Texas shooting timeline

thisisinsane

Well-known member
i call on schools, doors are not left open at least in Ohio, to get fresh air in the schools.... maybe back in the 70's and 80's but not in todays enviroment.... there is only one point of entry to get in schools now a days...
For sure, however, kind of like TP said, it’s impossible to account for all the “what if’s”.

It’s been proven that if a sick individual wants to do damage, they find a way.

A couple what if scenarios that “one door entry” doesn’t solve:

-kids go in and out for activities (especially in nice weather)
- teacher gets overpowered or killed for their ID badge in parking lot
- teacher has ID stolen and doesn’t realize
-teacher subdued at home the night before
- teacher leaves for lunch, someone else comes back with their ID
-disgruntled employee already with access
- custodian killed while taking out trash midday

Now, some of the above scenarios could be handled with the one door policy, logistically is a nightmare. Most schools have FOBs or ID badges that grant employee access at most outside entrances.

Should teachers be allowed to leave for lunch? I believe most would sacrifice the ability to leave for the ultimate protection of students. However, what would a bunch of new requirements for the same pay do to the profession in the long run?

A liberal teacher may be opposed to arming teachers and such. And the more conservative teachers are already leaving the profession in droves due to liberal policies.

So who is education going to attract?

I ask all this, not opposing what you are saying, simply putting out some of the things I still see as security issues not solved by “one door” and metal detectors. I certainly believe the one door theory would help to some degree, but it would certainly take more investment of resources while asking more of teachers without increasing pay. Typically something that wouldn’t fly in the private sector but somehow it seems to be “ok” with some to ask for more yet not have a plan to compensate for it.
 

utsherman

Well-known member
For sure, however, kind of like TP said, it’s impossible to account for all the “what if’s”.

It’s been proven that if a sick individual wants to do damage, they find a way.

A couple what if scenarios that “one door entry” doesn’t solve:

-kids go in and out for activities (especially in nice weather)
- teacher gets overpowered or killed for their ID badge in parking lot
- teacher has ID stolen and doesn’t realize
-teacher subdued at home the night before
- teacher leaves for lunch, someone else comes back with their ID
-disgruntled employee already with access
- custodian killed while taking out trash midday

Now, some of the above scenarios could be handled with the one door policy, logistically is a nightmare. Most schools have FOBs or ID badges that grant employee access at most outside entrances.

Should teachers be allowed to leave for lunch? I believe most would sacrifice the ability to leave for the ultimate protection of students. However, what would a bunch of new requirements for the same pay do to the profession in the long run?

A liberal teacher may be opposed to arming teachers and such. And the more conservative teachers are already leaving the profession in droves due to liberal policies.

So who is education going to attract?

I ask all this, not opposing what you are saying, simply putting out some of the things I still see as security issues not solved by “one door” and metal detectors. I certainly believe the one door theory would help to some degree, but it would certainly take more investment of resources while asking more of teachers without increasing pay. Typically something that wouldn’t fly in the private sector but somehow it seems to be “ok” with some to ask for more yet not have a plan to compensate for it.
I also think the 'open-concept' schools are a recipe for disaster. I could give you a myriad of educational issues that these cause, but the security issues are insane as well. A perpetrator can likely move from room to room without having to enter/exit individual rooms (that can lock). They can simply move across partisans or easily breach high walls. No possible way to isolate. And of course window rescue is easier when individual/old-school classrooms exist. Luckily, my kiddos elementary just did a remodel and moved away from this open concept style. We loathed it.
 

thisisinsane

Well-known member
i call on schools, doors are not left open at least in Ohio, to get fresh air in the schools.... maybe back in the 70's and 80's but not in todays enviroment.... there is only one point of entry to get in schools now a days...
Also, you are partially correct (at least with schools I know of), there is a “one door” policy for visitors, not necessarily teachers and other employees.

Just take the one example of a custodian being killed midday while taking out the trash (or grounds crew that are mowing). What would that look like logistically?

-SRO escorts them?
-Keep the trash inside until the kids go home?
- Custodian can only enter through visitor front door? Has to potentially walk out the back door, near the trash bin, then circle around to the front to come back in? That definitely takes a lot longer time, and away from his/her other responsibilities.

Again, certainly not saying your wrong, just trying to examine how we could make that work.
 

thisisinsane

Well-known member
If this is accurate, shouldn't it have come up in the background check when he was buying the guns?
Uh… no. Many of these schools attempt to “sweep” this stuff under the rug. Also, unless they actually charged him, it wouldn’t be recorded for the BCI/FBI background check. Also not sure if he was charged as a juvenile if things like that would show up?

