How many games do 9-16 teams need to win to validate 16 teams?

smitty1974

Active member
We got one at least. #16 Edison won the rematch against Bellevue, 23-22..
looks like we matched up with bellevue pretty well.we lost the first meeting 21-14. i cant wait to see stats on this game cause pass defense and turnovers and penalties have hurt edison all year. i want to see the pass stats for bellevue to see if they took advantage of our pass defense.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
looks like we matched up with bellevue pretty well.we lost the first meeting 21-14. i cant wait to see stats on this game cause pass defense and turnovers and penalties have hurt edison all year. i want to see the pass stats for bellevue to see if they took advantage of our pass defense.

I'll probably watch that one on replay tomorrow. I peeked at the score one-time, edison was up 23 - 16. I wonder did Bellevue go fot the 2-points and miss or just miss the kick.
 

smitty1974

Active member
I'll probably watch that one on replay tomorrow. I peeked at the score one-time, edison was up 23 - 16. I wonder did Bellevue go fot the 2-points and miss or just miss the kick.
no the score was 23-14 when bellevue scored the td and 2pt extra point with 1:!2 left to make it 23-22. bellevue went for onsides kick but edison recovers and runs the clock out. eastisbest this game wont be on until 730 pm tommorrow night on bcsn erie county.
 
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NLLBEST

Active member
There will always be upsets, that’s not the issue. Everyone should be happy for teams like Edison who can pull off something like they did today. I can think of four problems most people have with 16 teams. One, we are rewarding mediocrity with a lot of 4-6 or worse teams making the playoffs now, no teams were going to be 10-0 or 9-1 and miss the playoffs with 12 teams per region. Second, the value of regular season games has been greatly diminished, I actually think the Edison win today in a rematch against Bellevue helps prove that. Third, the reason for a playoff is to find the best team in each region, if you finish 13th or worse you aren’t winning the region and in my opinion don’t deserve that chance. Lastly for every upset that happened today or will happen tomorrow you can find twice as many 30+ point blowouts that weren’t fun for either side and honestly weren’t safe in some instances.
 

Joe Schmo

Active member
For what its worth, tonight more than proved the worth of going to 16 teams. Yes there were some rough games to watch but plenty of upsets and good games.

I agree with the switch
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
no the score was 23-14 when bellevue scored the td and 2pt extra point with 1:!2 left to make it 23-22. bellevue went for onsides kick but edison recovers and runs the clock out. eastisbest this game wont be on until 730 pm tommorrow night on bcsn erie county.
well you just ruined the ending for me, lol.

joking. I'm in Toledo and can already watch it on-line since I'm using their cable.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
For what its worth, tonight more than proved the worth of going to 16 teams. Yes there were some rough games to watch but plenty of upsets and good games.

I agree with the switch

I think I would have to balance that with what could have been scheduled with the additional week or how better prepared teams might have been with the extra week of practice and scrimmage and would want to see attendance and revenue figures. Mostly I'd want to see a little feedback from those playing. I'm not in the "proven" camp without more information.
 

kingpin2010

Well-known member
So here’s the 1 vs 16 scores in divisions 2-4:

D2:
23-16
57-0
24-20
49-7

D3:
38-7
28-21
36-14
37-0

D4:
45-8
23-22* 16 seed win
49-0
50-0

So at least 1 close game in each division, a 16 seed upset. Far from the 70-80 point bludgeonings with a constant stream of stretchers that some were predicting to happen.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
So here’s the 1 vs 16 scores in divisions 2-4:

D2:
23-16
57-0
24-20
49-7

D3:
38-7
28-21
36-14
37-0

D4:
45-8
23-22* 16 seed win
49-0
50-0

So at least 1 close game in each division, a 16 seed upset. Far from the 70-80 point bludgeonings with a constant stream of stretchers that some were predicting to happen.

I will guarantee you those large score differential games could have been 70-80 point bludgeonings with a constant stream of stretchers. That was all up to the winning team coaches. I think if you compare half-time scores to final scores, you'll see those 16th teams got really good, really fast. ;)
 

kingpin2010

Well-known member
I will guarantee you those large score differential games could have been 70-80 point bludgeonings with a constant stream of stretchers. That was all up to the winning team coaches. I think if you compare half-time scores to final scores, you'll see those 16th teams got really good, really fast. ;)
Sure, but it was always going to be like that and quite frankly it’s not much different than when only 8 teams made it, 40+ point blow-outs happened frequently then.
 

