Solution to the Mid-State League Problems

The Dock

Well-known member
This league is a dumpster fire with many mismatching parts. There does probably need to be a strong central administrator if they're going to have any real chance of keeping the majority of it together beyond the next 5-10 years.
The league constitution on voting is 25% of the problem; a division doing something really dumb and short-sighted by ramming a team into another division is 25% of the problem. Having 23 schools across nearly all the umpteen counties of the Columbus metropolitan area is 50% of the problem.

The bolded is fixable. The italicized can be fixed if the bolded issue is taken care of (hint, hint.)

I've given the commish public grief over the years. That said, folks I trust (that I've talked to) representing a bunch of backgrounds and capacities, tell me the same thing: "the commish isn't the problem." So, I'm inclined to believe them.

The power of numbers, the dynamics of geography and tradition, the fact that there are three (3) schools that represent common ground between two otherwise diametrically different divisions (the Buckeye and the Cardinal), and moreover the fact both divisions see the writing on the wall = both divisions will work together in the short-term. "Working together in the short-term" means candid conversations, a recognition of the facts and bracing for what may happen. It doesn't mean they're going to be one big happy family, nor does it mean the house holds as is.
 
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ghsknightsfan

Well-known member
I don't know all( or any) of the ins and outs of MSL politics - but here is a division


Grandview Heights (6:23)
Grove City Christian (7:27)
Worthington Christian (6:23)
Bexley (4:15)
Columbus Academy (5:19)
Bishop Ready (5:19)
Mechanicsburg
Fairbanks
West Jefferson
👀??
never in a million years!

although Burg would finally get to drive on some straight roads!
 

Down The Road

Well-known member
never in a million years!

although Burg would finally get to drive on some straight roads!

Y not? The us ride to all those places is shorter than to Enon, Jamestown, Cedarville and you pass places to eat along the way!
And don't tell me about sticking with Triad and WLS screw those guys they can schedules non conference games if they like.
 

ghsknightsfan

Well-known member
Y not? The us ride to all those places is shorter than to Enon, Jamestown, Cedarville and you pass places to eat along the way!
And don't tell me about sticking with Triad and WLS screw those guys they can schedules non conference games if they like.
haha- i think you would get sick of Columbus traffic REAL quick. also, the North division is phenomenal for you guys. you’re only stuck driving to each south school once every 4 years in football. and whether you like it or not, Burg will stick with WLS/Triad as long as they have similar enrollment
 

BT17

Member
I speak as someone who has NO idea what he's talking about...

But I could absolutely see Circleville and Logan Elm breaking off and joining the FAC or SVC if there is any volatility in the Buckeye. They already have long-lasting relationships with many of the members schools (Zane Trace, Westfall, WCH, Miami Trace, etc.). I could also see them pulling someone like AC along with them.

Or, maybe a new league with Circleville, Logan Elm, AC, Miami Trace, WCH, Waverly, Chillicothe, Hillsboro?

Again, no connections and no insight to any of these schools. Just my thoughts on the matter!
 

The Dock

Well-known member
I speak as someone who has NO idea what he's talking about...

But I could absolutely see Circleville and Logan Elm breaking off and joining the FAC or SVC if there is any volatility in the Buckeye. They already have long-lasting relationships with many of the members schools (Zane Trace, Westfall, WCH, Miami Trace, etc.). I could also see them pulling someone like AC along with them.

Or, maybe a new league with Circleville, Logan Elm, AC, Miami Trace, WCH, Waverly, Chillicothe, Hillsboro?

Again, no connections and no insight to any of these schools. Just my thoughts on the matter!
Highly plausible situation that could happen in the next 10 years. CV, LE + Unioto, Westfall, Zane Trace, even Amanda, WCH and Miami Trace seems the most likely. It won’t be a perfect situation but it could work.

I don’t think CV/LE want anything to do with Highland County travel.

