rip_JackTatum
Well-known member
REGIONAL RIVALRIES are what makes Ohio football OHIO FOOTBALL...........in my always humble opinion.
Eliminate Regions In OHSAA Football Playoffs
- Thread starter radiodaveagain
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veryoldcoach
Active member
Using the proposed model, it's Interesting seeing most of the people wanting change are involved in some way shape or form w/Gibsonburg. Using the proposed model that eliminated Hillsdale (1st rd game of Northmor) Northmor would not play Hillsdale or Gibsonburg. We just play the games, this model eliminates Hillsdale, who beat Northmor. This is why we play the games, no model would be perfect, but the current model works until a larger group disagrees and sees and injustice, I have no dog in the fight any longer, societal pressures now want trophies for everyone, maybe our next generation would be less marshmallow like if they learned to deal with some disappointments in life.....
That’s a recipe for teams unscheduling in non-conference. Bad idea IMO.
Sunuvaditchdigger
Member
Nope. Only two of us around that I know of, one seems to be neutral to this idea, and I am distinctly opposed.
I only want to see changes if they are unequivocally better, and I haven't seen any plan that does that. The current system works well once the season starts; as advertised, it does a good job of ensuring that the top three or four in each region definitely make the playoffs, and thus that the best ten-to-fifteen statewide are eligible for a state title.
My only issue is that the clinical, computerized operation only works on regions that have been preselected by a subjective process. This allows for statements like "Looks like they don't want three MAC teams in the finals this year," or "Seems like they feel it is time for a Cincinnati or Dayton team to make it to the finals." Do these kind of conversations actually happen prior to a regional map drawing putting the eastern 35% of the state into one region, shoehorning a distinctly weaker region in, and making three regions across the northern third of the state? Maybe, and maybe not, but the opacity of the process invites those questions, especially when the map is dramatically redrawn from one year to the next, with no similar precedent.
This specific proposal against regions arises every year like clockwork. The people who were destined to propose it this year knew that they were going to raise it after Week 9, by about Week 3. There may be some posters who are sympathetic toward the 10-0 teams, or are at least using them in order to further their arguments, but there are not strong voices here from those schools that are pushing them.
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algernonsidney
Well-known member
I fully get why you don't want to have long trips like this. At the same time, I wonder why others don't seem to mind them that much. Yes, two schools in West Virginia will be having 500-mile days. That is assuming they leave in the morning and get home late in the evening. Plus, I was curious.
algernonsidney
Well-known member
Rivalries happen in the regular season. You don't need the playoffs to promote them. In fact, the great rivalries matter to fans, even though the two teams might be terrible. Even if both come into the game 0-9, people will still care about Bellaire and Martins Ferry, Troy and Piqua, Dover and New Philadelphia, Saint Edward and Saint Ignatius.
Conferences aren't going to disappear if OHSAA goes to a statewide playoff. Rivalries aren't going to disappear either. I don't know what makes anyone think they would go away.
FirestoneFan
Well-known member
You don't seem to understand that the Harbin points a team earns during the season has a lot to do with who they play in their region during the season. It does mean a difference in the final tally. Play in a league with 4 teams in the playoffs in Ne Ohio, you might not get as many harbins as a 10-0 team in SW ohio with no playoff teams on the schedule. It all comes out in the wash. 10-0 losing by 30+ or 6-4 (maybe 5-5 or 4-6) winning in week 11. OHSAA will not change the way it is!
I'm pushing 80 hard. I'll make a 2 hour one-way trip, but anything more than that I would be spending the night. That would be to go to a game of the school I follow.
rip_JackTatum
Well-known member
Regions refer to area groupings. Im talking about NE Ohio vs SW Ohio. Cincy teams vs Cleveland teams. Columbus area teams vs Cincy area teams etc. I used to be fired up to play teams from other "regions". Troy/Piqua
Ignatius/St Edward are not considerent different regions.
FirestoneFan
Well-known member
I like Ohio football much better than West Virginia. Lots better teams at the local level.
algernonsidney
Well-known member
There seems to be a myth here that regions never change. They do. Saint Clairsville and Indian Creek are in different regions this year, and both were in the playoffs. Four years ago, they were in the same region:
The schools did not move. They played each other in 2019 and did in 2015. Do you think one of the school said, "Hey, we can't play each other. We are in different regions now."?
The schools did not move. They played each other in 2019 and did in 2015. Do you think one of the school said, "Hey, we can't play each other. We are in different regions now."?
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algernonsidney
Well-known member
Speaking of Indian Creek, they are playing Poland at Salem this week. Here is the distance between the schools:
www.google.com
That is 1:19 or 63.7 miles.
