I hear from the Democratic side. If you believe in a conservative viewpoint one has to be the most uneducated, red neck hillbilly that ever lived. It is sometimes pointed out subtly and sometimes blatant but it is always there. When in fact I'm pretty much middle of the road on most issues. I agree it is gonna be difficult to walk back from all that has been said/printed/done on both sides.
 
so far, in this thread, I see no eye opening. So far, in this thread, it is "blame the left." I, for one, see no chance for a civil war. who am I going to shoot? My two daughters? i don't think so. Is my wife going to shoot me?? (maybe, but for other reasons).

If you want to see peace, it has to start with you. It has to start with forgiveness. (the problem for me is I don't think I'm quite ready to forgive the left). And there I go, not practicing what needs to happen.
 
GCPRO said:
I think the most disheartening thing to me, as I have mostly stayed in my lane for most of my 60 years, is the absolute superiority I hear from the Democratic side. If you believe in a conservative viewpoint one has to be the most uneducated, red neck hillbilly that ever lived. It is sometimes pointed out subtly and sometimes blatant but it is always there. When in fact I'm pretty much middle of the road on most issues. I agree it is gonna be difficult to walk back from all that has been said/printed/done on both sides.
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I agree.

While our side can be guilty of this to as we all to easily call them "communists" or "moon bats" they have the cultural tools backing them so there has been an unrelenting anti-conservative message articulated by the mass media.

There has been a continuous effort to "other" and dehumanize us. It's actually striking to see.
 
lotr10 said:
I agree.

While our side can be guilty of this to as we all to easily call them "communists" or "moon bats" they have the cultural tools backing them so there has been an unrelenting anti-conservative message articulated by the mass media.

There has been a continuous effort to "other" and dehumanize us. It's actually striking to see.
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Says the Birther party. Potus started with a big lie and ended with a big lie, with several thousand lies in between, and including his entire fraudulent life. Is what it is.
 
GCPRO said:
I think the most disheartening thing to me, as I have mostly stayed in my lane for most of my 60 years, is the absolute superiority I hear from the Democratic side. If you believe in a conservative viewpoint one has to be the most uneducated, red neck hillbilly that ever lived. It is sometimes pointed out subtly and sometimes blatant but it is always there. When in fact I'm pretty much middle of the road on most issues. I agree it is gonna be difficult to walk back from all that has been said/printed/done on both sides.
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It has nothing to do with conservative fiscal viewpoints. I have no issue with smaller government, lower taxes, and balanced budgets. You get into trouble when you start telling people how to live their life like who they can marry or prayer in public school. It gets further problematic when you add the danger of extreme nationalism with all that comes with it.
 
toledomansfield said:
so far, in this thread, I see no eye opening. So far, in this thread, it is "blame the left." I, for one, see no chance for a civil war. who am I going to shoot? My two daughters? i don't think so. Is my wife going to shoot me?? (maybe, but for other reasons).

If you want to see peace, it has to start with you. It has to start with forgiveness. (the problem for me is I don't think I'm quite ready to forgive the left). And there I go, not practicing what needs to happen.
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Fair points.

The truth is that we are deeply divided and I'm not going to change my core beliefs in exchange for peace. And if I'm attacked I'll fight back.

What I hope America can do is move towards accommodation or tolerance towards each others different viewpoints. Sort of how we treat matters of taste. I don't need to hate someone who likes different music, movies, food or other things.

And while this might be biased on my part the onus is more on the left as they seem to demand more control over individual actions. The modern right seems more comfortable with letting people live their lives as they want as long as it doesn't directly threaten them. I guess it's the libertarian streak that is stronger in the right then the left today.
 
toledomansfield said:
If you want to see peace, it has to start with you. It has to start with forgiveness. (the problem for me is I don't think I'm quite ready to forgive the left). And there I go, not practicing what needs to happen.
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I cannot forgive people who support anarchists, communists, and others who want to destroy our nation.

There can be no compromise.
 
ProV1 said:
It has nothing to do with conservative fiscal viewpoints. I have no issue with smaller government, lower taxes, and balanced budgets. You get into trouble when you start telling people how to live their life like who they can marry or prayer in public school. It gets further problematic when you add the danger of extreme nationalism with all that comes with it.
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And here's the core problem. I see your side as being far more intrusive in demanding how people live their lives.

You have created a litany of damning language such as "extreme nationalism", "racism", and a host of other "isms" to define what you consider unacceptable behavior. But even worse you've extended this beyond behavior to include thought.

I may be oversimplifying things here but if we believe differently then you it's seen as a threat that must be stamped out.
 