There isn’t a real crystal clear one currently for CV/LE, that’s worth killing the Buckeye, unless a deal is made by the SVC to expand into a north/south like…

SVC North
Circleville
Logan Elm

Adena
Zane Trace
Unioto
Westfall

SVC South
Oak Hill
uh…, uh… Eastern Pike(?)
Huntington
Southeastern
Piketon
Paint Valley
 

Down The Road

Well-known member
haha- i think you would get sick of Columbus traffic REAL quick. also, the North division is phenomenal for you guys. you’re only stuck driving to each south school once every 4 years in football. and whether you like it or not, Burg will stick with WLS/Triad as long as they have similar enrollment

No we won't - Trust me.
We could care less what they do. And Our decisions for the future do not include worrying 1 bit about them.

As for traffic I have gone to games at all those places except Bexley and coming or going the west side traffic even for early games is not bad.
 

The Dock

Well-known member
Grandview Heights (6:23)
Grove City Christian (7:27)
Worthington Christian (6:23)
Bexley (4:15)
Columbus Academy (5:19)
Bishop Ready (5:19)
Mechanicsburg
Fairbanks
West Jefferson
👀??
West Jeff was on the 270 express for, like, 3-4 years. I suspect the Mayor-Headmaster machine that is BX/CA wasn’t a feather in the Ohio’s cap toward keeping WJ.

GCC, GH, WC all have fantastic AD’s and generally supportive administrations with football programs that would be below the level Burg, WJ and I imagine Fairbanks would like to play with. Not to mention travel.
 

ghsknightsfan

Well-known member
No we won't - Trust me.
We could care less what they do. And Our decisions for the future do not include worrying 1 bit about them.

As for traffic I have gone to games at all those places except Bexley and coming or going the west side traffic even for early games is not bad.
Travel Times in suggested league (from Mechanicsburg, assuming no traffic, but likely will add 15-20 minutes any week night after 4pm)
Columbus Academy- 49 minutes
Grandview Heights- 36 minutes
Grove City Christian- 42 minutes
Worthington Christian- 46 minutes
Bexley- 42 minutes
Bishop Ready- 38 minutes

Travel times in current OHC (no traffic)
Greenon- 36 minutes
Greeneview- 46 minutes
Cedarville- 43 minutes
Southeastern- 31
Madison Plains- 33
Catholic Central- 26 minutes
West Jefferson- 27 minutes
Fairbanks- 18 minutes
Triad- 14 minutes
West Liberty Salem- 23 minutes
Northeastern- 20 minutes

Burg has nothing to gain going to a columbus league. competition doesn't exactly improve. Burg is currently in a league where they don't drive further than 46 minutes for a game, with no other drives being over 36! also, Burg and private schools in Columbus is not a cultural fit, the OHC is. Maybe Burg should schedule Columbus Academy and Bishop Ready in weeks 1/2 sometime?
 

LCL

Active member
I don't see why the entire Buckeye doesn't just decide to say bye to the MSL, pay whatever exit fee there is and leave to make their own conference.

You end up with:
Amanda Clear-Creek
Bloom Carroll
Circleville
Fairfield Union
Hamilton Township
Liberty Union
Logan Elm
You have a fine 7 team conference, or you look for a dancing partner, maybe Whitehall, maybe even Westfall?
 

Down The Road

Well-known member
Travel Times in suggested league (from Mechanicsburg, assuming no traffic, but likely will add 15-20 minutes any week night after 4pm)
Columbus Academy- 49 minutes
Grandview Heights- 36 minutes
Grove City Christian- 42 minutes
Worthington Christian- 46 minutes
Bexley- 42 minutes
Bishop Ready- 38 minutes

Travel times in current OHC (no traffic)
Greenon- 36 minutes
Greeneview- 46 minutes
Cedarville- 43 minutes
Southeastern- 31
Madison Plains- 33
Catholic Central- 26 minutes
West Jefferson- 27 minutes
Fairbanks- 18 minutes
Triad- 14 minutes
West Liberty Salem- 23 minutes
Northeastern- 20 minutes

Burg has nothing to gain going to a columbus league. competition doesn't exactly improve. Burg is currently in a league where they don't drive further than 46 minutes for a game, with no other drives being over 36! also, Burg and private schools in Columbus is not a cultural fit, the OHC is. Maybe Burg should schedule Columbus Academy and Bishop Ready in weeks 1/2 sometime?

