competitive balance

HomeRun10

Active member
I agree, but Lutheran East and Taft have been d2 in the past. OG hasn't been d2 in a long time. You take OG out of the equation though there is no one else that stands a chance. Private schools are the only ones.

Richmond Heights, is nuts.....that is not d4 basketball. The worst part about it is their competitive balance number is a "0". How that is physically possible I am not sure!
Apartments come by real cheap in Richmond evidently. If I can remember correctly Josiah Harris brother was playing at Glenoak while he was a sophomore playing at Richmond. The thing with Richmond Heights as mentioned before, is their head coach, who is also their Athletic Director is the coach of All Ohio Red, his assistants are coaches for them as well, they can "recruit" these kids in to play for Richmond Heights. Look at the rest of their athletics, they no longer have football, and their other boys teams have low numbers and are not very good. It is the AD's job to turn in the correct competitive balance number, maybe that should be checked into
 

cincyhoops

Well-known member
No. What I'd rather is not consider punishing these rural schools, especially at the D4 level, who win a state title with home grown talent. Most public schools that fit into that category have a once in a lifetime group of kids who pass through and then are gone and the school goes back to just hoping for a district title and beyond.

Have to figure out away to hit the target that is truly the culprit in this case. I don't think hitting the next group of kids at a small rural school solves this problem.
Ok... well then get blasted by teams like Richmond Heights in DIV.
 

tcgobucks

Well-known member
O-G has 3 JH teams feeding into their program and has been within 15 or less of being bumped up for some time, they should be bumped up to D2. It's most of the reason why most D3 schools in the NW District can't keep up with them.
Lol....that's ridiculous. NW Ohio schools can't keep up because the kids in the district grow up with basketball from the day they can stand. It's been like that for 40 years. It has nothing to do with how many kids they have....you only have 12 guys on a team at once lol
 

Irish60

Well-known member
Every scenario has inequities in it. But how about this? Take each school's schedule. Add up the RPI of the teams they play from the year before. Then, the top 1/4 play in the D1 tournament; the next 1/4 play in the D2 tournament, etc. There may be geographical issues when it comes to the divisions. And this wouldn't work for football where it's more of a numbers game and enrollment almost HAS to be a large factor. But if they did this in basketball, then I can guarantee you that STVM would be D1. I'm not sure about Richmond Heights schedule, but it would likely make them a D2 school. I think something like this would slot the teams more realistically and would make for a better tournament.
 

hammer89

Well-known member
The issue with all potential solutions is that it’s up to the ADs to actually implement them, and they don’t seem heavily inclined to do so. Everything with the OHSAA is a simple majority vote of member schools. Schools that do things the “right way” are presumably a majority, so they either haven’t come up with better solutions than what we currently have, or are generally ok with the status quo.
 

trojandave

Active member
The end result of the issues of competitive balance, AAU influence, and transfers is that there just isn't as much interest in the state tournament as there used to be. Attendance hasn't been good for years now, long before gas, ticket prices and other effects of inflation took money out of patrons' pocket books. The state tournament is supposed to be a tournament where all 4 teams in most years have a reasonable chance to win the state, but blowouts and mismatches are becoming all the more common for the reasons listed above.
 

Kurt Rambis

Well-known member
The issue with all potential solutions is that it’s up to the ADs to actually implement them, and they don’t seem heavily inclined to do so. Everything with the OHSAA is a simple majority vote of member schools. Schools that do things the “right way” are presumably a majority, so they either haven’t come up with better solutions than what we currently have, or are generally ok with the status quo.
you mentioned the key word: "AD's"

If AD's wuldnt tolerate this crap, we wouldnt have these issues
 

RJH

New member
Change how each schools enrollment #’s are counted. If a student moves/transfers into a district, their enrollment # counts as to what grade they’re going to be in. Example: if Billy is in 3rd grade when his parents move to school A, his enrollment count is 3 boys as long as he’s at school A. If school A brings in 5 AAU players in grade 9, each would count as 9 boys or an enrollment of 45. School A May also bring in 4 football players and 3 students in the band as freshman. They would increase schools enrollment # by 63. If schools have no affiliation with any K-8 schools all students would count as 9. This would bump up most schools by a division and protect schools somewhat that play with homegrown students.
 

tcgobucks

Well-known member
Change how each schools enrollment #’s are counted. If a student moves/transfers into a district, their enrollment # counts as to what grade they’re going to be in. Example: if Billy is in 3rd grade when his parents move to school A, his enrollment count is 3 boys as long as he’s at school A. If school A brings in 5 AAU players in grade 9, each would count as 9 boys or an enrollment of 45. School A May also bring in 4 football players and 3 students in the band as freshman. They would increase schools enrollment # by 63. If schools have no affiliation with any K-8 schools all students would count as 9. This would bump up most schools by a division and protect schools somewhat that play with homegrown students.

