I agree that it makes enrollment less predictive, but it’s still predictive.
2020 Competitive Balance In Ohio High School Football
- Thread starter radiodaveagain
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I agree that it makes enrollment less predictive, but it’s still predictive.
Scheduling up isn't always as easy as everyone makes it out to be.
zeeman
Well-known member
We could just let Massillon win ??
Stirred not Shaken
Well-known member
Won't happen but just go back to 6 divisions.
Stirred not Shaken
Well-known member
My point was if New Bremen who did not win a game as recently as 5 or 6 years ago, def. LCC, ML on their way to a state championship this season, their is no reason why other small schools cannot compete with ML. CW, or Kirtland. Personally I could care less what division they put ML in but no school should be forced to move up a division just because their successful, it is time for other small schools to step up their game like New Bremen did.
If enrollment isn’t predictive, how is moving up a division more of a challenge? If the lower six divisions are split up by arbitrary numbers, as you say, shouldn’t D7 be just as difficult as D2?
Pat_from_Toledo
New member
How do the kids that have multiple transfers (like MW) have kids that play all year without sitting out? They can’t be open enrollment because they would technically have to sit. Sorry, it still amazes me how kids just show up at these schools. Without any kind of “talking” to by anyone.
Ohiofootball80
Active member
Why don’t we just throw Alabama in the NFL? Stupidest thing I’ve ever heard, move a school up because they win. Hoban vs Clemson next year is gonna be lit. I’ve had it marked on my calendar for months! If they get by Clemson, we’ll see what they got vs the Patriots next season
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jfootball9
Member
I don’t think it matters what division Hoban is in, they are still going to dominate other teams and they are still going to be one of the best teams (if not THE best team) in any division you put them in. We all know that they are fully capable of beating some of the better teams in division 1, so moving them up wouldn’t be a punishment at all- it probably wouldn’t even faze them. In the last few years, they’ve had no problem beating every powerhouse team in NE Ohio (Iggy, Ed’s, McKinley, Massillon) at least once. It looked to me like they were having trouble filling up their schedule this year, probably because no one wanted to play them (who wants the guaranteed loss?). They play more like a college team rather than a high school team and they’re just a “different animal”. Period.
4GX
Well-known member
Yeah– because Alabama plays with the same ages of players as the NFL, and by the same rules, regulated by the same authority as the NFL—NOT; because Hoban plays with the same ages of players as Clemson, and by the same rules, regulated by the same authority as Clemson—NOT; talk about stupid ideas— you’ve really topped them all... but it‘s good to know that you see the gulf in level of play between your beloved almighty. all-conquering MAC’s Division VI and VII teams and, say Division V as equal to the huge gap between Hoban and Clemson.
Ohiofootball80
Active member
Not at all. The MAC is awesome and if they work hard enough to win, then maybe more teams should. Why throw them up in divisions to where maybe a bigger school could beat them just because they got more kids and take away the hard work that they put in to win a championship in their division? Thats kind of like punishing kids for putting forth the effort needed to succeed. I’m not one of the participation trophy guys like you are. If these other schools get tired of the MAC winning then do something about it instead of wanting to put them in another division. Idc if Marion Local or Coldwater win the next 50, I’d never want to throw them up in a division they don’t belong in just because they do what it takes. Sounds to me whoever thought of that idea is a fan of a school that has been getting some MAC beat downs, K-land beat downs or Hoban beat downs. All these successful schools seem to have one thing in common. They have great work ethic and the coaches are allowed to coach. Is it the MAC’s fault they work hard and kids are allowed to be coached instead of having kids in other areas playing call of duty 24/7 while the parents complain of reasons why their little johnny shouldn’t be coached that way? Glad you been paying enough attention to know I’m a MAC guy. Best conference there is.
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Thavoice
Well-known member
I
I concur. Minster, ft rec and NB all had train wreck seasons, same with can wert, not too long prior to their titles.
4GX
Well-known member
Well, you’ve obviously NOT been paying enough attention to know that I’m a fan (and alum) of a school that just won the only championship in an “unlimited” division in Ohio HS football-- by the largest victory margin in Ohio HS playoff championship game history. lf your favored schools are so good, come on up and play the ”real” champions of Ohio HS football— ’cause I’m NOT a fan of the six “participation trophies“ that are being handed out every year in all these incredibly narrow divisions of football that the OHSAA has created over the last ~30 yeare of ever-increasing numbers of classes of football playoffs... in fact, that would be great for us— because it’s gotten to the point where no one in-state wants to play my school anymore— so my school’s been forced to seek games out of state (and even from Canadian “select” teams)— a bit like St. Frances of Baltimore, in that HBO series “The Cost of Winning”...