And maybe greenon should get back in the CBC
Burg fits way better with them. We all only know what we see from our own front porch. OHC is tired. I'm done with WLS & Triad time for new scenery!
 

The Dock

Well-known member
I don't see why the entire Buckeye doesn't just decide to say bye to the MSL, pay whatever exit fee there is and leave to make their own conference.

You end up with:
Amanda Clear-Creek
Bloom Carroll
Circleville
Fairfield Union
Hamilton Township
Liberty Union
Logan Elm
The main issue is those schools are generally considered to be the Mid-State League.
AC (1958)
BC (1958)
CV (1990)
FU (1949/1962)
HT (1981)
LU (1949)
LE (1973)

To a certain extent, Berne Union (1953), Fisher Cath (1964) and Millersport (1957) are also the Mid-State League but if those schools weren't in the MSL it only is a small dent in the chest compared to the enormous, highly-emotional blow that is a mass exodus of schools listed above that have largely been in the league since the Vietnam War-era (or before.)

By contrast, the oldest-extant membership in the Mid-State League from the Ohio schools are Bexley, Columbus Academy, Grandview Heights and Whitehall. (2003.) And the whole point of the Ohio Division created was to both a) reunite the Licking County schools who came in as refugees of the original LCL, c. 1991 (Granville, Heath) with some old pals (Lakewood, Licking Valley) while recognizing the former two were growing, b) give the latter two, plus Bexley/CA/GH a home after their previous conference, the Buckeye Athletic, fell out.

Another 'issue' is some would opine the Buckeye side of the schools have a claim to doing most (if not all) of the legwork for the league when it comes to records-keeping, league administration. That, should not be thought of as "the Ohio is freeloaders" but rather a recognition that the Buckeye schools have a lot of historical skin and ties to the league's existence over time that can't be easily thrown away out of spite (by leaving.) And in the post-Fall 2013 realignment saga we're currently in, the Ohio Division's sustainment was made possible by the Buckeye and Cardinal being team players with who the Ohio schools wanted (addition of Worthington Christian, CSG, to some extent Wellington; the high level of accommodation put toward Ohio Division football, etc.)

That idea just invokes the famous script line from Office Space character Michael Bolton: "why should I have to change my name?..."
 

LCL

Active member
That idea just invokes the famous script line from Office Space character Michael Bolton: "why should I have to change my name?..."
Got another quote for you..."All great changes are preceded by chaos" -Deepak Chopra

If I am the founding members and I'm watching what is happening, why not start up my own league and give my old one more problems. At some point, if you're the one doing the majority of the leg work and it is still not working, then why not jump ship before it sinks. Goes back to the definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over, hoping for a different result
 

The Dock

Well-known member
Got another quote for you..."All great changes are preceded by chaos" -Deepak Chopra

If I am the founding members and I'm watching what is happening, why not start up my own league and give my old one more problems. At some point, if you're the one doing the majority of the leg work and it is still not working, then why not jump ship before it sinks. Goes back to the definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over, hoping for a different result
You're kinda on the right track with your thinking. Just not the right course of action to get there.

The Cardinal fired its shot across the bow. The most amenable situation for all three divisions is to just send Wellington back to the Ohio Division and re-do the rules to write in a guardrail that prevents the situation from happening ever agian.

