No Finals in Throws at Invites

[doubtme]

I've noticed even more this year that less invites are using the 3 throws and then finals format. Most have switched to 4 throws at 2 and 2 like a dual meet. As I've asked around you get varying answers.

Some AD'S have straight up said they just want the meet to finish as quickly as possible. Other times they worry about it getting dark for week night invites.

I think that it's actually a negative for athletes, especially since most conference meets and then state tournament meets throw finals. It's good for kids to have to practice routines and the mental side of trying to get to and throwing in finals.

Just some thoughts and I'm curious if anyone here can provide any insight as to why so many invites are moving to the 4 throws format.

 

[psycho_dad]

I was all with you that we need to get the kids used to it for the championship part of the season, but the kids seem to adapt ok. The Elite kids figure it out at their league meet and then at Districts well enough.

You aren't really saving any time with the reduced throws, because there aren't that many fewer throws and once you are over 24 throwers the number of throws is more going 4 for each instead of 3 and finals. The time savings is in the warm ups. So, if you think about it, once you are at about 32 throwers, you really aren't saving any time at all. It would be nice to see the math on how you save time not having 3 throws and 9 to finals. It's more about having the kids ready to throw when they are up. Get in and get out.

Either way. It's not as big a deal as you would think. The kids normally throw their best the first of second throw and there is little if any change once they get to finals. I think that is because we give the kids more warm up time than we used to.

 

[Mr. Slippery]

This is deja vu all over again. Had this discussion about the same time last year:

Lack of field event finals

I have noticed in Northeast Ohio ever since the dawn of covid almost no meets have finals for field events. Even big invitationals like Glenoak and Optimist have fallen victim to this. Is this state wide? Is there any reasoning besides just to get people out of the venue because of covid?

yappi.com

 

[coltfan76]

I was at a meet this year that the discus was the last event to finish without finals.

 

[psycho_dad]

I was at a meet this year that the discus was the last event to finish without finals.

It ebbs and flows. We have had years where we have had only a hand full of thowers and our dual meet throws fly by. This year, we have 26 and had a double dual with over 60 throwers. We try and throw our "JV" throwers before the other teams even show. Typically, throwers are not checking out and running track events, so the Pole Vault is more typically the longest event. Even that event is getting so highly specialized that kids don't check out as much as they used to. Ours do. We rarely have a kid specialize.

Muddy conditions in the Spring don't help either at the Disc. My experience is that kids and coaches have no one to blame but themselves. Taking too much time to get into the ring when it is their turn and wasting time in warm ups. You know who you follow, be ready before they call your name. The last invite we were in took much too long, but the kids and coaches were doing nothing to speed anything up.

 

[doubtme]

I have always found it hard to get good help at the discus as well. I feel like when you have enough people to retrieve (even during warm ups) mark, and pull the tape for the official, it goes much faster. Along with setting a time limit for warm ups and then keeping a solid pace during competition.

However, at more meets this year I have talked with coaches who just want the invites to get over as fast as possible, and noticeably more coaches have said this, which to me also equates to the idea of limiting everything, from no finals in field events to all timed finals in all races. However, I have noticed more coaches fudging times to get their kids in a faster heat or a more competitive flight.

 

[psycho_dad]

The issue I have with the discus is that the people marking too often stand outside the sector lines. I stood directly in the middle. This past weekend, they had too many people and they would stand at 80 feet for a 170 ft thrower. Then come back to 80 feet on his second throw. It was a relay so they marked the best of each set of two throws, but they missed a few better throws or mismarked because they were too far away and too slow to get the the mark and took their eyes off the mark.

I still don't think it's any faster going 4 throws and no finals once you are past 24 throwers.

What are the thoughts on 5 alive in the jumps?

 

[Altor]

What are the thoughts on 5 alive in the jumps?

Five-alive doesn't affect the speed of the event in any way. What it does, is makes sure that an athlete will be up again fairly shortly after a missed attempt. The athlete stays "warm" this way, and they also have any coaching advice regarding the previous attempt fresh in their minds. At a meet with 30+ jumpers, it could easily be 30 minutes between jumps at the same height if they aren't doing 5-alive.

 

[psycho_dad]

Five-alive doesn't affect the speed of the event in any way. What it does, is makes sure that an athlete will be up again fairly shortly after a missed attempt. The athlete stays "warm" this way, and they also have any coaching advice regarding the previous attempt fresh in their minds. At a meet with 30+ jumpers, it could easily be 30 minutes between jumps at the same height if they aren't doing 5-alive.

I do not like the number of mistakes made. I know there shouldn't be mistakes, but I see it all the time. No good way to correct them.

 

[Altor]

Happy to debate this, but this is a thread about throws, not jumps.

 

[JAVMAN83]

I have always found it hard to get good help at the discus as well. I feel like when you have enough people to retrieve (even during warm ups) mark, and pull the tape for the official, it goes much faster. Along with setting a time limit for warm ups and then keeping a solid pace during competition.

However, at more meets this year I have talked with coaches who just want the invites to get over as fast as possible, and noticeably more coaches have said this, which to me also equates to the idea of limiting everything, from no finals in field events to all timed finals in all races. However, I have noticed more coaches fudging times to get their kids in a faster heat or a more competitive flight.

Coaches fudging times? Say it ain't so!

Yes, good help is difficult to find. However, limiting the warm-up is key. Should be no longer than 15 minutes for any flight. When I officiated both HS & college, I always eyed the flight to see if they were looking like they were done with warm-ups. Frequently they were ready after 9-10 minutes of warm-up, and I would proceed to ask OUT LOUD IS EVERYONE FINISHED WARMING-UP? Usually, there were a couple that asked for one or two more, then I'd say yes and then END the warm-up. As a former thrower myself, 4 throws is more than adequate to get fully warmed-up. The big mistake kids (and their coaches) make is not doing most of the warm-up outside of the ring or runway (javelin). A kid should already be ready to go by the time they step into the circle for their 1st warm-up throw. Period. Anything else is laziness.

 

[NEOYO]

Instead of going by time, I believe the invites should limit the throwers to 4 warm up throws. You want to take 3 discs or two shots at a time, that's fine just know you'll be cut off the next time. Nothing is worse than seeing a line of 15 throwers and a kid taking 3 powers in a row in disc. That's what kills the timing. The officials not watching warmups and having no idea where an athlete is gonna throw also hurts. If you pay attention in the warmups you can almost guess where its going to land which saves a lot of time.