Here is Indian Creek to Salem:
www.google.com
That is 1:13 or 58.7 miles.
Here is Poland to Salem:
www.google.com
That is 0:32 or 18.6 miles.
So, this has added 13.6 miles or 26 minutes in travel time. This example isn't that bad compared to some in the past. So, does Ohio really want to cut down on travel?
Indian Creek High School to Poland Seminary High School
www.google.com
That is 1:19 or 63.7 miles.
Here is Indian Creek to Salem:
Indian Creek High School to Salem Senior High School
www.google.com
That is 1:13 or 58.7 miles.
Here is Poland to Salem:
Poland Seminary High School to Salem Senior High School
www.google.com
That is 0:32 or 18.6 miles.
So, this has added 13.6 miles or 26 minutes in travel time. This example isn't that bad compared to some in the past. So, does Ohio really want to cut down on travel?
algernonsidney
Well-known member
Here is the year 2013:
Observe that Westerville Central was in Region 1 and that Westerville South was in Region 2.
Regions are all about the feelings of the people who divide them up.
"I feel like putting Westerville Central in Region 1 this year."
"I feel like putting Indian Creeek in Region 13 this year."
"I feel like putting Indian Creek in Region 15 this year."
"I feel like putting Westerville South in Region 2 this year."
"I feel like putting Gibsonburg in Region 24 this year."
"I feel like putting Gibsonburg in Region 23 this year."
"I feel like putting Steubenville and Cardinal Mooney in the same region this year."
"I feel like putting Steubenville and Cardinal Mooney in different regions this year."
I suspect many of you haven't noticed this because it doesn't that often happen to some schools. I don't think feelings should enter into a playoff system at all, which is why I have opposed the regions.
So again...why not have the people who divide them up with their “feelings” do it AFTER the 32 playoff teams have been determined?
This is the best of both worlds. Top 32 satisfies the do away with region folks from the standpoint that regional standings have no bearing on who gets in, but assigning regions after the playoff field has been determined can at least cut down on long trips.
The only negative I see is that you could still end up in a situation where the 2 or 3 best teams in a division are in the same region b/c of geography.
They are in two different counties. It can happen
People think the powers that be are rigging regions now to accomplish or do away with certain matchups. How much worse would it be if they did it after knowing exactly which teams made the playoffs?
Thavoice
Well-known member
One year I believe they rigged the Final Four to ensure at least one public would make it.
There was no reason why Coldwater and LCC should not have played in the Semi's for the right to play the unbeatable tUYCM (Cardinal Mooney).
but instead they made both games long trips for all 4 schools so two publics faced off in the semis
algernonsidney
Well-known member
I have said over and over that the top 32 team should be bracketed with 1-32, 2-31, 3-30, etc. When I say eliminate the sacred cow known as the regions, I mean exactly that--eliminate the regions. I never imagined that it would be such a sacred cow.
I can see both sides of the argument. The way things are going now with attendance which is what funds the playoffs, adding more travel is most likely not a viable solution economically. Something is up with the number sites not available as it is. D1, D2, D3 all playing on the same night is one issue causing sites not to be available in week 12. Another is either the cost to run these sites for a game can not be covered along with travel at $9.00 per ticket, or someones operating cost is to high. Not knowing any of the details on the revenue and expense is a blind spot here. I can see there are some economics to the regional set up. Even in situations where a game could easily get 10,000 to say 16,000 people they are putting them in stadiums of 6K. Elder vs St X, Massillon vs Massillon Perry. Now they could triple the revenue here but they aren't so either the increase in attendance is unable to cover the cost of the larger stadium, or it could cover the stadium, but it would eat into the revenue needed to cover the OHSAA's overhead costs. I really do not have an issue with the top 32, but economics says not at this point!
While I get what you’re saying about eliminating regions all together to get a 1 vs 32, 2 vs 31, etc. set up... realistically that’s never going to happen.
Ultimately it won’t happen b/c of money. Attendance has already been trending down, the potentially longer trips in earlier rounds would hurt attendance even more.
And this could also result in significantly higher travel costs for tax payer funded public schools which will cause increased scrutiny from the tax payer groups who are already complaining about having tax payer money spent on non-educational expenses in schools. Not to mention the potential for kids to miss class so they can get out of school early for a 3+ hour bus trip.
At least my idea of assigning regions AFTER the playoff teams have been determined would ensure the top 32 teams in the state make the playoffs.
Ultimately it won’t happen b/c of money. Attendance has already been trending down, the potentially longer trips in earlier rounds would hurt attendance even more.
And this could also result in significantly higher travel costs for tax payer funded public schools which will cause increased scrutiny from the tax payer groups who are already complaining about having tax payer money spent on non-educational expenses in schools. Not to mention the potential for kids to miss class so they can get out of school early for a 3+ hour bus trip.