I posted on Oxat thread about the tragedy to do with sociopaths/socially maladjusted kids. IMO the “mental health” push in schools has exacerbated some of these issues, borderline fostering them in some situations. I hope many realize that many mental health counselors (LPCs and such not school guidance counselors) work for private business and when families or the state can’t foot the bill, a kid will not be seen.
 
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Orin Swift

Well-known member
I'm concerned about how quickly many are turning on the cops. If this was a bomb, no one would question the police for waiting for the proper people and equipment to show up to deactivate the bomb. Even if the bomb went off and killed innocents, no one would expect an untrained policeman to try to diffuse the bomb just to get his own head blown off and still have the innocents killed.

They said that 100s of rounds went off in the first two minutes. My own thought process is guessing that the police felt no one was left alive in that classroom. It would make no sense to try and break down the door only to get many police shot in the doorway as they tried to enter. It sounds like they thought he had barricaded himself in there to have a final assault on anyone coming in to get him.

The police may have done wrong but it's tough seeing all these people saying they didn't do their job when we still don't know exactly what was going inside that building. Many more details are needed before throwing these police under the bus.

The one thing we do know is that back door should not have been open.
You forgot the part where police got their family members out of distance from the bomb before waiting for the proper equipment and personnel to save everyone not related to a police officer.
 

Gardens35

Well-known member
It's hard for me to fathom that 15+ LEO's were outside of the door, but failed to breach whilst waiting for a key. 🤯

Like the George Floyd situation......................Multiple officers involved and not one with enough sense to say "WTF are we doing here!!!"

Disappointing.
 

Yorktown

Well-known member
So now all of our police offerers everywhere are paralyzed to act in any situation. This is the gift of a junkie and purveyor of counterfeit money.
You people who support this defund movement are the most idiotic people in human history. Yes you.. you have done this. Shumucks.
 

thisisinsane

Well-known member
Like the George Floyd situation......................Multiple officers involved and not one with enough sense to say "WTF are we doing here!!!"

Disappointing.
I agree that it’s disappointing to some degree.
Similar to the military, the police have a chain of command. Typically, that chain of command is honored to it’s core. Discipline and possibly termination for not following orders.
Acting unilaterally simply because you think you know best is frowned upon.

Right or wrong, that is why none of the other (out-ranked) officers stepped up in the Floyd arrest. Right or wrong that is why no police acted unilaterally and stormed in (with the exception of the BP agent that had family inside and knew the police wouldn’t stop him with force).

I don’t know what the commanding officer on scene was thinking, was he following protocol? I really don’t know.

I do know that it seems like there were a whole host of red flags before it became a police matter:

- none of his family were brave enough to question him or turn him in for questionable behavior (asked sister to buy gun, Dad and Grandma act like there were no indications of mental illness-BS)
-people in group chat did not report anything even with one asking about “shooting up a school”
- teacher left door propped open(certainly against protocol)
- and the biggest failure (if proven to be true) was on the school system if he had made a threat previously

We’re the police cowards? Maybe some. It’s always easy to armchair QB, never easy to be the actual QB.
 

14Red

Well-known member
For sure, however, kind of like TP said, it’s impossible to account for all the “what if’s”.

It’s been proven that if a sick individual wants to do damage, they find a way.

A couple what if scenarios that “one door entry” doesn’t solve:

-kids go in and out for activities (especially in nice weather)
- teacher gets overpowered or killed for their ID badge in parking lot
- teacher has ID stolen and doesn’t realize
-teacher subdued at home the night before
- teacher leaves for lunch, someone else comes back with their ID
-disgruntled employee already with access
- custodian killed while taking out trash midday

Now, some of the above scenarios could be handled with the one door policy, logistically is a nightmare. Most schools have FOBs or ID badges that grant employee access at most outside entrances.

Should teachers be allowed to leave for lunch? I believe most would sacrifice the ability to leave for the ultimate protection of students. However, what would a bunch of new requirements for the same pay do to the profession in the long run?

A liberal teacher may be opposed to arming teachers and such. And the more conservative teachers are already leaving the profession in droves due to liberal policies.

So who is education going to attract?

I ask all this, not opposing what you are saying, simply putting out some of the things I still see as security issues not solved by “one door” and metal detectors. I certainly believe the one door theory would help to some degree, but it would certainly take more investment of resources while asking more of teachers without increasing pay. Typically something that wouldn’t fly in the private sector but somehow it seems to be “ok” with some to ask for more yet not have a plan to compensate for it.
People want 100% full proof solutions and that's simply not possible. Now was this school lax, probably. They probably never-ever had a problem and this was actually an "inside" job if you consider this a student. Security probably recognized him. We may just not have answers. Innocent people die everyday in this country. Just in Cincinnati yesterday, a person tried to shoplift at a Walmart, was approached by another shopper and an employee, the dirt bag pulled a gun, shot the shopper dead and wounded the employee.
These are the times we live in. Remember the enemy doesn't have to play by the rules. You don't know who is out there when you are in public.
 