NLLBEST

Active member
Seeds 1-4 vs 13-16 in D1-4
64 games
36 30+ point wins
7 Upsets
21 regular losses

D1
10 Running Clocks
1 Upset

D2
11 Running Clocks
2 Upsets

D3
6 Running Clocks
3 Upsets

D4
9 Running Clocks
1 Upset
 

simkon

Well-known member
Seeds 1-4 vs 13-16 in D1-4
64 games
36 30+ point wins
7 Upsets
21 regular losses

D1
10 Running Clocks
1 Upset

D2
11 Running Clocks
2 Upsets

D3
6 Running Clocks
3 Upsets

D4
9 Running Clocks
1 Upset
D-III had 7 running clocks for all intents and purposes. Canfield had a 35-0 lead at half and was up 42-0 when they put all the reserves in early in the 3rd quarter, ND-CL 1st teamers finally scored twice with a couple minutes left in the 4th quarter on the deep reserves. Canfield could have easily won 70-0 if they wanted. And this probably happened in more games than just this one.
 

NLLBEST

Active member
D-III had 7 running clocks for all intents and purposes. Canfield had a 35-0 lead at half and was up 42-0 when they put all the reserves in early in the 3rd quarter, ND-CL 1st teamers finally scored twice with a couple minutes left in the 4th quarter on the deep reserves. Canfield could have easily won 70-0 if they wanted. And this probably happened in more games than just this one.
Yes, good point. I should have just said those games all were 30+ point losses. You can get to a running clock and then back to regular play.
 

LetsGoQuakers

Active member
Region 1
#1-#7 all win
#9 upsets #8

Region 2
#1#2 #4-#8 Win
#14 upsets #3

Region 3
#1-#7 win
#9 upsets #8

Region 4
#1-#4 win #6-#8 win
#12 upsets #5
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
Sure, but it was always going to be like that and quite frankly it’s not much different than when only 8 teams made it, 40+ point blow-outs happened frequently then.

No, it was a lot different. It was what you would expect in a 1-16 game vs a 1-8 game for the most part. I'm not saying I'm against the 1-16. I'm looking at the numbers and not rosy coating it. I don't need to because I'm not against the 1-16. As I've posted, the bottom line is did the lower seeds appreciate the extra game or did they feel forced into something they didn't want. Would they have been better to be given the option to schedule a competitive game, while others went on to play-offs.

I know urban more than the other and there's a reality. A D2 urban is not a D2 suburban in butts in the seats numbers, let alone number even remotely capable of playing sports. I've not looked at data for the three C's but locally in Toledo, there is a notable component of student population that do not even have homes. That are working for living money, not spending money. That aren't even going to school but have to be on some school's ledger by law. So when a city urban not Glenville goes into a competition with an economically and socially sound district, it's dejure D2-D2 but defacto D5 to D7 playing a D2.

Urbans are more likely to have lost to Covid. The opportunity to make up a game against a competitive opponent might be much more attractive than a game, probabaly some distance aways against a far superior and larger school. I think OHSAA should get the feedback before deciding what has been a success and what has not.
 
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eastisbest

Well-known member
A 16 beat a 1! It’s never going away! And a 15-2 upset!
I would imagine they were one of the rare 16 seeds with a winning record and from the same conference as the 1 seed? They had only lost to that #1 by a td in regular season.

Who was the upset?
 

Ericles

Active member
By my count there were only 4 out of 16 regions where the top 8 advanced.

And also by my count, there were 10 double digit seeds that won.
 
