competitive balance

D4fan

Well-known member
Agreed there would have to some fine tuning…maybe a D3 Taft should have been playing in the 2nd tourney(D2) and a 11-13 team D2 team goes down a level.

I think the smaller school good teams would love to take on some of the big boys and all the tournaments become much more competitive.
I talk to several head coaches in a regular basis. I have yet to ever hear a coach say they wished they could move up and face tougher competition in the tournament. I have heard several bemoaning a step up.

That does not mean they are not happy facing one or two big boy teams in the regular season and give their kids a chance to see how D1 or D2 basketball is played.

The way to build a program is to become elite at the level you are playing. No one is going to get excited about potentially getting to a sectional title game when they have potential to get to regionals in their actual designated level of competition. The D4 winner this year thought the two previous years they could win state, they are 1-2 at accomplishing it.

I think for those casually following a team that is just crushing the competition like Marion Local has done in football, it's easy to speak for them and say they should play up to see just how good they really are? The fact of the matter though, is they are a very small rural school with almost no transfers and those kids have every right to exploit the competition with their considerable talent for that size of school.

College is very different, as successful coaches often want to try their recuiting hand at a larger program in a more exclusive conference or division. If a high school coach wants to elevate competition level they can always go find another job rather than taking a group of kids and tinkering with their lives when those KIDS MOST ALWAYS ARE AT THE SCHOOL THEY PLAY FOR BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS LIVE IN THE DISTRICT. That is entirely different than kids recruited to a team by a coach be it high school or college.
 

Curious One

Active member
Let's look at it from the other side. Play devil's advocate for the moment. Why wouldn't OHSAA want to consider SOS or Harbin-type calculations? One thought is that it could really diminish the overall talent level of the teams in lower divisions. Yes, a successful Richmond Heights team would be moved up from D4. But wouldn't any smaller school that went 20-0, as well? I'm thinking OHSAA may not want to use a metric that would place all the really good teams in D1; the rest of the good teams in D2; the so-so teams in D3 and the struggling teams in D4. Though this certainly would make for more competitive games throughout the tournament, I can see why OHSAA would be hesitant. Part of the issue on this thread is that people tend to want to come up with rules that will effect the other team, but not apply to their team. To me, in any endeavor, it's almost never fair when you write rules for the worst case scenario. So, since any suggested change comes with a different set of inequities, it seems like OHSAA is content to stand still and rely on enrollment weighted by CB; which, if nothing else, is about as neutral a metric that you can come up with. It's not perfect, but they seem willing to live by the old adage: "The devil you know beats the devil you don't".
How about some sort of Harbin times enrollment formula to keep things a little more dependent on enrollment? Do you think a talented player would want to go to a team with a bad schedule?
 

IVCguy

Well-known member
But, because a kid transfers to a different school doesn't mean he was recruited.
The sanctions are severe for recruiting. I suppose if coaches are doing it, they would use runners/go betweens that have no official connection to the program.

But I have to believe the vast majority, almost all, coaches are honest at the HS level. I have been told that all kinds of conversations preclude a transfer, but if it comes to a coach, directly or indirectly, they will say something like: "I cannot talk about that. The parents need to talk to the principal. Once a kid is enrolled in the school, then I can talk to them about basketball." FWIW
 
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HomeRun10

Active member
So something as unimportant as basketball should lock a family into where they live? Why stop with basketball - we should ask a governing body for permission to do everything in our lives, where we live, where we work, who we marry - because they surely know what is best for us.

Without knowing the full details I think that kid got screwed.
It is called education based athletics. If you are transferring to a school for athletics, then you should be punished. If it is academics then you have an argument. Do you think these kids that transferred to Richmond Heights did it for academics? What is the point in the athletic transfer for these kids to Richmond Heights? I get the Harris kid is going to WVU, but you think he wouldn't have got an offer being at Glenoak? Where is the next best college one of their kids is going to? Wooster? there is no NBA future for these kids, so academics should be behind the transfer choice, not athletics.
 

green_genes

Well-known member
Michigan state tournament took place over the weekend.