At least my idea of assigning regions AFTER the playoff teams have been determined would ensure the top 32 teams in the state make the playoffs.
StSebastian
Active member
I posted this in another thread that is now buried and it seemed to at least make a LITTLE more sense to some when it came to match-ups in a Top 32 scenario based on state wide Harbin. Once the field is set, it would guarantee the best 4 teams would make it to the Regional Final and beyond. It does not account for travel in its entirety but it also does not restrict it to regions where the top 2-3 teams in the state have to face off BEFORE Regional Finals. It comes down to luck of the draw and it COULD result in 1 long trip in the first round for a lower seeded team but after that, neutral site is in play and the trips theoretically get cut in half (as long as the OHSAA has a good number of available sites that are willing and able to host). But you may get lucky and draw a closer first round. Part of the suspense and fun....
It is not a straight 1v32, 2v31, 3v30... scenario but it is close so not ideal but I see no other way of getting the BEST teams to finals which should ultimately be the goal. With the current Harbin System, the best team in the state is not necessarily the top seed in a region. They could potentially be a 2-3 seed in their current region and a 7-9 overall a la Marion Local and Fort Loramie in R28 playing in week 12 who are both HEAVY favorites to win it all... or a Winton Woods who missed out because of a strong region but had the 17th highest Harbins and would be a 5 seed in what I present below. Talk about a Cinderella opportunity at least based on seeding....
This set-up is guaranteed to present the best teams to Canton (or Columbus) while still allowing for the potential "upset" (see Winton Woods example above). The OHSAA should recognize that sacrificing a week 1 drop in attendance is worth it if later rounds are more heavily attended because the BEST teams are playing the furthest along in the tournament...
Anyway... It has its concerns (1 week of high travel, neutral facility availability, etc.) and potential issues like everything else... but here is my proposed set-up and process that is a mixture of NCAA style bracketing and UEFA pill drawing with an attached example of how DVI COULD have played out this year in this process...
R1 /// R3
1v8 /// 1v8
6v3 /// 6v3
4v5 /// 4v5
7v2 /// 7v2
R2 /// R4
1v8 /// 1v8
6v3 /// 6v3
4v5 /// 4v5
7v2 /// 7v2
The OVERALL 1-8 get placed into brackets as follows:
1 & 8 overall in R1 as the 1 and 2 seed
2 & 7 overall in R2 as the 1 and 2 seed
3 & 6 overall in R3 as the 1 and 2 seed
4 & 5 overall in R4 as the 1 and 2 seed
then the OVERALL 9-32, grouped based on seeding (3-8) draw a 1, 2, 3, or 4 to determine where they will go in a Region.
9-12 are 3 seeds and draw a regional pill
13-16 are 4 seeds and draw a regional pill
17-20 are 5 seeds and draw a regional pill
21-24 are 6 seeds and draw a regional pill
25-28 are 7 seeds and draw a regional pill
29-32 are 8 seeds and draw a regional pill
It is not a straight 1v32, 2v31, 3v30... scenario but it is close so not ideal but I see no other way of getting the BEST teams to finals which should ultimately be the goal. With the current Harbin System, the best team in the state is not necessarily the top seed in a region. They could potentially be a 2-3 seed in their current region and a 7-9 overall a la Marion Local and Fort Loramie in R28 playing in week 12 who are both HEAVY favorites to win it all... or a Winton Woods who missed out because of a strong region but had the 17th highest Harbins and would be a 5 seed in what I present below. Talk about a Cinderella opportunity at least based on seeding....
This set-up is guaranteed to present the best teams to Canton (or Columbus) while still allowing for the potential "upset" (see Winton Woods example above). The OHSAA should recognize that sacrificing a week 1 drop in attendance is worth it if later rounds are more heavily attended because the BEST teams are playing the furthest along in the tournament...
Anyway... It has its concerns (1 week of high travel, neutral facility availability, etc.) and potential issues like everything else... but here is my proposed set-up and process that is a mixture of NCAA style bracketing and UEFA pill drawing with an attached example of how DVI COULD have played out this year in this process...
R1 /// R3
1v8 /// 1v8
6v3 /// 6v3
4v5 /// 4v5
7v2 /// 7v2
R2 /// R4
1v8 /// 1v8
6v3 /// 6v3
4v5 /// 4v5
7v2 /// 7v2
The OVERALL 1-8 get placed into brackets as follows:
1 & 8 overall in R1 as the 1 and 2 seed
2 & 7 overall in R2 as the 1 and 2 seed
3 & 6 overall in R3 as the 1 and 2 seed
4 & 5 overall in R4 as the 1 and 2 seed
then the OVERALL 9-32, grouped based on seeding (3-8) draw a 1, 2, 3, or 4 to determine where they will go in a Region.
