Miami Valley League 2021-22

radroby

Active member
Where have you been vamps?vamps is fair and correct. My son gets pumped when he plays GCL teams

I had a question if you knew of anything about the let go principal and the reason why. :)
 

ButlerParent

Active member
Agre
Agree 100% about the validity of numbers as a firm criteria. There are 2 regional leagues beside the MAC that are year in year out competitive that would give MVL teams fits in major sports: WBL. & GCL Coed for starts. You can quibble about each but the numbers are < = to MVL schools. Between the lines rules are the same.
Using a private school league as an example is funny. Why cant the GWOC be as good as the GCL? Who has more titles? Terrible example.

MVL schools should play WBL schools and sometimes do. Cant make sense of what you say at the end.
 

petroglyph

Well-known member
Using a private school league as an example is funny. Why cant the GWOC be as good as the GCL? Who has more titles? Terrible example.

MVL schools should play WBL schools and sometimes do. Cant make sense of what you say at the end.
My point was about using numbers as criteria. So listed 2 competitive leagues in the area based on schools with even lower enrollments than MVL schools. Said 0 about titles. Pointedly the last part isn't obscure- once the game starts the rules are the same. Every school is free to cherry pick a league that satisfies its needs. You can then play a like numbered school in multi divisional playoffs. Sooner or later, however you got to play the actual game. Some towns, certain schools schools show up with uncomfortable regularity for the others, thus the constant mewling about the ohsaa. Fwiw there is a difference, a large difference, between private vs parochial schools.
 

shoprat2

Active member
Who do you replace them with? Gotta have an even number of schools in the league. Fairborn does seem to be down real bad right now for a school of their size
Everybody knew what Fairborn was when they took them. Now you have buyers remorse?
 

shoprat2

Active member
There is a solution here. The problem seems to be a lack of tournament success for MVL teams. One side says playing and losing to GWOC teams will bring tournament wins. The surest way to get tournament wins is too add more divisions,fb has 7 divisions why not basketball?Then you would only play schools your size. If MVL teams don’t win you can just add more divisions until you do finally win.
 

Flevans

Active member
There is a solution here. The problem seems to be a lack of tournament success for MVL teams. One side says playing and losing to GWOC teams will bring tournament wins. The surest way to get tournament wins is too add more divisions,fb has 7 divisions why not basketball?Then you would only play schools your size. If MVL teams don’t win you can just add more divisions until you do finally win.

At the very least Division 1 in basketball should be the same as in football. You could then distribute the rest of the schools into three divisions even though they would be much bigger than they are currently. Or just add a 5th division comprised of the D1 football schools.

There are 121 D1 basketball schools that are D2 in football. None of them have won a state title in the last decade. In SW Ohio, I believe only 3 of the last 40 (10 years worth) of district champions have come from D2 football schools. The argument is that enrollment doesn't matter in basketball because you only need five guys. The data does not support that assertion.
 

ButlerParent

Active member
My point was about using numbers as criteria. So listed 2 competitive leagues in the area based on schools with even lower enrollments than MVL schools. Said 0 about titles. Pointedly the last part isn't obscure- once the game starts the rules are the same. Every school is free to cherry pick a league that satisfies its needs. You can then play a like numbered school in multi divisional playoffs. Sooner or later, however you got to play the actual game. Some towns, certain schools schools show up with uncomfortable regularity for the others, thus the constant mewling about the ohsaa. Fwiw there is a difference, a large difference, between private vs parochial schools.
The WBL is no better than the MVL. They are about the same.

In Ohio they have divisions for all sports. Why is that? I mean once the game starts they have to PLAY THE GAME. So why have divisions I guess. Numbers mean nothing. Rules are the same once the game starts.

Definite difference between private and public.
 

