Empty Lanes at Regional and State

[EuclidandViren]

One of my pet peeves in the championship portion of the season is open lanes.

An athlete will qualify in the 100 and 200 and then only run the 100. An athlete will qualify in the 1600 and 3200 and then drop one at the regional or state meets.
Teams will drop individual races for a relay.

I don't ever blame the athlete or coach for making this decision. The athlete earned that position. I have always thought there should be a process that a team can declare 24 hours before the events. The first alternate could run and help fill the lanes.

On the positive side, filling the lanes would create more revenue for the state.

 

[Runningfast]

I love it. There would be some logistical considerations, but I think it would be awesome to offer other kids a chance.

Does wrestling do something along these lines? I believe I've heard kids at our school celebrated as qualifying as alternates to the state meet. Would their system be a good model to mimic?

 

[Altor]

Does wrestling do something along these lines? I believe I've heard kids at our school celebrated as qualifying as alternates to the state meet. Would their system be a good model to mimic?

Wrestling does it, in part, because it is wholly unfair to the other 14 wrestlers in the bracket if somebody gets a walkover because of a withdrawal before the competition starts.

That is not true in track and field. Everybody still has to exert some effort in order to advance.

 

[Runningfast]

Ahh, that makes sense.

How do they work the logistics of the alternates? Is there a declaration cutoff? Do the alternates travel to state on the off chance they compete? How could that look for Track?

 

[CedarBuck92]

Ahh, that makes sense.

How do they work the logistics of the alternates? Is there a declaration cutoff? Do the alternates travel to state on the off chance they compete? How could that look for Track?

Alternates must travel to state on their own, if they wrestle they obviously get in free, otherwise they are a paying spectator. Wrestlers can withdraw up until the moment they wrestle their first match.

In track, I would say you probably want some kind of drop deadline. After that the only drops would be for injuries during the meet.

 

[psycho_dad]

It is a team sport. The objective is to score as many points as you can as a team. It is part of the strategy to qualify and then pick and choose how you negotiate the finals to maximize your scoring. You have already eliminated others in an event and to let someone back in is absurd. They had their chance at the District and the Regional. There are already 2 at large spots per event at the state meet. Going into the District meet, we have the top (4) 800m runners and 6 of the top 7. Only two get to start. We have 5 of the top (7) 3200m runners. We have to choose 2. We, and many other teams, are eliminating state qualifiers before day one of the District. Worry about those kids before you worry about someone that actually had their chance. Sometimes you make decisions on the fly and some 24 hour declaration does not work for that. Stop treating a team sport as if it is not. The process works just fine and the kids that deserve to run get to run. Except for the ones that are not top 2 on their team.

 

[yj_runfan]

Alternates must travel to state on their own, if they wrestle they obviously get in free, otherwise they are a paying spectator. Wrestlers can withdraw up until the moment they wrestle their first match.

In track, I would say you probably want some kind of drop deadline. After that the only drops would be for injuries during the meet.

How do you prevent someone from dropping an event? What would be the penalty? What stops them from stepping to the start line then stepping off after the gun? Doesn’t seem feasible.

 

[EuclidandViren]

By the way, this was in effect in the late 1970's and early 1980's.

 

[CedarBuck92]

How do you prevent someone from dropping an event? What would be the penalty? What stops them from stepping to the start line then stepping off after the gun? Doesn’t seem feasible.

I'm not in favor of any penalty. I was just trying to answer the question of how you could make sure you have lanes filled.

 

[TCSoup]

Wrestling does it, in part, because it is wholly unfair to the other 14 wrestlers in the bracket if somebody gets a walkover because of a withdrawal before the competition starts.

That is not true in track and field. Everybody still has to exert some effort in order to advance.

16 Wrestlers but your point is valid

 

[Altor]

16 Wrestlers but your point is valid

16 wrestlers minus 1 who withdrew minus 1 who was his 1st round opponent. Makes it unfair to 14 other wrestlers.