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I can understand the argument for div1. Each region only has 17-18 teams and you end up which 10-0 or 9-1 playing a 1-9 or 0-10, not fun. However for lower divisions with 24-27 teams per region this increase in playoff spots allow for a tougher schedule against higher divisions more competitive teams. I think Alter was a good example of this. They scheduled Fairmont(d1), Hoban(d2), and Miamisburg(d1) along with a semi - tough league schedule. Ended the regular season at 5-5 and snuck in at the #15 seed. In their playoff game they upsetted the #2 Monroe who had a fairly easy schedule. If anything, this expansion will make for a much more entertaining regular season for all, as teams will begin to schedule harder competition more frequently.
 

Sykotyk

Well-known member
I will guarantee you those large score differential games could have been 70-80 point bludgeonings with a constant stream of stretchers. That was all up to the winning team coaches. I think if you compare half-time scores to final scores, you'll see those 16th teams got really good, really fast. ;)
So the argument against more teams in the playoffs is that football coaches are such horrible people as to not be trusted with students bodies and lives?

I know that was in jest, but that seems to be the argument some really do make.

Which doesn't bode well for the future of the sport if the argument made to make it safer is to just play less of it and be leary of those making the decisions in the games.
 

yakyak

Well-known member
There will always be upsets, that’s not the issue. Everyone should be happy for teams like Edison who can pull off something like they did today. I can think of four problems most people have with 16 teams. One, we are rewarding mediocrity with a lot of 4-6 or worse teams making the playoffs now, no teams were going to be 10-0 or 9-1 and miss the playoffs with 12 teams per region. Second, the value of regular season games has been greatly diminished, I actually think the Edison win today in a rematch against Bellevue helps prove that. Third, the reason for a playoff is to find the best team in each region, if you finish 13th or worse you aren’t winning the region and in my opinion don’t deserve that chance. Lastly for every upset that happened today or will happen tomorrow you can find twice as many 30+ point blowouts that weren’t fun for either side and honestly weren’t safe in some instances.
The whole logic off 16v1 being unsafe comment is really off. What makes the post season more risky than the exact same regular season situation?

There is not a single PLAYER on a 16 scared of injury. Adults making up dumb things again.
 

4GX

Well-known member
There will always be upsets, that’s not the issue. Everyone should be happy for teams like Edison who can pull off something like they did today. I can think of four problems most people have with 16 teams. One, we are rewarding mediocrity with a lot of 4-6 or worse teams making the playoffs now, no teams were going to be 10-0 or 9-1 and miss the playoffs with 12 teams per region. Second, the value of regular season games has been greatly diminished, I actually think the Edison win today in a rematch against Bellevue helps prove that. Third, the reason for a playoff is to find the best team in each region, if you finish 13th or worse you aren’t winning the region and in my opinion don’t deserve that chance. Lastly for every upset that happened today or will happen tomorrow you can find twice as many 30+ point blowouts that weren’t fun for either side and honestly weren’t safe in some instances.
A series of the worst, most ridiculous takes ever. How did YOU (Bruce Almighty) decide that 13, and EXACTLY 13, was the cutoff, below which that team "doesn't deserve that chance" to win their region-- what an absurd statement-- it's just a bunch of nonsense from someone who can't see past the end of his nose that EVERY OTHER Ohio HS sport allows EVERY TEAM into the playoffs-- and teams regularly surprise much higher seeds in those playoffs-- as has ALREADY Happened 16 times in this year's football tournament.

The absurd nonsense about "diminishing the value of regular season games" is another old favorite falsehood-- there is no evidence of that (certainly NOT the Edison win against Bellevue)-- and why does it ONLY do that for football-- no one says that about basketball, or baseball, or wrestling, or soccer, or ANY other sport.

Then there's the idiotic claim that mismatched teams somehow mean that players are more likely to get hurt-- WHY is that only true if that mismatch happens in the playoffs-- but it's FINE during the regular season to have the same mismatches? Did the mismatch in the Division I State Championship game last year (43-0 at half time) result in more injuries???-- NO, it did NOT.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
I can understand the argument for div1. Each region only has 17-18 teams and you end up which 10-0 or 9-1 playing a 1-9 or 0-10, not fun. However for lower divisions with 24-27 teams per region this increase in playoff spots allow for a tougher schedule against higher divisions more competitive teams. I think Alter was a good example of this. They scheduled Fairmont(d1), Hoban(d2), and Miamisburg(d1) along with a semi - tough league schedule. Ended the regular season at 5-5 and snuck in at the #15 seed. In their playoff game they upsetted the #2 Monroe who had a fairly easy schedule. If anything, this expansion will make for a much more entertaining regular season for all, as teams will begin to schedule harder competition more frequently.

