Hold Backs Getting out of Control...

Hot_Takes said:
They are all adults in college seems like a pretty level and moral platform to me. They have an eligibility cap that is clearly laid out which is very close to an age cap. However, the older you are coming out of high school or starting your college athletics the older you are when you finish.

I'm just pissy my property taxes have gone up 3 years in a row lol! That may be for another thread...on average it costs ~13,000 per year for public school kids to attend school. Private schools can get Ed Choice, while it may or may not be the full amount to cover tuition, it still comes from taxpayer money. I said before that I don't care what people choose to do, but to assume that it only affects the athlete and the family and the extra year isn't aiding in the likelihood for success is just silly.
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I understand your point. High school also has an eligibility cap (4 years).

Ben Provisor is the wrestler I was making reference to (he's very old, hopefully no one cares too much that I mention him by name). He's been on our Greco world team several times and just within the last year or two decided to start his college eligibility. Definitely a one-off case, but an interesting scenario to consider. Wrestling is probably one of the few sports where that may make sense since there is no mainstream "professional" league.

Right there with ya on taxes. Absolutely Ridiculous. I think it's the same all across the state. iPads for every kid in our district 🙄...but yes, likely for another thread.
 
Brakattack said:
Nobody asked you to be scared of them. Ask you dont bash 15 year olds for making a decision that can help them get a 250k scholarship. You do you, by the way you talk your kid shouldnt have an issue getting a big10 full ride. Some of us needed held back, just facts.
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Not bashing the act of holding back. I don’t care, let the grown ups wrestle, welcome the competition. I just don’t like the attempt to justify and normalize it, The idea that you are owed a spot on the podium as a freshmen, that you wouldn’t have got without being held back is extremely narcissistic. I also feel the gamesmanship and manipulation of the grade system, to one’s advantage, is not the spirit of high school sports, probably better suited for prep nationals where it’s a level playing field. But once again don’t blame someone for doing something within the rules, just not owning the reality of it.
 
GoGreen44 said:
Not bashing the act of holding back. I don’t care, let the grown ups wrestle, welcome the competition. I just don’t like the attempt to justify and normalize it, The idea that you are owed a spot on the podium as a freshmen, that you wouldn’t have got without being held back is extremely narcissistic. I also feel the gamesmanship and manipulation of the grade system, to one’s advantage, is not the spirit of high school sports, probably better suited for prep nationals where it’s a level playing field. But once again don’t blame someone for doing something within the rules, just not owning the reality of it.
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I tell all my guys to get held back, an extra year of training gives them a much better shot at that 250k scholarship I mentioned earlier. We arent all as good as your kid bro. Its a normal part of our sport, like somebody said earlier. Just like cutting weight, just like transferring schools. Acting as if eds in d1 isn’t basically a prep school??? We are trying to even the playing field, getting held back is a good start!
 
This thread every year. Personally I feel bad for the kids that get held back. Parents might say it is a maturity thing, grades thing, etc. However I feel like in the vast majority of the cases it is mommy and daddy trying to get an edge because little jimmy struggles more than they want in their grade athletically. Not always the case, but when we are talking about athletes being held back it is typically the deciding factor if we are being truly honest. Simply my opinion on what I have seen over the past 20+ years coaching in football and wrestling. However the bigger point that a few have alluded to is who the hell am I or anyone else to tell or judge another parent for THEIR choice with THEIR child. My kid was a middle of the group and a late bloomer. Had a well respected club/HS coach tell me I should hold them back for wrestling. I simply laughed. Oldest wrestled in 10 weight classes in HS, youngest while not wrestling in ten weights came into HS a pudgy little nugget that competed in 6 weight classes which illustrates my point. Yes we took some beatings, but both won over 100 matches, both were state placers. It all works out. I was more concerned with what kind of men they grew up to be(still am to be honest LOL). More over I was not concerned with what other kids were doing or their parents and frankly people on this board shouldn't either.

On a side note I joke with both of my boys that I should have held them back and both just roll their eyes. They get it and it lets me know that I at least did one thing right.
 