Or else.
 

gcfqn

Active member
Travel Times in suggested league (from Mechanicsburg, assuming no traffic, but likely will add 15-20 minutes any week night after 4pm)
Columbus Academy- 49 minutes
Grandview Heights- 36 minutes
Grove City Christian- 42 minutes
Worthington Christian- 46 minutes
Bexley- 42 minutes
Bishop Ready- 38 minutes

Travel times in current OHC (no traffic)
Greenon- 36 minutes
Greeneview- 46 minutes
Cedarville- 43 minutes
Southeastern- 31
Madison Plains- 33
Catholic Central- 26 minutes
West Jefferson- 27 minutes
Fairbanks- 18 minutes
Triad- 14 minutes
West Liberty Salem- 23 minutes
Northeastern- 20 minutes

Burg has nothing to gain going to a columbus league. competition doesn't exactly improve. Burg is currently in a league where they don't drive further than 46 minutes for a game, with no other drives being over 36! also, Burg and private schools in Columbus is not a cultural fit, the OHC is. Maybe Burg should schedule Columbus Academy and Bishop Ready in weeks 1/2 sometime?
You are right on with your assessment!
 

RollingTrain

Well-known member
I don't know all( or any) of the ins and outs of MSL politics - but here is a division


Grandview Heights (6:23)
Grove City Christian (7:27)
Worthington Christian (6:23)
Bexley (4:15)
Columbus Academy (5:19)
Bishop Ready (5:19)
Mechanicsburg
Fairbanks
West Jefferson
👀??
No
 

Down The Road

Well-known member
Y not? It wouldn't affect JA?

I'll move on from this I guess. I'm just ready for something new. The way things are constructed currently for the OHC feels stale and I've spent my life with these rivals, I want to spend my golden years hating new schools and their people ;)
 
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RollingTrain

Well-known member
Y not? It wouldn't affect JA?

I'll move on from this I guess. I'm just ready for something new. The way things are constructed currently for the OHC feels stale and I've spent my life with these rivals, I want to spend my golden years hating new schools and their people ;)
Not sure what JA has to do with this....anyway

There's more than just football, and while Mechanicsburg, WJ and Fairbanks don't really fit with this group in that sport, they certainly don't in the others. Bexley, WC and Academy are big in club sports which the above mentioned three have have little presence in. I also don't see Burg people having a big urge to take a trip to WC on a Wednesday afternoon around 4:30. Burg is fine where they are at. WJ and Fairbanks are fine where they are at. While you might want to hate on new schools, the 25 fans they bring aren't much to cheer against.

That being said, the CBC isn't much better. Aside from a few rivalry games, check out a CBC boys or girls basketball game. The visitors side usually has a handful of people at best.
 

Down The Road

Well-known member
Not sure what JA has to do with this....anyway

There's more than just football, and while Mechanicsburg, WJ and Fairbanks don't really fit with this group in that sport, they certainly don't in the others. Bexley, WC and Academy are big in club sports which the above mentioned three have have little presence in. I also don't see Burg people having a big urge to take a trip to WC on a Wednesday afternoon around 4:30. Burg is fine where they are at. WJ and Fairbanks are fine where they are at. While you might want to hate on new schools, the 25 fans they bring aren't much to cheer against.

That being said, the CBC isn't much better. Aside from a few rivalry games, check out a CBC boys or girls basketball game. The visitors side usually has a handful of people at best.

What I highlighted in bold - many Burg folks would working in Columbus, Marysville or London and be able to go that way from work vs driving home and then driving towards the current OHC schools that are to the west or south

Beyond that you're probably right for today anyhow.
 

LCL

Active member
Another, crazy idea is just to combine both the Cardinal and the Ohio, add KIPP and require at least six conference opponents with the 16 teams. Cardinal teams could play Cardinal teams, Ohio teams could play Ohio teams. Plenty of opportunity for "crossover" games given the geographic and school size conundrums. Teams like, Worthington, Grove City, KIPP, Grandview, and Harvest all serve as good "floater" teams. Team with the best conference winning percentage wins the Division. I haven't done the math, but it might work. Just as crazy as adding Mechanicsburg or the CCL I think.
 