ButlerParent

Active member
There is a solution here. The problem seems to be a lack of tournament success for MVL teams. One side says playing and losing to GWOC teams will bring tournament wins. The surest way to get tournament wins is too add more divisions,fb has 7 divisions why not basketball?Then you would only play schools your size. If MVL teams don’t win you can just add more divisions until you do finally win.
MVL arent complaining about success on here. None of the MVL people on here complained. GWOC people got on here and complained. They want the MVL schools to play them instead of playing other MVL schools. Agendas. No one from Butler or Tipp is complaining. Huber and Gwoc people are.
 

radroby

Active member
Give me a break. There isn't much excitement about MVL sports.

Combined record of Fairborn football & basketball teams this season: 2-54!
 
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ButlerParent

Active member
Give me a break. There isn't much excitement about MVL sports.

Combined record of Fairborn football & basketball teams this season: 2-54!
Beavercreek has 900 boys and went 0-10 in football. Lost to Xenia Franklin Dunbar.

Springboro wins 9 basketball games this year and six were against Butler Franklin Little Miami Lebanon Troy Xenia.

Last year in basketball tourney GWOC thats not Centerville beat Tecumseh Sidney Butler Xenia West Carrolton Piqua Lebanon Lost to Moeller St X all other wins against GWOC schools. Beat up on small schools lost to schools there size.

2021 GWOC football not named Springfield went 2-6 in postseason. Two wins were over Northmont and Springboro fellow GWOC schools. No one else in GWOC could beat a nonGWOC team.

Outside of Centerville basketball no one cares about the GWOC. Maybe they need to take there own advice and play tougher schools their own size like GCL GMC and Columbus schools so they dont do so bad. Stop worrying about MVL schools and fix the GWOC.
 
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radroby

Active member
Greeneville had a combined 11 wins in Football & basketball. Five were against Fairborn! Oh! feel the excitement!

Sidney fished 4th in baseball but flies a Valley Championship banner. How does this make any sense???

Drop two bad teams. Go to 8 team conference. Football could play 2 more out of conference games and hoops could do 4. How is that not better?

I will give some props to ButlerParent. At least he isn't a delusional parent, which there are quite a few, who think is kid will get a D1 scholarship with any kind of success in this league.
 
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Flevans

Active member
At the very least Division 1 in basketball should be the same as in football. You could then distribute the rest of the schools into three divisions even though they would be much bigger than they are currently. Or just add a 5th division comprised of the D1 football schools.

There are 121 D1 basketball schools that are D2 in football. None of them have won a state title in the last decade. In SW Ohio, I believe only 3 of the last 40 (10 years worth) of district champions have come from D2 football schools. The argument is that enrollment doesn't matter in basketball because you only need five guys. The data does not support that assertion.

Just to update - there were 52 Division 1 schools in the SW District. 26 are D1 football, 26 are D2 football. Once again, all four District Champions are D1 football schools. Seven of the eight District finalists were D1 football schools. It's silly to pretend that enrollment doesn't matter in basketball.
 
And the one D2 football school that made it lost to Wayne by 17.

I guess Turpin and all those ECC teams need to cut half their conference games and play more GMC and GCL schools if we're using the MVL/GWOC logic, right? :rolleyes:
 

ButlerParent

Active member
And the one D2 football school that made it lost to Wayne by 17.

I guess Turpin and all those ECC teams need to cut half their conference games and play more GMC and GCL schools if we're using the MVL/GWOC logic, right? :rolleyes:
Look at how the GWOC did. They need to stop playing MVL schools and play Columbus and Cincinnati schools so they dont all get knocked out of the tourney so fast.
 

ButlerParent

Active member
??????

GWOC Hoops had 3 teams in the regional finals and they rarely play MVL teams.
Wins by GWOC teams not named Centerville in the tourney that are not other GWOC teams:
Butler
Lima Senior
Troy
West Carrolton
Franklin
Turpin
Xenia
Stebbins
Sycamore

They got to the regional finals by beating MVL teams and GWOC teams. Once they had to play outside of the area they got beat. All those schools are D2 or D3 in football except Sycamore. There were 12 games between GWOC and MVL teams in regular season.
 

vamp2syd

Well-known member
MVL arent complaining about success on here. None of the MVL people on here complained. GWOC people got on here and complained. They want the MVL schools to play them instead of playing other MVL schools. Agendas. No one from Butler or Tipp is complaining. Huber and Gwoc people are.