 

[CC Track Fan]

How do you prevent someone from dropping an event? What would be the penalty? What stops them from stepping to the start line then stepping off after the gun? Doesn’t seem feasible.

The D3 All-Ohio meet take top 32 entered times in each event and coaches get a day to scratch kids and that opens a spot for the next kid on the list. If a person doesn't compete or complete an event they are disqualified from the rest of the meet.

Not saying HS should be done that way just explaining how it does/can work if did go that route.

 

[CedarBuck92]

The D3 All-Ohio meet take top 32 entered times in each event and coaches get a day to scratch kids and that opens a spot for the next kid on the list. If a person doesn't compete or complete an event they are disqualified from the rest of the meet.

Not saying HS should be done that way just explaining how it does/can work if did go that route.

How do you handle a kid who legitimately planned to compete but was injured in another event?

 

[Altor]

How do you handle a kid who legitimately planned to compete but was injured in another event?

The NCAA has an "honest effort" rule, which is what the All-Ohio meet is invoking. If you declare/enter in an event and then don't make an honest performance, you are done for the rest of the meet. If you are injured and don't compete in the 100 hurdles, you are immediately scratched from the 400 hurdles, even though you might have recovered in the time in between. The rule is designed specifically for meets like the All-Ohio or the National Championships to keep people from the gamesmanship of entering an event and then dropping it, thus keeping somebody else from running.

I once heard of a woman at the Indoor National Championships who was leading for 23 laps of the 5K. She got passed on the 24th lap and stepped off the track. The story I heard was that she was a bit of a poor loser and if she wasn't going to be on the top of the podium she didn't want to be on it at all. Anyways, the referee invoked the honest effort rule and she was not allowed to compete on the team's DMR the next day. When I heard the story, I was amazed because I never would have even thought of that rule in that situation. But, it was likely the correct ruling.

 

[mathking]

I think it would be a bad idea to try to do this for HS. I have pulled kids from an event at the state meet because someone else got injured and we needed them to run a relay. I have also had a kid at the state meet have to pull out of their second sprint because of a rolled ankle be well enough to throw the shot put and run on a relay the next day. But also, conditions can change. What if a kid is entered in 1600, 800 and 4x400 and it turns out to be a scorching hot day and the coach doesn't want to jeopardize a place in the 4x400 by having the kid run three races?

 

[yj_runfan]

We have had this discussion before. The answer that stuck in my mind was “the kid won that spot in competition. It’s his to do with as he sees fit. No one was unfairly denied a spot they had a chance to win”

 

[WrestlingGuy285]

I love it. There would be some logistical considerations, but I think it would be awesome to offer other kids a chance.

Does wrestling do something along these lines? I believe I've heard kids at our school celebrated as qualifying as alternates to the state meet. Would their system be a good model to mimic?

Wrestling has the top 4 wrestlers from each district meet (there's 4 per division) qualify for the state tournament. The 5th place wrestler at the district tournament is the State Alternate. If there is an injury, someone doesn't make weight, or doesn't pass skin check then the Alternate from that district gets in to the state bracket and takes the spot on the bracket of the wrestler who had to default out. It would be a hard system to model as there's not a way to really disqualify a track athlete prior to the meet starting. I think the 24 hours to enter an athlete makes sense, but then how do you enforce that the runner has to run both the 1600 and 3200 after being entered in? Does the state want 30 other athletes showing up to regionals and state for a slim chance to get into the race if a kid decides they don't want to participate in an event?

 

[Newton's Third]

Just one opinion of course, but I think trying to fill these spots is a potential negative for the sport. As others have said, there are a variety of reasons kids/coaches drop spots that they have earned.

Setting a timeline a day or more prior to the meet is especially bad in my eyes. I liken it somewhat to what I blame on Timing Companies, entries have to be confirmed ahead of time. I had multiple instances of a kid getting sick/injured at the district meet and going to the clerk to sub while the meet was in action. This is no longer possible. Because it is a headache for the timing company? A basketball team does not have to designate who will play in the 4th quarter prior to the start of the game. Taking away options for coaches and athletes who earned their spot is not a positive because someone likes to see all lanes full.