9-12 are 3 seeds and draw a regional pill
13-16 are 4 seeds and draw a regional pill
17-20 are 5 seeds and draw a regional pill
21-24 are 6 seeds and draw a regional pill
25-28 are 7 seeds and draw a regional pill
29-32 are 8 seeds and draw a regional pill
algernonsidney
Well-known member
I have to wonder how having playoff games at neutral sites impacts attendance. If you give a home game to the higher seed, you can at least expect the home team's fans to show up. Of course, you may also end up with less fans of the visiting school. Often OHSAA creates a fairly long trip for both schools.
Saturday afternoon games might also bring in more crowds. With the weather getting colder, people may prefer a day game to a night game. Plus, the evening game guarantees that you will get home fairly late.
I did find it interesting that nobody in West Virginia chose a game on Saturday evening.
Saturday afternoon games might also bring in more crowds. With the weather getting colder, people may prefer a day game to a night game. Plus, the evening game guarantees that you will get home fairly late.
I did find it interesting that nobody in West Virginia chose a game on Saturday evening.
algernonsidney
Well-known member
Here are the times and distances in West Virginia this week. Again, nobody choose to play on Saturday evening.
Friday 7:30
AAA
George Washington @ Cabell Midland
0:44, 37.4 miles
Capital @ Spring Valley
1:04, 61.3 miles
AA
Frankfort @ Fairmont Senior
1:44, 99.0 miles
Keyser @ Bluefield
4:52, 231 miles
A
Williamstown @ Greenbrier West
3:10, 165 miles
Sat - 1:30
AAA
Spring Mills @ Martinsburg
0:19, 8.3 miles
Musselman @ Parkersburg South
4:30, 256 miles
AA
Mingo Central @ Bridgeport
3:27, 204 miles
Oak Glen @ Poca
3:53, 232 miles
A
East Hardy @ Doddridge Co
2:56, 148 miles
St. Marys @ Pendleton Co
3:21, 178 miles
Wheeling Central @ Ritchie Co
1:42, 80.6 miles
The averages were:
AAA: 1:39, 90.75 miles
AA: 3:27, 191.5 miles
A: 2:47, 142.9 miles
Friday: 2:17, 118.7 miles
Saturday: 2:52, 158.1 miles
Overall, it is 2:37 and 141.7 miles.
Trips over four hours: 2
Trips over three hours: 6
The second round definitely has longer averages than the first.
Friday 7:30
AAA
George Washington @ Cabell Midland
0:44, 37.4 miles
Capital @ Spring Valley
1:04, 61.3 miles
AA
Frankfort @ Fairmont Senior
1:44, 99.0 miles
Keyser @ Bluefield
4:52, 231 miles
A
Williamstown @ Greenbrier West
3:10, 165 miles
Sat - 1:30
AAA
Spring Mills @ Martinsburg
0:19, 8.3 miles
Musselman @ Parkersburg South
4:30, 256 miles
AA
Mingo Central @ Bridgeport
3:27, 204 miles
Oak Glen @ Poca
3:53, 232 miles
A
East Hardy @ Doddridge Co
2:56, 148 miles
St. Marys @ Pendleton Co
3:21, 178 miles
Wheeling Central @ Ritchie Co
1:42, 80.6 miles
The averages were:
AAA: 1:39, 90.75 miles
AA: 3:27, 191.5 miles
A: 2:47, 142.9 miles
Friday: 2:17, 118.7 miles
Saturday: 2:52, 158.1 miles
Overall, it is 2:37 and 141.7 miles.
Trips over four hours: 2
Trips over three hours: 6
The second round definitely has longer averages than the first.
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How about we take your "no regions" to the level of the absurd. Take the top 32 Harbin points teams but then don't seed them. Simply pair them up as closest to each other. It you have the top two Harbin teams play each other in the first round then that's just the way it goes.
CedarBuck92
Well-known member
To me the only way a straight top 32 with no region playoff works is if you cap travel distance before forcing the game to a neutral site. Say if travel is over 2.5 hours it needs to be at a neutral site. Or just make the entire thing neutral site. I understand what you are trying to do but I don't find it likely that the schools would vote for it without some level of travel protection.
algernonsidney
Well-known member
I never imagined the regions were such a sacred cow. It does make me ask some deeper philosophical questions:
How does something like this become a sacred cow?
Why are people so protective of these sacred cows?
How does something like this become a sacred cow?
Why are people so protective of these sacred cows?
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