There are some people, in other states (e.g.- Indiana and Kentucky), who believe that their states don’t even really HOLD true championships in basketball anymore— because they no longer hold their state playoffs in one single class (as they did for many decades)... when Bobby Plump and Milan HS (enrollment 161) won the state basketball title in Indiana in 1954 (chronicled in the film “Hoosiers”) — defeating a very large Indiana HS (Muncie Central— enrollment 1662)— THAT was a REAL Indiana state HS championship! I’m not insisting on that level of ”purity”— but Ohio’s never really had that kind of setup in football (or basketball)— there have ALWAYS been at least 3 divisions of Ohio HS playoffs in football— and basketball, as far back as I can recall, has always had at least 2 divisions— so Ohio HS sports fans have been kind of spoiled from the get-go, with multiple divisions awarding championships to some schools, just for being smaller...
I’m with Yappi on this one— the competitive balance program has been in place in Ohio HS football since its inception in 1972— with the creation of the two (now six) lower divisions of play— those “competitive balance” preserves, to give smaller schools an enhanced chance to win a championship (by limiting the competition that they are permitted to face) should be phased out, on a case-by-case basis, as various smaller schools demonstrate their proficiency—and the fact that they no longer need that special preserve of limited competition, to be successful— move them up, when they show they have what it takes to be successful in open competition— and, if they fall back, and can NOT cut it in the open division, then they can be moved back down to play in the special preserves of the lower divisions. As I’ve already said— that’s NOT punishment— that’s REWARD— for doing well— now, you get to challenge yourself in OPEN competition— Surely, someone who doesn‘t favor participation trophies can understand (and support) THAT!
Enrollment has a certain degree of predictive value, especially in a sport like football where numbers plays such a significant role.
School has 200 males per grade (puts it in the lower end of D1), it's certainly easier to get a player pool of kids where virtually nobody plays two ways compared to 40 males per grade (which would be on the D6/D7 line, I think). Yes, this example is extreme, but I hope illustrative.
If schools are able to increase the portion of the male enrollment that plays sports (football), and is able to do so at a starting player ability level, they can compete "above their weight". There are public and private schools that are able to do this. The argument for competitive balance proposals (whether it's just via multiplier, or the way OHSAA does it) is that private schools have a greater capacity to do what was described in the first sentence in this paragraph, since their potential enrollment base is larger/different than a public school.
Just using Hoban, they have a male enrollment of 324, which is 108 males per grade using the OHSAA count rule. Their 108 males per grade is clearly different than the 107 males per grade that Bellbrook has - in terms of competing in sports.
In a sport like basketball, enrollment is much less predictive indicator than for football. Only five people play at a time, at most 7 or 8 are ever on the court for meaningful minutes, and the impact of one or two players can be so much greater. This of course excludes the "AAU type free agency" that exists within the high school game at BOTH public and private schools across the state.
School has 200 males per grade (puts it in the lower end of D1), it's certainly easier to get a player pool of kids where virtually nobody plays two ways compared to 40 males per grade (which would be on the D6/D7 line, I think). Yes, this example is extreme, but I hope illustrative.
If schools are able to increase the portion of the male enrollment that plays sports (football), and is able to do so at a starting player ability level, they can compete "above their weight". There are public and private schools that are able to do this. The argument for competitive balance proposals (whether it's just via multiplier, or the way OHSAA does it) is that private schools have a greater capacity to do what was described in the first sentence in this paragraph, since their potential enrollment base is larger/different than a public school.
Just using Hoban, they have a male enrollment of 324, which is 108 males per grade using the OHSAA count rule. Their 108 males per grade is clearly different than the 107 males per grade that Bellbrook has - in terms of competing in sports.
In a sport like basketball, enrollment is much less predictive indicator than for football. Only five people play at a time, at most 7 or 8 are ever on the court for meaningful minutes, and the impact of one or two players can be so much greater. This of course excludes the "AAU type free agency" that exists within the high school game at BOTH public and private schools across the state.
Ohiofootball80
Active member
You must be the parent of that little Johnny I was referring to. If you want a school that has 200 kids to play a ”real champion school” that has 1500 kids. That’s like putting Hoban against Clemson that I mentioned earlier That you disagreed with. Your ignorance on every thread I see you comment on never ceases to amaze me. I’m assuming it’s St. X you are referring to. Hoban would smash them. If Hoban was in your “real division” you’d be a fan of more divisions because St. X wouldn’t have that trophy. To add more to this, if those MAC schools were as big and pulled kids in from anywhere like X does, with the way they play and work, I’d take them over your X team any day of the week
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The spread between V and VII is extremely minimal compared to upper divisions. Would reconfiguring divisions based on a % spread instead of equal number of teams be considered punishment? Just curious. Personally I feel like MAC and Kirtland should be playing each other. That would be 10x more exciting and competitive than we have now, and minimal difference between top teams in all 3. I know I'll be called a small school hater but I'd make the lowest division around 200 and below then recalculate up from there. With slightly less emphasis on equal # of teams. JMO.