Brakattack said:
I tell all my guys to get held back, an extra year of training gives them a much better shot at that 250k scholarship I mentioned earlier. We arent all as good as your kid bro. Its a normal part of our sport, like somebody said earlier. Just like cutting weight, just like transferring schools. Acting as if eds in d1 isn’t basically a prep school??? We are trying to even the playing field, getting held back is a good start!
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Not just a normal part of our sport it's a normal part in many sports Football, Baseball, Basketball how many basketball players reclassify to an later year. These people are acting like holdbacks just started in wrestling.
 
GoGreen44 said:
Sorry, but no Holding back is not akin to cutting weight or club wrestling. Those things take sacrifice and dedication. Holding back does not. Once again, deciding to hold back is just taking advantage of the situation, and not having the confidence to wrestle your designed age groups. Your family is not more dedicated, quit trying to glamorize it, Just trying to take an easier road to whatever your goal is, through a loop hole. There are all kinds of things that are legal, that people don’t do out of integrity. If you get rich showing your B hole on onlyfans, that’s not the same as building a vital business that is profitable.
And that’s fine, No grudge, don’t care, but please don’t try and act like it’s a dedication thing, those of us who are not willing to sacrifice our dignity are not less dedicated, you didn’t work harder. I simply looked at the idea, and didn’t want to tell my kid he couldn’t compete against older bigger kids… Holding back is not a sacrifice it’s a crutch be real.
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Buckeye454 said:
Yes, most athletes repeating a grade do regress from inactivity during their extra year. I bet that's why so many are against the concept. Great point.
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I would agree that just simply taking a year off of school in and of itself does nothing to help a student athlete, but the sacrifice and dedication piece comes in how that extra year is spent. I suspect that most kids that go that route spend a significant time training, lifting, and competing as well as getting ahead (or up to grade) academically. Again, back to 2020 remote- my kids got through their academic work in 3 hours or less every day which frees up more time to train. I get that not every family is in a position or situation to pull it off in a way that benefits the student athlete - nor does every student athlete need an extra year, but you can't argue that it hasn't been successful for many kids.
 
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The college "grey shirt" or gap year is most commonly used now to establish in-state tuition or wait for scholarship money to open up from seniors. Kids go into a club room and get the same work the college guys are getting in their club season. Some times it is for evaluation purposes rather than walk-on, go to the club and see if you can actually help us before we commit money to you. Rarely is a kid grey shirting for development now. If you are a high level HS kid, you are in the room competing or redshirting and getting open tournaments. There is the rare kid who is really good, but walking around at 120lbs and needs to gain weight, so they grey shirt to hopefully lift and grow.
 
My
CoachHoversten said:
I have a son who will turn 5 in March, I can’t even fathom deciding right now at his age that he needs to hold back so maybe someday he’ll have an advantage in sports. If someone is held back in K or 1st grade, it’s highly pretentious to assume it was for wrestling, especially if you do not know them or their background.

My son was born in the “sweet spot”, he’ll be 5 and 1/2 when he starts K; anyone born in Aug/Sept does not have that luxury. Parents must decide if their child will always be the youngest in their grade or oldest; can’t begrudge a parent for deciding their kid start at just 6 rather than just turned 5. 6 months is nothing to adults but is a significant time period in toddlers. I started college at 17, turned 18 a month into my freshman year, didn’t bother me but that may not be what’s best for everyone.

If people are held back in MS for non academic reasons (not recommended by school), then my personal opinion is that’s sad, but it’s not my decision to blast on the internet. At that age, friends and social life is an important part of their lives and holding them back to be in class with new kids while their peers and friends move on simply for athletic benefit is not my cup of tea , but if it’s within the rules and the family decides, not much anyone can do, so why be bent out of shape about it?

And while this might be a stretch and only applicable to a small percentage; maybe athletic scholarships are their kids only chance at college? Maybe they are a B/C student who does good but not great and won’t get any academic scholarships; and maybe college isn’t affordable to the family. If a kid has a legit shot talent wise but puberty hasn’t started as early as others, it may help their chances . Again; it’s legal and not your decision what they do; so 🤷

it’s fine to say “I wouldn’t do it”, I know I wouldn’t, but my circumstances are different than yours might be.
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I agree with you on that. My son was born July 6. We are not sure yet when we want to start him for K. He is 4 now. It would either Start him at 5 and he will be one of the youngest kids in his grade or start him at 6 and he will be one of the oldest. We are deciding it on if he is mentally and emotionally ready for it, not thinking about athletic advantages from it.
 