The Dock

Well-known member
Another, crazy idea is just to combine both the Cardinal and the Ohio, add KIPP and require at least six conference opponents with the 16 teams. Cardinal teams could play Cardinal teams, Ohio teams could play Ohio teams. Plenty of opportunity for "crossover" games given the geographic and school size conundrums. Teams like, Worthington, Grove City, KIPP, Grandview, and Harvest all serve as good "floater" teams. Team with the best conference winning percentage wins the Division. I haven't done the math, but it might work. Just as crazy as adding Mechanicsburg or the CCL I think.
A super-conference actually might solve some interim issues with football that can extend to a long-term solution for the gridiron. But, with other sports it'd end up being a mess (I can already see a situation where a Cardinal/Ohio merge results in the Cardinal, due to the Ohio not wanting to play Harvest Prep in sports, being forced to bear the cross of playing HPS basketball and baseball -- two levels of competition that exist on the absolute opposite extremes of the competition scales, which is what they already were doing begrudgingly!)
 

WJ-OSU-STEELERS

Well-known member
Down the Road - Yes a new league may seem like a good/fun idea from a football perspective but for all sports - I don't think it would work for all involved. The league you proposed:

Grandview Heights (6:23)
Grove City Christian (7:27) - Replace with KIPP (6:23)
Worthington Christian (6:23)
Bexley (4:15)
Columbus Academy (5:19)
Bishop Ready (5:19)
Mechanicsburg (6:24)
Fairbanks (6:24)
West Jefferson (6:23)

From a football perspective only:
* Would have to remove GCC and replace with KIPP (6:23). GCC would simply have no shot at competing in football or any other sport.
* 9 teams is ok, it means 8 league games with out of conference games in wk 1 and 2. It would be a competitive league, definitely better than the OHC currently is.
* 4 Private schools in KIPP, WC, CA and Ready - You better be ok with a kid showing up as a sophomore or junior at any of these private schools and being the difference in a win/loss vs Mechanicsburg. It's not a question of if it will happen but when and how often.
* In the OHC, Mechanicsburg has 1 game they expect to be tough (WJ) and possibly one or two other games that you realistically could lose (West Liberty-Salem game). In this league, you would have more teams on a weekly basis that can compete and possibly beat the Indians. Academy and Ready would always be tougher than any 3rd or 4th OHC team. Bexley and Grandview will have their years and KIPP appears to be growing rapidly. The depth of quality teams would increase greatly and Mechanicsburg had only 29 kids on the sidelines this year with 10 seniors - depth would definitely be a issue for the Burg unless they have some classes with bigger numbers coming up.

From a all sports perspective:
* Mechanicsburg will do fine in football and be the overwhelming favorite in wrestling.
* Mechanicsburg boys & girls basketball, baseball, softball teams - maybe 3rd, probably 4th or 5th with a good team. Other years, bottom 1/3.
* Country club sports (tennis, golf, soccer) - Grandview just won state in soccer, CA & Bexley are always good. Tennis and golf maybe a kid who could compete every 10 years or so. Team wise, bottom two with WJ every year.
* Mechanicsburg will go to away basketball games with the other school's student section dressed as farmers and mocking you about driving trackers to school - it will happen.
* Mechanicsburg parents will know few, if any of the other schools parents (co-workers, went to school together, etc) at the other schools.
* Driving 45 minutes to Cherry Bottom Road to CA is completely different than driving 45 minutes to say a Madison Plains.
* The Columbus schools have no interest in driving to Gods Country to play schools from towns they never go to in Mechanicsburg or West Jeff. At least WJ is just off Interstate 70 and has Ann & Tony's Restaurant. As for Fairbanks, they would only know about it if they golfed at Darby Creek.

If Mechanicsburg needs a change (I'm sure they are happy with the OHC), just beef up the non-conference games in week 1 & 2. The OHC has mostly good people in it, the grass isn't always greener on the other side.
 

dhsdog06

Well-known member
9 teams doesn't work either. It's not as simple as non league week 1 and 2. Everyone would get a bye in league, so someone would be stuck with week 1 and 10, 1 and 9, 1 and 8, etc.
 

RollingTrain

Well-known member
I can tell you that the Mechanicsburg people I know, and it’s a fair amount, want no part of coming into Columbus to these schools.
 