Division 1 Champion: Warren DeLaSalle over Grand Blanc. DLS is an all-boys school that pulls from all of metro Detroit. Grand Blanc was the defending state champion and a suburb of Flint who draws players from out of that talent-rich city and lost their best player before the season started when he transferred to Chicago Thornton to play for his AAU Coach.

Division 2 Champion: Williamston over Grand Rapids Catholic Central. GRCC was the defending state champion in basketball and a two-time defending state champion in football who draws talent from all over the metro Grand Rapids area (population over 1,000,000). Williamston is a suburb of Lansing and had a generational class with 3 Division 1 recruits.

Division 3 Champion: Schoolcraft over Menominee. Two small-town public schools.

Division 4 Champion: Wyoming Tri-Unity Christian over Ewen-Trout Creek. Tri-Unity is located in suburban Grand Rapids and has won 4 state championships now. Like GRCC, they draw from a metro population of over 1,000,000. Ewen-Trout Creek is a consolidated high school in the western Upper Peninsula that draws from two townships with a combined population of under 2,000.

Division 4 has been dominated in recent years by Southfield Christian, who has won 5 state championships while pulling talent from all over metro Detroit.

I bring up Michigan because that's where I grew up and where I started following HS basketball 40 years ago. People complained about recruiting back then. Having been around travel baseball and seen how parents jump from team to team looking for the best "opportunity" for their son, I don't think you're ever going to put the toothpaste back into the tube at this point. I suspect the instances where an unsuspecting kid was happy to stay at Podunk HS until some shady AAU Coach spotted him in the park and coerced him into coming to Basketball Prep are pretty rare. More likely, mom and dad decided when junior was 10 years old and killing it at the local YMCA every Saturday morning that they would shop around until they found the best fit.

My alma mater's two best teams had a star player who transferred in from a smaller school 6 miles away after playing for his father on the JV team for the first half of his freshman year. They made it to two state tournaments, he scored over 2,000 points in college, and came back home to succeed the HoF Coach. Ironically, he resigned at the end of last season to take the job at the smaller school where he started. I know....TLDR...but I think he's pretty happy with how life worked out. The family caught a lot of heat when he transferred way back when.
 

LetsGoBig

Active member
I like his SOS component more than the RPI.....which seems to be heavily weighted toward wins and losses and not as much toward SOS.

In D4 strength of schedule Richmond Hts and Hiland were 1 & 2 Tri Village was 36 and Antwerp was 96

In D3 SOS he had Lutheran East was 1, Africentric 2, Taft 3 and Ottawa Glandorf 6 You can't have 4 teams much more prepared for a deep tourney run than those


100% agree the strength of schedule is the piece I liked. I just thought the RPI numbers were terrible. I know in the SW District he had 3 teams from the Cincinnati sectional in the top 5. Those teams are terrible year in and year out. No way they should ever be in the top 10.
 

spirit454

Well-known member
For most private schools, every student is outside their own system.
Wouldn't the Tuscarawas Central Catholic Elementary school be a feeder to the Tuscarawas Central Catholic Junior High and High School?

The CB multiplier number only applies to the kids that were on last years roster. Not all 44.
 

Irish60

Well-known member
Wouldn't the Tuscarawas Central Catholic Elementary school be a feeder to the Tuscarawas Central Catholic Junior High and High School?
But that logic doesn't apply so well to an area like Akron. There are 8-10 Catholic grade schools that all basically "feed" into the 3 Catholic high schools (4 counting the Elms). If I recall correctly, St. Hilary (the largest of the area grade schools) has been designated as the "feeder" school for STVM, Hoban and Walsh. So, my son, who went to another area Catholic grade school other than St. Hilary is counted as coming from outside the system even though he was always going to STVM and was never in the public school system. Again, I don't have a great big issue with how CB is counted, but it a little incongruous when you consider where catholic high schools get their students in large population centers.
 

Just.here

Well-known member
Wouldn't the Tuscarawas Central Catholic Elementary school be a feeder to the Tuscarawas Central Catholic Junior High and High School?