buno67 said:
My

I agree with you on that. My son was born July 6. We are not sure yet when we want to start him for K. He is 4 now. It would either Start him at 5 and he will be one of the youngest kids in his grade or start him at 6 and he will be one of the oldest. We are deciding it on if he is mentally and emotionally ready for it, not thinking about athletic advantages from it.
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I would wait it's easier to make the decision for him to graduate on time then he not be ready for high school
 
buno67 said:
My

I agree with you on that. My son was born July 6. We are not sure yet when we want to start him for K. He is 4 now. It would either Start him at 5 and he will be one of the youngest kids in his grade or start him at 6 and he will be one of the oldest. We are deciding it on if he is mentally and emotionally ready for it, not thinking about athletic advantages from it.
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I have yet to meet a parent who held their kid back and told me they regretted it. There are multiple people who I have a tremendous amount of respect for that held their kids back or started them late. I'd recommend waiting a year to start your kid if it'd feasible.

I really considered holding my oldest son back. He has a Sept birthday and was 14 for his entire freshman year. He's not a superstar and holding him back wouldn't have changed that. He's a great student and as an educator myself one of the main reasons we chose to send him to high school when we did was it was very important we didn't send the message that wrestling was more important than school.

What I'd tell anyone in this thread... is control what you can control and don't waste time and energy on stuff you can't.
 
BigH said:
I would wait it's easier to make the decision for him to graduate on time then he not be ready for high school
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We totally are but it was an issue we ran into when we had to first think about it. Our answers were it be easier for him to be prepared for school but never once thought about a potential high school athletic career lol
 
buno67 said:
Now I would be curious of who is the youngest state champ at their respected weight classes
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I find that interesting

1. Who is the youngest freshman state champ? - 14 something?
2. Oldest freshman state champ - 16? something?

1. Who is the youngest senior state champ? - 17 something?
2. Oldest senior state champ? - 20?

Names might be interesting
 
MitSulHer said:
I find that interesting

1. Who is the youngest freshman state champ? - 14 something?
2. Oldest freshman state champ - 16? something?

1. Who is the youngest senior state champ? - 17 something?
2. Oldest senior state champ? - 20?

Names might be interesting
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What does any of this really prove? I get it and don't agree with a 20 year old state champ....BUT Not everyone matures at the same time, do we include which freshman or any state champs that had facial , chest hair ? Do we applaud someone as the youngest because he's a month younger than 14 other state champs ? 2 weeks? Does that really make a difference? 3 days older? Personally facial hair tells more than age in terms of physical maturity and testosterone.
 
MitSulHer said:
I find that interesting

1. Who is the youngest freshman state champ? - 14 something?
2. Oldest freshman state champ - 16? something?

1. Who is the youngest senior state champ? - 17 something?
2. Oldest senior state champ? - 20?

Names might be interesting
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Weights as well
 
I'm just going to assume at least 30% of this thread is about Bo so I'll skip reading. He won a cadet gold medal (which included the entire world and is done by age group), and then won the two toughest folk HS tournaments in the country at the regular age of a junior in HS. Who tf cares if he's a soph or a junior, he wasn't even allowed to wrestle in PIAA's last year so he's got 4 shots at a state title like anybody else. Yes he would lose to a prime Cael Sanderson, Jordan Burroughs, Kyle Dake, etc. too before we start seeing those dumb arguments. So would a lot of great wrestlers.
 
Buckeye1st said:
I know this is a dead horse topic, but at which point are we going to move to all age group wrestling?

I get so sick of hearing about "sophomore Bo Bassett". He is an incredible wrestler but let's go ahead an be honest about his age. He is an old junior, let alone a sophomore in high school. All credit to the Marcus Blazes of the world who are actually dominating in their correct grade.

At some point we have to be realistic about this sanctioned cheating so that kids can dominate as 7/8/9 graders and their dads can post on facebook "we wrestled great this weekend.
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Buckeye1st said:
I know this is a dead horse topic, but at which point are we going to move to all age group wrestling?

I get so sick of hearing about "sophomore Bo Bassett". He is an incredible wrestler but let's go ahead an be honest about his age. He is an old junior, let alone a sophomore in high school. All credit to the Marcus Blazes of the world who are actually dominating in their correct grade.