The Dock

Well-known member
Mechanicsburg playing Bexley and Academy would last all of two years upon the realization you'll have to drive on 670 in the winter on a weeknight for middle school basketball games.
 

Down The Road

Well-known member
Mechanicsburg playing Bexley and Academy would last all of two years upon the realization you'll have to drive on 670 in the winter on a weeknight for middle school basketball games.

Ever hustle down selma pike in January? I guess the people on selma pike are probably way better drivers than those inside 270 though
 

Down The Road

Well-known member
Down the Road - Yes a new league may seem like a good/fun idea from a football perspective but for all sports - I don't think it would work for all involved. The league you proposed:

Grandview Heights (6:23)
Grove City Christian (7:27) - Replace with KIPP (6:23)
Worthington Christian (6:23)
Bexley (4:15)
Columbus Academy (5:19)
Bishop Ready (5:19)
Mechanicsburg (6:24)
Fairbanks (6:24)
West Jefferson (6:23)

From a football perspective only:
* Would have to remove GCC and replace with KIPP (6:23). GCC would simply have no shot at competing in football or any other sport.
* 9 teams is ok, it means 8 league games with out of conference games in wk 1 and 2. It would be a competitive league, definitely better than the OHC currently is.
* 4 Private schools in KIPP, WC, CA and Ready - You better be ok with a kid showing up as a sophomore or junior at any of these private schools and being the difference in a win/loss vs Mechanicsburg. It's not a question of if it will happen but when and how often.
* In the OHC, Mechanicsburg has 1 game they expect to be tough (WJ) and possibly one or two other games that you realistically could lose (West Liberty-Salem game). In this league, you would have more teams on a weekly basis that can compete and possibly beat the Indians. Academy and Ready would always be tougher than any 3rd or 4th OHC team. Bexley and Grandview will have their years and KIPP appears to be growing rapidly. The depth of quality teams would increase greatly and Mechanicsburg had only 29 kids on the sidelines this year with 10 seniors - depth would definitely be a issue for the Burg unless they have some classes with bigger numbers coming up.

From a all sports perspective:
* Mechanicsburg will do fine in football and be the overwhelming favorite in wrestling.
* Mechanicsburg boys & girls basketball, baseball, softball teams - maybe 3rd, probably 4th or 5th with a good team. Other years, bottom 1/3.
* Country club sports (tennis, golf, soccer) - Grandview just won state in soccer, CA & Bexley are always good. Tennis and golf maybe a kid who could compete every 10 years or so. Team wise, bottom two with WJ every year.
* Mechanicsburg will go to away basketball games with the other school's student section dressed as farmers and mocking you about driving trackers to school - it will happen.
* Mechanicsburg parents will know few, if any of the other schools parents (co-workers, went to school together, etc) at the other schools.
* Driving 45 minutes to Cherry Bottom Road to CA is completely different than driving 45 minutes to say a Madison Plains.
* The Columbus schools have no interest in driving to Gods Country to play schools from towns they never go to in Mechanicsburg or West Jeff. At least WJ is just off Interstate 70 and has Ann & Tony's Restaurant. As for Fairbanks, they would only know about it if they golfed at Darby Creek.

If Mechanicsburg needs a change (I'm sure they are happy with the OHC), just beef up the non-conference games in week 1 & 2. The OHC has mostly good people in it, the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

I was thinking from all sports actually - competition is a good thing.
Country club sports - we don't have so I guess I don't care.
Parents not knowing anyone on the other side also don't care
OHC mostly good people ???- exhibit A - JV :poop: @ wls -well I guess you said mostly
You may not follow girls sports about the softball & basketball we'd be more than fine ;) .......Boys you may be right
You forgot bowling 🏆
Kids changing schools in the middle of high school interesting but I don't care
And if the fine people of these schools would mock us for being the salt of the earth folks that we are,..... they would probably need to be ready for a skinny jean, soy latte, woke beat down!! And some Merica shoved in their well moisturized faces!! Thats the part that makes this the most fun for me!!!!
 
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