That was the first consequence I posted about five weeks ago or however long it was when all these theads whining about the 16 first started. It was the first consequence of the increase in participants that jumped out at me, not "blow-outs."

All the teams will be able to schedule to their talent. There will of course still be a few that find themselves lower than 16 but for the most part, the Harbin cow has been bbq-ed, teams can schedule up.


Haven't seen yet where any poster has compared the seed upsets to anything like a pasteur tanking to see how many were actually upsets. That I would like to read if anyone has seen it.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
So the argument against more teams in the playoffs is that football coaches are such horrible people as to not be trusted with students bodies and lives?

I know that was in jest, but that seems to be the argument some really do make.

Which doesn't bode well for the future of the sport if the argument made to make it safer is to just play less of it and be leary of those making the decisions in the games.

I DID make it, not in jest and not for the blown up reason you or the others looing for something to shout about provided. I made it because of the reality, many of these coaches would never have been on the same field with teams as weakly skilled and with as low a participation numbers as they were about to meet. I made it based upon observation. I made it as a cautionary, not as an argument against 16.

As I mentioned in the post above, as far as the urban teams they are often in that division in name only, it doesn't reflect the reality of the student population. It doesn't reflect the reality of being in an environment in which many of the larger and more athletic kids are siphoned off to open enrollment or private schools. I'm short. I walke past our local team last year and there weren't but 5-10 kids taller than me, with cleats on. There are some heavy kids. And the depth isn't there. These kids are not as fit nor have the depth that even when the other team puts the reserves in, they are going against tired kids who have played a half against far more fit kids. Tires leads to injury.

It can be (generalizing) like putting a university club team against their varsity.

And yes, we do know there are "those" coaches and the teams they present. let's not pretend they don't exist. But my post was again, mostly cautionary for those that are NOT "those" coaches but had never coached against the low level of talent they were about to see. And yes those exist also.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
A series of the worst, most ridiculous takes ever. How did YOU (Bruce Almighty) decide that 13, and EXACTLY 13, was the cutoff, below which that team "doesn't deserve that chance" to win their region-- what an absurd statement-- it's just a bunch of nonsense from someone who can't see past the end of his nose that EVERY OTHER Ohio HS sport allows EVERY TEAM into the playoffs-- and teams regularly surprise much higher seeds in those playoffs-- as has ALREADY Happened 16 times in this year's football tournament.

snore

it's pizzed pants responses to a polite, reasoned post that is absurd. It doesn't matter if you agree or disagree. NLLBEST insulted no one and you respond like a little puke. What's up with that?
 
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James x2

Well-known member
D-III had 7 running clocks for all intents and purposes. Canfield had a 35-0 lead at half and was up 42-0 when they put all the reserves in early in the 3rd quarter, ND-CL 1st teamers finally scored twice with a couple minutes left in the 4th quarter on the deep reserves. Canfield could have easily won 70-0 if they wanted. And this probably happened in more games than just this one.
VASJ was leading 37-7 at halftime against Hawken. Wound up winning 44-21. Seems the JV. got a lot of experience in the 2nd half. This game could have been whatever they wanted it to be. This practice game helps the strong get stronger by giving the reserves invaluable playing time in playoff situations. For every game and every extra week this expanded playoff scenario brings , you have dominate teams giving reserves enough extra PT that will only pay dividends down the line.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
My point proven already this year.

Low seed with injuries in season come back and go far.
#14 seed Bellefountaine got their Uber talented player back and expect them to win 3-5 playoff games to prove they belong
 

BelowTheLine

Active member
The whole logic off 16v1 being unsafe comment is really off. What makes the post season more risky than the exact same regular season situation?

There is not a single PLAYER on a 16 scared of injury. Adults making up dumb things again.
I don't know if this is true. The kids on my local high school team (didn't make the playoffs) openly talked about their goal for the last few games was to just not get injured. They openly talked about it.
 
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