What are they complaining about?

You are the one complaining..... You don't like that the MVL schools are bunched in with the GWOC schools come tourney time. Just like the ECC schools are bunched in with the GMC schools in the tourney and all over the state it is the same way. You want to find fault with others than within. You came on here and criticized GWOC teams stating they could not beat Cincy teams, well you stuck your foot in your mouth on that one as all 3 GWOC schools beat the Cincy counterparts in the District Finals.

I'm sure those in Tipp welcome the challenges of playing GWOC schools and I am sure that most of the kids on the MVL schools also welcome the challenge. It is some of you parents including you that get all butt hurt and find excuses why your program is not successful instead of looking at the real reason. The MVL for the most part was not very good this year. Plain and simple.
 

vamp2syd

Well-known member
Beavercreek has 900 boys and went 0-10 in football. Lost to Xenia Franklin Dunbar.

Springboro wins 9 basketball games this year and six were against Butler Franklin Little Miami Lebanon Troy Xenia.

Last year in basketball tourney GWOC thats not Centerville beat Tecumseh Sidney Butler Xenia West Carrolton Piqua Lebanon Lost to Moeller St X all other wins against GWOC schools. Beat up on small schools lost to schools there size.

2021 GWOC football not named Springfield went 2-6 in postseason. Two wins were over Northmont and Springboro fellow GWOC schools. No one else in GWOC could beat a nonGWOC team.

Outside of Centerville basketball no one cares about the GWOC. Maybe they need to take there own advice and play tougher schools their own size like GCL GMC and Columbus schools so they dont do so bad. Stop worrying about MVL schools and fix the GWOC.

and when a smaller school beats up on MVL schools you kick them out of the league.......
 

vamp2syd

Well-known member
And the one D2 football school that made it lost to Wayne by 17.

I guess Turpin and all those ECC teams need to cut half their conference games and play more GMC and GCL schools if we're using the MVL/GWOC logic, right? :rolleyes:

The ECC play 6 non-conference games.....

Turpin defeated Elder not once, but twice this season. They also defeated one of the bigger schools in the state in Mason. They defeated Walnut Hills by 21 points, a team that was in the Regions in D1. Turpin would of ran the table in the MVL no problem and they don't complain about who they have to play in the tourney. Wayne was a bad match-up for them.

Turpin made it to the district finals because of the work ethic of the program and without the excuses of those few posters on here from the MVL.

The MVL should go to just one league or have a format of only 13 league games (home/away against teams in your conference and 1 game each crossover). That would open up 9 non-league opportunities to play non-GWOC schools that gives a better variety and greater excitement during the season. nobody likes playing the same schools over and over.
 
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vamp2syd

Well-known member
Look at how the GWOC did. They need to stop playing MVL schools and play Columbus and Cincinnati schools so they dont all get knocked out of the tourney so fast.

The GWOC does play Cincy schools and Columbus schools during the regular season. You do not know what you are talking about and the GWOC teams did not get knocked out of the tourney quickly..... lol, do you even believe the crap you are saying here...... maybe you should get a job at CNN. you'd fit right in.
 

vamp2syd

Well-known member
Wins by GWOC teams not named Centerville in the tourney that are not other GWOC teams:
Butler
Lima Senior
Troy
West Carrolton
Franklin
Turpin
Xenia
Stebbins
Sycamore

They got to the regional finals by beating MVL teams and GWOC teams. Once they had to play outside of the area they got beat. All those schools are D2 or D3 in football except Sycamore. There were 12 games between GWOC and MVL teams in regular season.

Wrong again........................... First of all, the poster was referring to the regular season. The GWOC teams do not choose to play MVL schools in the tourney, the tourney is a draw and the MVL schools are the ones who place their names next to GWOC teams in most cases.