14Red

Well-known member
Ok before everyone jumps to conclusions, here is what you must be thinking if you come into the situation as the police. We know the outcome so the armchair QB's are in full force.

Suspect inside - we have no idea if he has bombs, other equipment that could make it a major event. May be more than one person.

What if no one is killed and you force the issue and the shooter opens fire?

This isn't an episode of Criminal Minds where everything this wrapped up in a hour.

Keep an open mind and know that the authorities didn't have all the info that you do now.
 

thisisinsane

Well-known member
Ok before everyone jumps to conclusions, here is what you must be thinking if you come into the situation as the police. We know the outcome so the armchair QB's are in full force.

Suspect inside - we have no idea if he has bombs, other equipment that could make it a major event. May be more than one person.

What if no one is killed and you force the issue and the shooter opens fire?

This isn't an episode of Criminal Minds where everything this wrapped up in a hour.

Keep an open mind and know that the authorities didn't have all the info that you do now.
I don’t really see much media lambasting the teacher for leaving a door propped? Definitely not facing the scrutiny that the police are facing.
It’s a psychological trick that many of us implement with tragedies such as this. The “who we can blame” phenomenon (I’m sure there is a fancy clinical term). With all our amateur internet sleuthing, it only compounds the issue.

We talk about mental health all the time, and instead of rallying around the community (in this case it includes the police) with support, we play the blame game. I’m sure the police involved went to Applebees afterwards and had a good chuckle about how they possibly dropped the ball, headed home and got a nice, restful sleep. Give me a break. Those officers will face a lifetime riddled with actual PTSD and regret.
 

IVCguy

Well-known member
There were children outside at recess on the other side of the building. My sis was a principal at a public school in AZ. She says an unlocked door should never happen. Their doors were designed to auto close and auto lock. But you wonder if it was open because of recess to ease re-entry? Who knows, but that was a pivotal error on someone's part. If the shooter was kept outside, or delayed getting inside, this could have had a different outcome - perhaps some degree less tragic.

Ifs and buts with some woulda, shoulda, couldas.
 

Gardens35

Well-known member
Ok before everyone jumps to conclusions, here is what you must be thinking if you come into the situation as the police. We know the outcome so the armchair QB's are in full force.

Suspect inside - we have no idea if he has bombs, other equipment that could make it a major event. May be more than one person.

What if no one is killed and you force the issue and the shooter opens fire?

This isn't an episode of Criminal Minds where everything this wrapped up in a hour.

Keep an open mind and know that the authorities didn't have all the info that you do now.

An Active Shooter in an elementary school IS a major event. That's why they were there.

Once there, their sole function is to follow the national standard to neutralize the shooter. "What if" isn't included in the standard.

The "authorities" that were there at that time HAD more real time info then than you and I and everyone else will ever have.
 

IVCguy

Well-known member
Fog of war - or something similar. But training is supposed to help cut through the fog.

I have a hard time believing the deficiencies in response were due to callousness or cowardice or the like. I hope we find that there was a lack of training and planning, and that those who were trained properly weren't there for an hour.

I also wonder if having a dozen different agencies there piecemeal didn't contribute to the confusion in terms of who is in ultimate command and if they had never trained together, they weren't ready to work together. Something along those lines.

Gotta find out tho to learn and apply.
 

thisisinsane

Well-known member
An Active Shooter in an elementary school IS a major event. That's why they were there.

Once there, their sole function is to follow the national standard to neutralize the shooter. "What if" isn't included in the standard.
Link to “national standard”? Never heard of that. Is that a federal law enforcement policy? How do they write that standard? Do they simply use counter measures to the “School Shooter Playbook” which is always the same exact situation?
 

Gardens35

Well-known member
I read a bunch of stuff yesterday, it was probably at fbi.gov, but I'm not positive. If you search, use "Best Practices" in combo with "Active Shooter".
Link to “national standard”? Never heard of that. Is that a federal law enforcement policy? How do they write that standard? Do they simply use counter measures to the “School Shooter Playbook” which is always the same exact situation?
 

chs1971

Well-known member
I also think the 'open-concept' schools are a recipe for disaster. I could give you a myriad of educational issues that these cause, but the security issues are insane as well. A perpetrator can likely move from room to room without having to enter/exit individual rooms (that can lock). They can simply move across partisans or easily breach high walls. No possible way to isolate. And of course window rescue is easier when individual/old-school classrooms exist. Luckily, my kiddos elementary just did a remodel and moved away from this open concept style. We loathed it.
But it also makes it easier for students and teachers to escape to safety, which is the first thing they should do.
 