Lol....who cares if a kid moves into a district as a 3rd grader? And why would a kid who is in band...and not in a sport count the same as a kid who transferred in to play basketball or football?
 

RJH

New member
Lol....who cares if a kid moves into a district as a 3rd grader? And why would a kid who is in band...and not in a sport count the same as a kid who transferred in to play basketball or football?
They’re counting all students now aren’t they? Band competitions have different levels based on enrollment as well. Same as tennis, golf, track etc.
 

Just.here

Well-known member
Change how each schools enrollment #’s are counted. If a student moves/transfers into a district, their enrollment # counts as to what grade they’re going to be in. Example: if Billy is in 3rd grade when his parents move to school A, his enrollment count is 3 boys as long as he’s at school A. If school A brings in 5 AAU players in grade 9, each would count as 9 boys or an enrollment of 45. School A May also bring in 4 football players and 3 students in the band as freshman. They would increase schools enrollment # by 63. If schools have no affiliation with any K-8 schools all students would count as 9. This would bump up most schools by a division and protect schools somewhat that play with homegrown students.
So Tuscarawas Central Catholic, who’s enrollment is 44, moves up to division 1 because each kid counts as 9+?
 

tcgobucks

Well-known member
They’re counting all students now aren’t they? Band competitions have different levels based on enrollment as well. Same as tennis, golf, track etc.
Right, but you can't count a kid who moves in in 3rd grade as 3 students lol
 

tcgobucks

Well-known member
They’re counting all students now aren’t they? Band competitions have different levels based on enrollment as well. Same as tennis, golf, track etc.

So a guy gets a new job with a company in a small town. He moves into town with his family. A junior, a freshman, a 7th grader and a 5th grader.....so the school just gained 32 kids? Seems reasonable lol
 

D4fan

Well-known member
So a guy gets a new job with a company in a small town. He moves into town with his family. A junior, a freshman, a 7th grader and a 5th grader.....so the school just gained 32 kids? Seems reasonable lol
Football coach is going to be a little dismayed to find out his team got moved up from D5 to D3 because 8 AAU Seniors moved into the district.
 

RJH

New member
So a guy gets a new job with a company in a small town. He moves into town with his family. A junior, a freshman, a 7th grader and a 5th grader.....so the school just gained 32 kids? Seems reasonable lol
They only count the top 3 grades, so it would increase 11 rather than 1.
 

green_genes

Well-known member
I like the idea from another thread of creating an open division. If you want to schedule top teams around the state/region for "exposure," presumably you want a shot to be the "real" state champion. If 16 teams enter the open division, you're basically guaranteed to start the tournament at the regional semi-final stage. For schools that attract talent, it would be another selling point.

If a school like SVSM ducks the competition to stay in DII, let them deal with the ridicule of being scared to play the best.
 

Worm02

Well-known member
Divisions are based on enrollment. Not how good you are or who goes to your school. "Competitive balance" has, and always will be, a plethora of excuses for (A) schools that can't win, and (B) districts who can't keep their kids, which goes above and beyond sports. Now, do these seemingly create "disadvantages" on the field/court? Possibly, but as a community, you get what you pay for.

Example... I live in Warren. Yes, the population is smaller than what it used to be, but there's more than enough kids here to have Harding be Division I in football. However, more people here are opting to send their kids to JFK, LaBrae, Howland, etc., which has Harding in Division II (football). Yet, do you think that schools like Marion Local, Coldwater, Steubenville, etc. care that the aforementioned schools are getting kids that would normally go to Harding? They could care less because their programs are based on having solid foundations both on & off the field. Transfers and the whole public/private crap are only brought up when certain schools win. Even when JFK beat Minster a few years back to win state (football), it was looked at as "the exception" instead of "the norm" because most of us expect MAC teams to beat their nonconference opponents.

As for Richmond Heights, why hate on their first state title ever cause they were loaded? It was already mentioned that they competitive balance number is 0! They've been "playing up" for years (I distinctly remember them playing the Terry Rozier-led Shaker Heights team tough) and now, they finally have one state title to show for it. Their dominance in Division IV this year pales in comparison to the way that MAC schools/Kirtland dominate the smaller divisions in football every season. Give Richmond Heights "their flowers" while they can still smell them and stop hating!