GCPRO said:
I think the most disheartening thing to me, as I have mostly stayed in my lane for most of my 60 years, is the absolute superiority I hear from the Democratic side. If you believe in a conservative viewpoint one has to be the most uneducated, red neck hillbilly that ever lived. It is sometimes pointed out subtly and sometimes blatant but it is always there. When in fact I'm pretty much middle of the road on most issues. I agree it is gonna be difficult to walk back from all that has been said/printed/done on both sides.
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FWIW, I think this has clearly accelerated with Trump. The standard GOP positions were pretty easy to define: lower taxes, smaller government, free markets, etc. with some right-leaning Christian ideology thrown in to solidify their base. Now, it's not entirely clear what the "average" Trump supporter believes in beyond Trump himself and "MAGA" (whatever that means will vary).

I also don't think this is a problem unique to the Democrats. Common tropes used by GOP groups to define anybody who supports Democrats include "communists" and "welfare queens."
 
ProV1 said:
It has nothing to do with conservative fiscal viewpoints.
I have no issue with smaller government, lower taxes, and balanced budgets.
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You can't Say Lower Taxes = Democratic Agenda

You can't Say Balance Budgets = Democratic Policy

You can't Say Smaller Gov't = Democratic Party Wants

The Democratic Socialist party isn't Close to Conservative Views
 
lotr10 said:
And here's the core problem. I see your side as being far more intrusive in demanding how people live their lives.

You have created a litany of damning language such as "extreme nationalism", "racism", and a host of other "isms" to define what you consider unacceptable behavior. But even worse you've extended this beyond behavior to include thought.

I may be oversimplifying things here but if we believe differently then you it's seen as a threat that must be stamped out.
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Exactly how is democratic social policy more intrusive? The whole religious freedom argument is really more about exerting beliefs on others than any freedom argument.
 
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chs1971 said:
I cannot forgive people who support anarchists, communists, and others who want to destroy our nation.

There can be no compromise.
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That's fair and frankly we don't need to, or have to, forgive anybody. I think most of them are holes.

What I think we have to do is live together in wide spectrum civility. That is, if I believe something that is counter to current conventional wisdom my job or reputation should not be at risk. We already have a constitution that elucidates our rights so lets use it.

I believe we can have our cake and eat it to here. We can all enjoy living in a free, prosperous and relatively safe nation. And we don't even have to like each other to do it.
 
Defecating on the floor of our Capital Building seems bad.

Not accepting the results of election and marching to stop the certification seems bad.

Using violence to threaten our leaders seems bad.

This is not about politics or positions it is about common decency and the basics needed to have a democracy for the the people.

A large portion of the GOP and Base have lost their way.
 
ProV1 said:
It has nothing to do with conservative fiscal viewpoints. I have no issue with smaller government, lower taxes, and balanced budgets. You get into trouble when you start telling people how to live their life like who they can marry or prayer in public school. It gets further problematic when you add the danger of extreme nationalism with all that comes with it.
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nationalism
[ˈnaSH(ə)nəˌlizəm]

NOUN
  1. patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.
    synonyms:
    separatism · secessionism · partitionism · isolationism · sectarianism
    • an extreme form of this, especially marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.
    • advocacy of political independence for a particular country.
"Extreme" seem extreme.

Nationalism is good. I believe America is better than any other county on this planet. The US has done more for the rest of the world than any other county in the world. We should take a back seat to no one.
 
ProV1 said:
Exactly how is democratic social policy more intrusive? The whole religious freedom argument is really more about exerting beliefs on others than any freedom argument.
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If it punishes people for believing in things that are outside it's structure democrat social policy can be very intrusive. If we don't embrace live and let live we will break up.

ProV, people can lose their jobs over not using the approved gender designations. To much of what you call social policy comes across as political correctness to us.
 
2manyBats said:
I Agree ... So Lets Vote the Democrats Out in 2022 and 2024
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Will we get a election with out fraud and cheating just asking for a friend? I look at all Trump got accomplished in four years with out much help from either party and it kind of scares me what the D's could do in the next two years.
 
Happygoluckky said:
Defecating on the floor of our Capital Building seems bad.

Not accepting the results of election and marching to stop the certification seems bad.

Using violence to threaten our leaders seems bad.

This is not about politics or positions it is about common decency and the basics needed to have a democracy for the the people.

A large portion of the GOP and Base have lost their way.
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Do you really see the world this way? Do I have to throw out a long list of terrible things democrats and the left have done as a response to your list? I can match EVERYTHING you listed and then multiply it by a factor of 10. But where does that get us?

Do you have any idea what that article was saying? Do you not see the threat facing America?
 
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