Gardens35

Well-known member
So now all of our police offerers everywhere are paralyzed to act in any situation. This is the gift of a junkie and purveyor of counterfeit money.
You people who support this defund movement are the most idiotic people in human history. Yes you.. you have done this. Shumucks.

Well, we can probably thank those 4 dimwits in Minneapolis for much of that. Remember, they had that creep cuffed up and in the back of a cruiser then decided to take him out and lay him on the ground. Then the world watched.
 

y2h

Well-known member
Someone forgot to lock it. Ever do that? It is extremely taxing to be 100% vigilant 100% of the time with 100% of every person who is potentially a mass murderer. It is an obscure elementary school in small town USA, not a prison camp in Iraq. Should we outlaw recess too? Just another small sacrifice at the altar of the 2nd amendment.
Ever seen a door that automatically locks from the outside when closed?
 

y2h

Well-known member
I drop my kids off or need to be at the school often. I have to be buzzed in. Except when someone is entering or leaving at the same time. Then I waltz in. In fact most will hold the door open. It is in people's nature to be courteous that way. Most are not built to view their fellow citizens as mass shooters. As comfortable as some of you are in that mindset, or barely leave the house unarmed. That's not for everyone, sorry.
The kid was wearing body armor waving a gun around....I doubt anyone courteously held the door open thinking he was there for a visit.
 

y2h

Well-known member
It does. I can tell you when my kid goes to basketball practice the door to that building (connected to school) is held wide open with a doorstop. So they can all get in. And or step in & out for fresh air. Others can believe that or not.
So not during the school day...
 

y2h

Well-known member
This is not true. Delphos St John's continually left all sets of doors open during the warmer months at the beginning and end of the school year because the entire building, save for 2 rooms in the high school, does not have air conditioning.
And someone forgot to install windows?
 

y2h

Well-known member
Ok before everyone jumps to conclusions, here is what you must be thinking if you come into the situation as the police. We know the outcome so the armchair QB's are in full force.

Suspect inside - we have no idea if he has bombs, other equipment that could make it a major event. May be more than one person.

What if no one is killed and you force the issue and the shooter opens fire?

This isn't an episode of Criminal Minds where everything this wrapped up in a hour.

Keep an open mind and know that the authorities didn't have all the info that you do now.
They were in pursuit when he crashed and entered the building, therefore they knew it was one perp. They could hear the gunfire as they stood outside, the issue was already forced.
 

Yorktown

Well-known member
Well, we can probably thank those 4 dimwits in Minneapolis for much of that. Remember, they had that creep cuffed up and in the back of a cruiser then decided to take him out and lay him on the ground. Then the world watched.
Yes and the 1 hour of nonsense that took place before the saint was chocked out is never taken into account.
ultimatly what happen to the exhausted one was not right.. neither is the rioting, burning. Looting and defunding of the police that followed.
 

SayMyName

Well-known member
Donakd trump is disgusting .dors a dance as 22 people died.
Jeff Goldblum What GIF by The Late Late Show with James Corden
 

lotr10

Well-known member
I'm concerned about how quickly many are turning on the cops. If this was a bomb, no one would question the police for waiting for the proper people and equipment to show up to deactivate the bomb. Even if the bomb went off and killed innocents, no one would expect an untrained policeman to try to diffuse the bomb just to get his own head blown off and still have the innocents killed.

They said that 100s of rounds went off in the first two minutes. My own thought process is guessing that the police felt no one was left alive in that classroom. It would make no sense to try and break down the door only to get many police shot in the doorway as they tried to enter. It sounds like they thought he had barricaded himself in there to have a final assault on anyone coming in to get him.

The police may have done wrong but it's tough seeing all these people saying they didn't do their job when we still don't know exactly what was going inside that building. Many more details are needed before throwing these police under the bus.

The one thing we do know is that back door should not have been open.
I agree to a point and my own posts have contributed to this jumping to conclusions. But the evidence appears to be overwhelming that on almost every level the police and school authorities screwed this up. It's difficult to reconcile kids from the classroom the murderer was in repeatedly calling 911 asking for help. That the commander(s) on the spot wouldn't let officers attack this devil at the onset seems to have been confirmed.

I can't help but think back to the summer of 2020 when police by the thousands stood back and allowed BLM/Antifa rioters to loot businesses, burn down buildings and assault people. How is what just happened different? There seems to be a rot in the leadership of America's law enforcement establishment. I think your average officer would have willingly gone into that classroom putting their lives on the line to save those kids. But big government bureaucracy which is now infecting even small police forces seems to be causing law enforcement to grind to a halt in these high profile events.
 

brian1227

Well-known member
NRA meeting was a disgrace.Trump after that awful display.messing up the dead children names.The gongs and the little dance.to the worst president ever.
 
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