(most dominant programs for comparison purposes: D5 Kirtland 166, D6 Coldwater 152, D7 MSML 107).
Ohiofootball80
Active member
I’d love to see MAC and K-land playing each other but as far as moving each one up if they win then no. K-land has 3 in a row. do I think they should go to D4? Nope. I think some posters are on the receiving end of their beat downs is what I think...and the funny thing about that is that K-land would have more competition in D6 than what they have now in D5. I think the D5 teams just need to step up their game like these other small great teams do. If k-land and most all of the MAC do it, there’s no reason whatsoever why the rest of them can’t. It all comes down to how bad you want it and the effort you put forth to achieve it and that’s why I call it punishment. Does the football fairy wave it’s wand over k-land and the MAC teams each year or do they work for it and go get it?
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Stirred not Shaken
Well-known member
Yes the football fairy mistook New Bremen for Marion Local thus the Cards won state.
Ohiofootball80
Active member
Even the football fairy makes mistakes every now and then. The fairy has made a few mistakes in the MAC. You never know which team will be next
big medicine
Active member
Interesting proposal. On the same vain would schools be open to using a % of schools per region qualify for playoffs also ? Say having only 6 teams qualify per region in D1 versus 12 in the small school divisions ?
Really? I hear every year how LaSalle or Hoban could beat the D1 champ.
Ohiofootball80
Active member
There is no question Hoban would. You put St. X vs Hoban and that trophy is going back to Akron
Understood. I remember Ursuline and Mooney at one point also. Clearly harder to classify by enrollment. X has 1400 boys Hoban 322. You can’t make sense of that. If privates were separated you’d only need 2 divisions- 3 tops.
4GX
Well-known member
I don’t know who “that little Johnny [you] were referring to“ even is— but I’d welcome seeing X play a game with Hoban— I even posted a question (earlier) on another thread asking whether Hoban would agree to play X— X is ALWAYS looking for in-state teams that want to play— I am hoping that Hoban agrees to a game— but, from what I’ve heard, Hoban‘s coach would not be interested, because “they lose too much this year”— too bad, as I‘d have liked to have seen that game. It wouldn’t bother me at all to have Hoban come up to Division I (to compete for an unlimited championship)— I hope they do— and if they win-- hats off to them— I don’t think they would. You have an opinion on that hypothetical game— many others differ— nobody knows for sure— but it’s CERTAINLY NOT like having Hoban play Clemson— X plays with kids the same age as Hoban (and Coldwater and Marion Local), and under the same rules and regulatory authority— Clemson most emphatically does NOT— your comparative skills are sorely lacking.
And you know what: I’d really like to see the MAC schools create a conference “all-star” team, pool their resources, and compete in the unlimited division— I’d love to see how that competition would go— X has about as many boys as Marion Local (~145), Coldwater (~225), New Bremen (~115), Versailles (~200), Minster (~210), Fort Recovery (~140), Anna (~180), Delphos St. John (~140), Parkway (~140), and St. Henry (~160)— that totals to 1615 (all data from Wikipedia)... X used to have ~1600, but has cut back in recent years (to maintain academic standards) to ~1450... Now, no more than ~300 of X‘s students actually play sports— since most of them are there first (and only) for academics— but it seems like a fair competition, seeing as X (as we ALL KNOW, of course) “recruits” only the best players, from all over Southwest Ohio, Southeast Indiana, and Northern Kentucky (NOT). Why don’t the MAC boosters try that some year— create a combined school district (it STILL wouldn’t be as big as Mason HS), field a combined team, and see how your fellas do in the unlimited division? I know that X would LOVE to play your MAC all-star team.
4GX
Well-known member
There’s plenty of question amongst people who know football— and don’t have an ax to grind— meantime, I‘m SURE that X would LOVE to play Hoban, if Hoban were willing—X can’t get 10 teams in the state of Ohio who will play them—when Hoban next feels confident, I hope Hoban’s coach/AD will give X’s AD a call.
Ohiofootball80
Active member
Ohiofootball80
Active member
Protect the Nest
Active member
See ya in the farmland, say in summer. Would have to wait till school is over. Because with our limited numbers our kids play multiple sports. We don’t have many specialized athletes. On a final note I am friends with an X grad and he insisted that you don’t speak for X. He said 95% of X grads that played have respect for other schools that are successful.