 

[Altor]

I had multiple instances of a kid getting sick/injured at the district meet and going to the clerk to sub while the meet was in action. This is no longer possible.

https://ohsaaweb.blob.core.windows.net/files/Sports/Track-Field/TFTournamentRegulations.pdf

near the bottom of Page 1

In regard to the above regulation, substitutions may be permitted only in the event that a competitor becomes injured or ill during the contest. For example, a competitor is injured during the running of the high hurdles and cannot compete in a later event (e.g., 300 I.H). In this case, the coach should be permitted to substitute. Substitutions will not be accepted beyond the district level for individual events.

 

[Newton's Third]

https://ohsaaweb.blob.core.windows.net/files/Sports/Track-Field/TFTournamentRegulations.pdf

near the bottom of Page 1

Thank you Altor. This must have been implemented in the few years since I've been retired. It pleases me that someone saw that it is important to put athletes and teams ahead of administration. Again, thank you for the correction.

 

[Altor]

That's been my understanding of the regulation since at least they started using Baumspage for entries, possibly before that.

It also used to say essesntially that the athlete that was substituted for is ineligible for the remainder of the district meet. Note that this only applied to athletes who were substituted for (not just scratched) after the noon scratch deadline. I don't see that clause there now.

 

[psycho_dad]

That's been my understanding of the regulation since at least they started using Baumspage for entries, possibly before that.

It also used to say essesntially that the athlete that was substituted for is ineligible for the remainder of the district meet. Note that this only applied to athletes who were substituted for (not just scratched) after the noon scratch deadline. I don't see that clause there now.

Here is the problem, and we run into it every year at the District. They do not follow OHSAA protocol. We showed up at the District last night and 30 minutes before the first jumper in the LJ, we are told the LJ will be open pit. 25+ kids. Only 8 of which could properly warm up since all the other kids were not expecting to jump for an hour. One of the worst LJ competitions I've ever seen. Can't tell you how many kids did not get on the board. Warming up for running events was not according to the published guidelines. Absolutely no hurdle drills or hurdlers allowed over a hurdle until the gun goes off for the race. No one allowed on the backstretch to warm up. Published guidelines not followed.

"3. All athletes in running events will check in with the clerks in the athlete reporting area by the start of the 100m. The exception will be the athletes competing in the 200m and 300H. The athletes in the 200m will check in with the clerks at the start of the 200m. The athletes in the 300H will check in with the clerks at the start of the 300H, near the pole vault pit. " Kids were yelled at to go check in at the normal bullpen, only to be told to go back and face the person that Yelled at them in the first place for doing exactly what was published! I'm also sick of the officials YELLING at the kids. That's from the start. Not last resort, but Yell yell yell. Our District meet is the worst run meet we go to all year. Crappy dual meets are better. The stress is unreal. As a coach, you cannot make too big a stink because you just put a bullseye on your kids back.

I've had to use alternates in relays because they would not allow our kids to check in after 3rd call! Does not matter that they were not allowed to check out of an event until 3rd call, and could not be checked in by a coach or teammate. This year I had to get with meet management and go to the bullpen and make sure kids were allowed to check in. It went much better, but it started off rough the first event. They are assigned a heat and a lane. You cannot substitute after 12:00. They don't need to be there first call. Especially if in other events. I'm glad they allow the 8 kids on relay cards, because I end up using almost all of them because of meet management.

 

[Newton's Third]

That's been my understanding of the regulation since at least they started using Baumspage for entries, possibly before that.

It also used to say essesntially that the athlete that was substituted for is ineligible for the remainder of the district meet. Note that this only applied to athletes who were substituted for (not just scratched) after the noon scratch deadline. I don't see that clause there now.