The GWOC schools did not beat 1 MVL school to get to the regionals, they defeated Sycamore, a GMC school, Lakota West, a GMC school, and Turpin an ECC school. Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. They did not all get beat when playing out of the area. They went 4-1 with wins over Sycamore, West, Turpin, and Fairfield. All those schools except Turpin are D1 in Football. Turpin defeated 2 D1 Football schools to reach the District Finals.
 
The ECC play 6 non-conference games.....

Turpin defeated Elder not once, but twice this season. They also defeated one of the bigger schools in the state in Mason. They defeated Walnut Hills by 21 points, a team that was in the Regions in D1. Turpin would of ran the table in the MVL no problem and they don't complain about who they have to play in the tourney. Wayne was a bad match-up for them.

Turpin made it to the Regionals because of the work ethic of the program and without the excuses of those few posters on here from the MVL.

The MVL should go to just one league or have a format of only 13 league games (home/away against teams in your conference and 1 game each crossover). That would open up 9 non-league opportunities to play non-GWOC schools that gives a better variety and greater excitement during the season. nobody likes playing the same schools over and over.
No, Turpin didn't make it to regionals. Your Wayne Warriors beat them by 17 in a district final!

And FYI Led Zepplin, nobody in this thread or in the MVL gives two rats about your opinions on the subject.
 

vamp2syd

Well-known member
No, Turpin didn't make it to regionals. Your Wayne Warriors beat them by 17 in a district final!

And FYI Led Zepplin, nobody in this thread or in the MVL gives two rats about your opinions on the subject.

My mistake..... typo, what ever..... district final game. Turpin did what it needed to get there including beating a school that has 3 times the enrollment.

lol, Led Zepplin.... not sure where that came from..... and as for my opinion. If no one in this thread cares about my opinion then why all the responses then????

I am assuming you are a Sidney fan so I will ask you. Are you happy being in the Valley part of the MVL when you should be in the Miami part. I mean, The ties with Piqua, Troy, and Butler but you get left out and a CBC school Tipp takes your place. If everyone plays each other twice just make it one league with 1 champion. The fact you guys crown 2 champions is laughable. Change the format or go to just one league.

Beef up your non-league schedule Sidney and maybe a disappointing one and done won't happen again. Sidney used to be a power back in the day and dominated the Hobart Sectionals.
 

ButlerParent

Active member
What are they complaining about?

You are the one complaining..... You don't like that the MVL schools are bunched in with the GWOC schools come tourney time. Just like the ECC schools are bunched in with the GMC schools in the tourney and all over the state it is the same way. You want to find fault with others than within. You came on here and criticized GWOC teams stating they could not beat Cincy teams, well you stuck your foot in your mouth on that one as all 3 GWOC schools beat the Cincy counterparts in the District Finals.

I'm sure those in Tipp welcome the challenges of playing GWOC schools and I am sure that most of the kids on the MVL schools also welcome the challenge. It is some of you parents including you that get all butt hurt and find excuses why your program is not successful instead of looking at the real reason. The MVL for the most part was not very good this year. Plain and simple.
Read the thread GWOC people got on here complained and cried. Its right there so read it.

Dont get mad at the MVL because your team flopped this year. You are on this thread for some reason. I said that stuff about GWOC teams because GWOC posters got on here about MVL kids. Again READ!!!!!

Outside of Centerville GWOC was not good this year plain and simple. Elks choked last night anyways. Their fans arent on here attacking the MVL though so they have class.
 

ButlerParent

Active member
Wrong again........................... First of all, the poster was referring to the regular season. The GWOC teams do not choose to play MVL schools in the tourney, the tourney is a draw and the MVL schools are the ones who place their names next to GWOC teams in most cases.

The GWOC schools did not beat 1 MVL school to get to the regionals, they defeated Sycamore, a GMC school, Lakota West, a GMC school, and Turpin an ECC school. Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. They did not all get beat when playing out of the area. They went 4-1 with wins over Sycamore, West, Turpin, and Fairfield. All those schools except Turpin are D1 in Football. Turpin defeated 2 D1 Football schools to reach the District Finals.
Think you mean to say Centerville did that. Outside the Elks GWOC flopped. The rest of your post is just made up stuff.