At some point we have to be realistic about this sanctioned cheating so that kids can dominate as 7/8/9 graders and their dads can post on facebook "we wrestled great this weekend."
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I should start a thread titled: Parents complaining about holdouts is getting out of control!

In high school, the age range for varsity is 14-19. Your REAL argument seems to be that 19 year olds shouldn’t be allowed to wrestle in HS, am I right? So until Bassett and all the other hold-backs turn 19, you have ZERO argument. In other words, for 3 years your kid has no excuse to lose to him. None. If Bassett didn’t get held back, it just means he would have beat your child one year earlier. As a parent, you should be trying your hardest to avoid making fake excuses for your kid. It sets them up psychologically for failure. Do better. Your kid deserves it.
 
GrizzlyDad said:
I guess if u look at gymnastics I see 12 year olds beating 19 yr olds all the time, and it’s a physical sport 🤷🏼
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Buckeye454 said:
Anybody that has an issue with "hold backs" in high school have an issue with red shirts in college?

I feel like generally, there's more hate toward college coaches that put a kid out "before he's ready".

Interesting discrepancy with the same issue/reasoning for both scenarios...
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Well at 14 MOST boys are no where near as strong and developed as 18 and 19 year olds. It has a lot to do with puberty and testosterone and less to do with chronological age. The playing field evens out as they become upper classmen and in college. There are always exceptions to the rule.
 
Brakattack said:
Nobody asked you to be scared of them. Ask you dont bash 15 year olds for making a decision that can help them get a 250k scholarship. You do you, by the way you talk your kid shouldnt have an issue getting a big10 full ride. Some of us needed held back, just facts.
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Not many kids get a 250k scholarship? 3% of HS wrestlers wrestle in college.
 
BigH said:
Not just a normal part of our sport it's a normal part in many sports Football, Baseball, Basketball how many basketball players reclassify to a later year. These people are acting like holdbacks just started in wrestling.
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This definitely happens in many sports, and age/physical maturity/years of training all play a role in how competitive an athlete is. I’ve always felt listing grade and age would help serve to understand how competitive one is against one’s peers and an athlete’s ceiling (eg ~20 yr old HS grad may have less upside at the next level than say a 17-yr old HS grad with similar success level in HS)
 
I am all for waiting as long as possible to eligible when a senior in hs. Several reasons: 1. I have observed it helps the student in school as they are more maturity in earlier grades and develop with less issues. 2. It can help in athletics in high school which can help with understanding that better preparation leads to more success, not just in sports. That was important to what professional success I have had in my life. 3. The more mature a kid is in high school can help with needed social skills being developed before graduation which also can prepare for more success in post school life. 4. The longer in school, the less time working as a adult. The later one can graduate from college or other training, the closer to retirement. I say that now at my mid 60s age.
 
Crimsonblooded said:
Kinda got tired of reading this debate so I skipped most of it. That being said could someone let me know if this did get resolved or if this will be debated on yappi again?
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As a veteran Yapper (Yappian?), you must understand that one cannot just audit the thread and then try and get the final word. Go back to the beginning and read all of the posts. Only when you have wasted as much of your time as the rest of us can you put in your 2 cents. Good day.
 
Skimmed and saw people mentioning Grey Burnett...he was nowhere close to 106 at the age of an average freshman. Would have been giving up 10+ pounds easily. Most hold backs are very good and have a good reason behind it. They aren't doing it to physically manhandle jr. high kids at least the ones I've seen mentioned.
 
The Edge said:
As a veteran Yapper (Yappian?), you must understand that one cannot just audit the thread and then try and get the final word. Go back to the beginning and read all of the posts. Only when you have wasted as much of your time as the rest of us can you put in your 2 cents. Good day.
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Oh I’m not giving two cents, just trying to find the conclusion. But since you brought my two cents up here it is. What ever is legal by the governing body is the rule. You may not think it’s ethical but that doesn’t matter. Maybe write the ohsaa or form a parental lobby group but it’s legal. Muslims don’t eat pork but I do because it’s legal in this country. Everybody has good valid points as does eating and not eating pork. I think we heard everything on this topic. But I guess this is the place for it just let me know when it is resolved and I will abide by the rule.
Yours Truly,
Yappi Novice
 
holdbacks don't go undefeated. has anyone ever heard a peep from someone who beat a holdback or is it just the losers?
 
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