I spent time in Eastern Ohio as a head coach, but my last 4-5 years as an assistant. Somewhere around 2012-2014 the head coach accidentally entered the wrong name in an event on Baumspage. We were DIII that year. When we showed up for district we saw the heats and realized the error. We went to the clerk who sent us to the timer. We were told that the proper boy could not compete since all entries were final as of the previous night. The timer said that he could not be burdened with changes on meet day. Hence, we substituted a 4:54 boy for a 4:28 senior who did not get to compete and likely would have made it to the state meet. I assumed that things have not changed, but am glad that they have. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[psycho_dad]

I spent time in Eastern Ohio as a head coach, but my last 4-5 years as an assistant. Somewhere around 2012-2014 the head coach accidentally entered the wrong name in an event on Baumspage. We were DIII that year. When we showed up for district we saw the heats and realized the error. We went to the clerk who sent us to the timer. We were told that the proper boy could not compete since all entries were final as of the previous night. The timer said that he could not be burdened with changes on meet day. Hence, we substituted a 4:54 boy for a 4:28 senior who did not get to compete and likely would have made it to the state meet. I assumed that things have not changed, but am glad that they have. Thanks for the clarification.

Here is another problem that they have encountered with milesplit entries. It can glitch and not download everyone on your roster. If they are not on the downloaded roster, you are screwed. What I have done is make sure that if I have even a slim chance of using someone, I put them in one of the relays as an alternate to assure that they are in the database. Then you can change it. The first year with milesplit entries was rough, so I don't quite trust it yet.

 

[bgtri11]

Here is the problem, and we run into it every year at the District. They do not follow OHSAA protocol. We showed up at the District last night and 30 minutes before the first jumper in the LJ, we are told the LJ will be open pit. 25+ kids. Only 8 of which could properly warm up since all the other kids were not expecting to jump for an hour. One of the worst LJ competitions I've ever seen. Can't tell you how many kids did not get on the board. Warming up for running events was not according to the published guidelines. Absolutely no hurdle drills or hurdlers allowed over a hurdle until the gun goes off for the race. No one allowed on the backstretch to warm up. Published guidelines not followed.

"3. All athletes in running events will check in with the clerks in the athlete reporting area by the start of the 100m. The exception will be the athletes competing in the 200m and 300H. The athletes in the 200m will check in with the clerks at the start of the 200m. The athletes in the 300H will check in with the clerks at the start of the 300H, near the pole vault pit. " Kids were yelled at to go check in at the normal bullpen, only to be told to go back and face the person that Yelled at them in the first place for doing exactly what was published! I'm also sick of the officials YELLING at the kids. That's from the start. Not last resort, but Yell yell yell. Our District meet is the worst run meet we go to all year. Crappy dual meets are better. The stress is unreal. As a coach, you cannot make too big a stink because you just put a bullseye on your kids back.

I've had to use alternates in relays because they would not allow our kids to check in after 3rd call! Does not matter that they were not allowed to check out of an event until 3rd call, and could not be checked in by a coach or teammate. This year I had to get with meet management and go to the bullpen and make sure kids were allowed to check in. It went much better, but it started off rough the first event. They are assigned a heat and a lane. You cannot substitute after 12:00. They don't need to be there first call. Especially if in other events. I'm glad they allow the 8 kids on relay cards, because I end up using almost all of them because of meet management.

I'm sorry to hear all of that. That's pretty terrible they used an open pit for LJ at the District Meet. It should be run in flights as it would be at the Regional and State, and gives all the athletes a chance to warm up properly, along with not having to wait around longer to jump which happens often with an open pit. We have been fortunate that our District meets (previously at Graham and this year at Piqua) have been pretty well run and athlete/coach friendly, and the majority of officials have been great.

 

[Finishtiming]

Just one opinion of course, but I think trying to fill these spots is a potential negative for the sport. As others have said, there are a variety of reasons kids/coaches drop spots that they have earned.