Outside of Centerville (which is what I said) who did GWOC beat? My post shows it. I know the truth hurts but dont embarrass yourself on the MVL threads.
 

Zezzo!

Well-known member
The size thing is a problem to you, but you need to go through them to get what you want. Why wouldn't you play them, why wouldn't you try to compete with them.

Big Wins:
Last Year:
Miamisburg- District Finals
Huber Heights- District Finals
Centerville- State Champs

19-20
Centerville- District champs
Springboro- District Finals
Beavercreek- District Finals

that is 6 teams the last two years that have made the district finals. If you ask me that is pretty good for any league.
That is true and a fact however, for years the D1 tournament has always been GWOC teams but it us now split(D1 tourney) with the MVL which is old GWOC teams with the exception of Franklin, Tecumseh and Belmont so a team from GWOC had to win Districts it's all GWOC teams. In the Dayton D1 tourney or the GWOC invitational has never been strong since the early 2000's. In contrast, D2 is deeper and better. Alter, Trotwood, Dunbar, CJ, Thurgood Marshall, and even Graham which was coached by current the Centerville coach, has either won or been to state within the past 15 years. There is no diversity of good teams in D1 in Dayton. Centerville, Wayne and occasionally Springfield will always get to regionals. Fairmont was good this season but this was their 2nd regional in 70 years.
 

vamp2syd

Well-known member
Read the thread GWOC people got on here complained and cried. Its right there so read it.

Dont get mad at the MVL because your team flopped this year. You are on this thread for some reason. I said that stuff about GWOC teams because GWOC posters got on here about MVL kids. Again READ!!!!!

Outside of Centerville GWOC was not good this year plain and simple. Elks choked last night anyways. Their fans arent on here attacking the MVL though so they have class.

Are NWWarrior and LetsGoBig GWOC??? I dunno... just asking. All they did was give an opinion as to why the MVL did not do good in the tourney and that they do not like the MVL setup. I don't like it either......

I'm not mad at the MVL and I am not sure who you think my team is. If you are referring to Wayne though they did not flop in the tourney and they surpassed my expectations of what they did this season. I had them as a .500 team and losing in Sectionals. Just so you know I follow the MAC and SCAL schools as well as the GWOC schools plus Sidney, Troy, and Piqua.

So basically you are admitting that you were stooping to the level of the posters on here you were complaining about by stating non truths?

I had said several times that the GWOC was way down outside of Centerville and Fairmont and that is why I was shocked by how easily the GWOC teams dismantled the MVL schools. To me, that shows how down the MVL was as well.
 

vamp2syd

Well-known member
Think you mean to say Centerville did that. Outside the Elks GWOC flopped. The rest of your post is just made up stuff.

Outside of Centerville (which is what I said) who did GWOC beat? My post shows it. I know the truth hurts but dont embarrass yourself on the MVL threads.

Centerville defeated Lakota West to get to regionals
Fairmont defeated Sycamore to get to regionals (#2 seed in Cincy)
Wayne defeated Turpin to get to regionals (Turpin defeated the #1 seed in Cincy to get there)

So out of all the GMC, ECC, CMAC, and SWOC schools only 1 of them made it to regional while 3 GWOC schools made it. If it makes you feel better than continue to post the fake news.....
 
My mistake..... typo, what ever..... district final game. Turpin did what it needed to get there including beating a school that has 3 times the enrollment.

lol, Led Zepplin.... not sure where that came from..... and as for my opinion. If no one in this thread cares about my opinion then why all the responses then????

I am assuming you are a Sidney fan so I will ask you. Are you happy being in the Valley part of the MVL when you should be in the Miami part. I mean, The ties with Piqua, Troy, and Butler but you get left out and a CBC school Tipp takes your place. If everyone plays each other twice just make it one league with 1 champion. The fact you guys crown 2 champions is laughable. Change the format or go to just one league.

Beef up your non-league schedule Sidney and maybe a disappointing one and done won't happen again. Sidney used to be a power back in the day and dominated the Hobart Sectionals.
Sidney has a trophy case full of Valley Division titles. It would have a fraction of Miami Division titles. Competitively, it is a far better fit. They can't hang with Troy, Tipp and Butler in most sports most years. Never have.