The CB multiplier number only applies to the kids that were on last years roster. Not all 44.
Most private schools are not like Tuscarawas CC
 

Smalls

Well-known member
It is called education based athletics. If you are transferring to a school for athletics, then you should be punished. If it is academics then you have an argument. Do you think these kids that transferred to Richmond Heights did it for academics? What is the point in the athletic transfer for these kids to Richmond Heights? I get the Harris kid is going to WVU, but you think he wouldn't have got an offer being at Glenoak? Where is the next best college one of their kids is going to? Wooster? there is no NBA future for these kids, so academics should be behind the transfer choice, not athletics.

I don't know the Richmond Heights kid's situation.

I was talking about the Michigan State kid whose family actually moved to a new district and was forced to sit.

To have his prior school petition the MHSAA in order so he can not play is pretty pathetic in my eyes. It is about the kid not some adults acting like jilted lovers. I bet his former teammates still wanted him to be able to play.

It also seems to me that most of the people who have issues with these teams are adults not the kids who play against them. Most kids look forward to the challenge and don't put a second thought into where the kids went to school prior, what their address is or how their school is paid for. I played for a public school and looked forward to playing the best teams possible with no concern of how they got there.

Personally I would prefer a separate state tournament for public, non open enrollment schools. But the rest of the schools can continue to be split in the same manner as now. Don't care if your CB is 1 or 201. No such thing as being a little bit pregnant.
 

spirit454

Well-known member
But that logic doesn't apply so well to an area like Akron. There are 8-10 Catholic grade schools that all basically "feed" into the 3 Catholic high schools (4 counting the Elms). If I recall correctly, St. Hilary (the largest of the area grade schools) has been designated as the "feeder" school for STVM, Hoban and Walsh. So, my son, who went to another area Catholic grade school other than St. Hilary is counted as coming from outside the system even though he was always going to STVM and was never in the public school system. Again, I don't have a great big issue with how CB is counted, but it a little incongruous when you consider where catholic high schools get their students in large population centers.
HE would only be a part of the CB number the year after he was a varsity player on the roster.
 

Just.here

Well-known member
Most are. Most areas that have a private catholic high school have at least one catholic elementary. in fact catholic elementary schools are much more frequent than high schools.
And those Catholic elementary schools are not associated with the high schools.
Lakewood Catholic Academy isn’t associated with St. Edward
St. Benedict’s is not related to Benedictine
Holy Name isn’t even related to Holy Name
Now if you want all Catholic grade school students to count as 0 CB then you wont find any Catholic high school to disagree with you
 

spirit454

Well-known member
And those Catholic elementary schools are not associated with the high schools.
Lakewood Catholic Academy isn’t associated with St. Edward
St. Benedict’s is not related to Benedictine
Holy Name isn’t even related to Holy Name
Now if you want all Catholic grade school students to count as 0 CB then you wont find any Catholic high school to disagree with you
Again, as far as the CB is concerned, the HS gets to tag a feeder school from the lower level and the ONLY kids that count towards the CB are varsity players that came from outside that feeder. There is not one grade school kid counted in the CB.
 

Just.here

Well-known member
Again, as far as the CB is concerned, the HS gets to tag a feeder school from the lower level and the ONLY kids that count towards the CB are varsity players that came from outside that feeder. There is not one grade school kid counted in the CB.
Right, and for a lot of schools the majority of kids don’t come from that 1 school
 

tcgobucks

Well-known member
3 public divisions and 2 private divisions. Easy solution. Would bring the crowds back to state games too.
Richmond Heights and Taft are both public.....having public and private divisions would change the fact that public schools bring in just as many transfers and privates
 

Irish60

Well-known member
So he counted as a 7 in the CB. Which did nothing to ASVSM in most years.
Sure, if you look at one kid it doesn't make a difference. But what about if you look at all those kids who went to the other 9 or so area Catholic schools and who went on to play varsity sports at STVM or Hoban or Walsh? Is it "fair" to consider all those kids as belonging to the public school where they live even though their families chose to send them to private schools for their elementary education?
 
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