Setting a timeline a day or more prior to the meet is especially bad in my eyes. I liken it somewhat to what I blame on Timing Companies, entries have to be confirmed ahead of time. I had multiple instances of a kid getting sick/injured at the district meet and going to the clerk to sub while the meet was in action. This is no longer possible. Because it is a headache for the timing company? A basketball team does not have to designate who will play in the 4th quarter prior to the start of the game. Taking away options for coaches and athletes who earned their spot is not a positive because someone likes to see all lanes full.

Don't blame a timing company. Not a timing company rule it is an ohsaa rule. I have no problem making changes at meets we do it all the time but we are not allowed at district level. This was a rule set in place by the district board or ohsaa but it is a rule they make us follow.

 

[Finishtiming]

Here is another problem that they have encountered with milesplit entries. It can glitch and not download everyone on your roster. If they are not on the downloaded roster, you are screwed. What I have done is make sure that if I have even a slim chance of using someone, I put them in one of the relays as an alternate to assure that they are in the database. Then you can change it. The first year with milesplit entries was rough, so I don't quite trust it yet.

Not a glitch but the person that downloads does not use the correct download file. There is a file for entries and then there is a file for entries and full roster downloads. I have only had 2 coaches this year tell me the kid was on their roster when I said they were not and we logged in to see that he had not entered them yet but thought they had done as they just came off injury. I have seen coaches add a kid to the roster also and forget to specify outdoor track and it will not download them also.

 

[Newton's Third]

Don't blame a timing company. Not a timing company rule it is an ohsaa rule. I have no problem making changes at meets we do it all the time but we are not allowed at district level. This was a rule set in place by the district board or ohsaa but it is a rule they make us follow.

At that time it was NOT a district or OHSAA rule, but they gave the timing company (Not Finishtiming) authority to set those deadlines. I called someone at the district level at that moment because I felt an athlete that I represented was being given a raw deal for his coaches error. I was told this was a timing company decision. His wording was as I said earlier, "I do not want to be burdened with a bunch of changes while the meet is going on." Remember, this was approximately 10 years ago.. I am not meaning hash out outdated gripes. I was just letting Altor know why I was misinformed about the current rules.

I am pleased to hear that you do common sense things like changes that helps kids and teams, as long as they are within the rules.

 

[Altor]

Not a glitch but the person that downloads does not use the correct download file. There is a file for entries and then there is a file for entries and full roster downloads. I have only had 2 coaches this year tell me the kid was on their roster when I said they were not and we logged in to see that he had not entered them yet but thought they had done as they just came off injury. I have seen coaches add a kid to the roster also and forget to specify outdoor track and it will not download them also.

I had one coach try to sub a kid in who was not on the roster I downloaded back in early April. I told her to double check the roster on Milesplit because it would be a problem in May. She went back and verified that the athlete was on the roster. We sent an email to support at Milesplit who confirmed that they used the same download file I did (meet entries + full roster) and the athlete was not in the file. I never heard back whether they fixed it or not, but it was definitely a Milesplit error at the time.

 

[psycho_dad]

Update on the District meet management. They did a much better job on finals day. Corrected the error and flighted the girls LJ. Much smoother. Relaxed the bullpen situation and even seemed to relax the yelling at the kids. Not 100% perfect, but much better and there seemed to be an effort made to listen to the concerns and make some changes. Even allowed hurdlers to warm up. Admitted to not reading the OHSAA guidelines and just went off the info left to them from the previous meet manager. It was 5 years of chaos, but there was an effort made to make it better. As much as you can ask.

I had one coach try to sub a kid in who was not on the roster I downloaded back in early April. I told her to double check the roster on Milesplit because it would be a problem in May. She went back and verified that the athlete was on the roster. We sent an email to support at Milesplit who confirmed that they used the same download file I did (meet entries + full roster) and the athlete was not in the file. I never heard back whether they fixed it or not, but it was definitely a Milesplit error at the time.

We had 2 of our own kids not download for our own meet. Would not have even known, but after all was seeded, we filled empty lanes and spots in flights of field events with our kids. They are on our roster and downloaded for the other two meets we held. One at the start of the season and one the day after the meet they did not download for.