And what division you're in doesn't really matter much, because an overall champion (that means both divisions) is crowned each year (which Sidney boys have won 2 of 3 years).

And Sidney never "dominated," anything, including the Hobart sectional. They've gotten to a district final exactly twice since 1970, the last time of which was 22 years ago.

And speaking of tournament success Led Zepplin, once again I ask, if playing tough nonconference is so important and playing in a tough league is so important, why did all those good Sidney, Xenia and Fairborn teams in their final years as GWOC members never make a district final? They all played very tough schedules, were good teams with stars, yet none in the five or so year stretch could manage to win 3 measly games against the biggest Dayton D1 schools necessary to make a district final.

And if they can't do it in those years, why, when they don't have anywhere near the talent, should they be playing Centerville and Wayne on some random winter Saturday and get their brains beat in? Troy played Fairmont this year and lost by 40. What good did it do them?

And people respond to your posts not because they care about what you think, but because they're tired of ignoramuses trying to push the narrative.
 

vamp2syd

Well-known member
Sidney has a trophy case full of Valley Division titles. It would have a fraction of Miami Division titles. Competitively, it is a far better fit. They can't hang with Troy, Tipp and Butler in most sports most years. Never have.

And what division you're in doesn't really matter much, because an overall champion (that means both divisions) is crowned each year (which Sidney boys have won 2 of 3 years).

And Sidney never "dominated," anything, including the Hobart sectional. They've gotten to a district final exactly twice since 1970, the last time of which was 22 years ago.

And speaking of tournament success Led Zepplin, once again I ask, if playing tough nonconference is so important and playing in a tough league is so important, why did all those good Sidney, Xenia and Fairborn teams in their final years as GWOC members never make a district final? They all played very tough schedules, were good teams with stars, yet none in the five or so year stretch could manage to win 3 measly games against the biggest Dayton D1 schools necessary to make a district final.

And if they can't do it in those years, why, when they don't have anywhere near the talent, should they be playing Centerville and Wayne on some random winter Saturday and get their brains beat in? Troy played Fairmont this year and lost by 40. What good did it do them?

And people respond to your posts not because they care about what you think, but because they're tired of ignoramuses trying to push the narrative.

So it is a better fit for Sidney because they win more.... got it. Basically, the competition is less..... It's too tough so we will play lesser competition in order to be successful.

Distance wise, that is pretty far drive for Sidney fans to travel for league games but OK, I get it.

So, you are stating that there is an overall champion. That is good and that Sidney has won it twice out of the last 3 years. Then to me sounds like they are competing very well against Troy, Piqua, and Butler.

Well, you predate me when going back to the 70's at Hobart. I went in the 80's and Sidney was always a tough out and beat Wayne more than a few times. Butler also was very tough.......

Playing a variety of opponents in the regular season should benefit a school in tourney time. As a fan, are you fine playing the same schools over and over again in each sport or would you like some variety. I hated the WOL because it was the same schools every year. To me, it is exciting going up against a school that have never met or hadn't met in a long time.

2019 was the last season the MVL schools were in the GWOC. Butler in that year went 2-0 against current GWOC teams in the regular season but fell in the 2nd round to Fairmont who went on to the District Finals. Sidney went 1-0 against GWOC teams and that was against Wayne and also beat a current GWOC team in the tourney in springboro before dropping a sectional final game to Springfield in a close game.

2018 Butler was 1-0 against current GWOC schools but lost in the 1sr round to Fairmont. Sidney went 0-1 against current GWOC schools in the regular season but defeated one in the tourney before losing a 1 point loss to Springfield in the sectional finals.

So in those two last seasons the MVL schools were not forced to play many if any regular season games against current GWOC schools and for the most part held their own when playing the bigger schools.

So what has happened since 2018, 2019 to now where on a very down year in the GWOC the GWOC schools beat the MVL schools by 30+ points?
 
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