Meanwhile, SVSM is located in a large city with struggling public schools. The same can be said for every dominant private school, but SVSM also benefits from being the alma mater of arguably the greatest player in NBA history, who continues to pour into the school. That's another huge reason why kids want to go there because again, as a Harding fan, I know of many athletes who wanted to play here because of the alumni that came before them. And quiet as kept, as much as the phrase "bringing in kids" is thrown around, I promise you that there's schools that are never mentioned on Yappi that try to do it, but don't have the name/clout to pull it off. This is a fact, but of course, nobody cares because they don't win anything special.

People have their own personal reasons/biases why they choose to send their children to certain schools. If you belong to a community that is/on the verge of losing kids, that's an internal issue that needs to be addressed within the schools & community.
 

RJH

New member
Football coach is going to be a little dismayed to find out his team got moved up from D5 to D3 because 8 AAU Seniors moved into the district.
Exactly. It may help prevent recruiting by the schools (coaches) self policing.
 

NWOH

New member
O-G has 3 JH teams feeding into their program and has been within 15 or less of being bumped up for some time, they should be bumped up to D2. It's most of the reason why most D3 schools in the NW District can't keep up with
O-G has 3 JH teams feeding into their program and has been within 15 or less of being bumped up for some time, they should be bumped up to D2. It's most of the reason why most D3 schools in the NW District can't keep up with them.
Dumb
 

Irish60

Well-known member
I like the idea from another thread of creating an open division. If you want to schedule top teams around the state/region for "exposure," presumably you want a shot to be the "real" state champion. If 16 teams enter the open division, you're basically guaranteed to start the tournament at the regional semi-final stage. For schools that attract talent, it would be another selling point.

If a school like SVSM ducks the competition to stay in DII, let them deal with the ridicule of being scared to play the best.
The problem with an open division wouldn't be STVM. I think they would almost have no choice but to step up. The problem I see with this scenario is that I could imagine a number of D1 schools saying they are happy where they are at and see no need to change.
 
This has gotten so wildly out of control and I do not see it slowing down. It is so hard to prove "recruiting" as evidenced by the fluidity of team rosters from year to year... or the OHSAA just doesn't care about it as much as they say.

I am a supporter of separate public and private tournaments. No idea how you pull it off but I think it is worth looking into. I like the idea of an "open" division but not sure how to set up the criteria for putting a school into the open division?
 

FlightCrew

Well-known member
In this next CB cycle their base enrollment is 178 (down from 203 last cycle) so unless they have 30 or so for CB they will be D3 again. Considering last cycle their CB was 0, not likely to move up
OG does not take open enrollment so CB #’s will always be 0 there.
 

D4fan

Well-known member
This has gotten so wildly out of control and I do not see it slowing down. It is so hard to prove "recruiting" as evidenced by the fluidity of team rosters from year to year... or the OHSAA just doesn't care about it as much as they say.

I am a supporter of separate public and private tournaments. No idea how you pull it off but I think it is worth looking into. I like the idea of an "open" division but not sure how to set up the criteria for putting a school into the open division?
About 10 years ago I reported what I believed to be open recruiting to the OHSAA. They did not get back to me so I called them. After a few more attempts I was told they had looked into it, a did not believe any substantial violation had occured.

You be the judge. What I had reported was a private school who listed on its website scholarships available to cover much if not all of tuition costs if the applicant possessed talent of exceptional nature in music, art, academics or athletics. Is that recruiting?

You think it's bad now, just wait until the new state dollars hit the private schools from vouchers. Watch even more transfers utilize this new opportunity.
 

James x2

Well-known member
Richmond Heights is actually a very small city. Not really near Cleveland. Probably closer to Mentor. There is a lot of affordable housing so therefore it is easy to move into the school district.
Up the hill from Euclid to the south. To the north and East from Lyndhurst Brush, and South West of Willoughby. Pretty much bordered by plenty of cities. Mayfield/Highland Hts as well. Mentor is 20 mi. away.
 

Just.here

Well-known member
About 10 years ago I reported what I believed to be open recruiting to the OHSAA. They did not get back to me so I called them. After a few more attempts I was told they had looked into it, a did not believe any substantial violation had occured.

You be the judge. What I had reported was a private school who listed on its website scholarships available to cover much if not all of tuition costs if the applicant possessed talent of exceptional nature in music, art, academics or athletics. Is that recruiting?

You think it's bad now, just wait until the new state dollars hit the private schools from vouchers. Watch even more transfers utilize this new opportunity.
I’m going to say the vast majority of private school students receive financial assistance. So since they offer aid to everyone, no, this is the furthest thing from recruiting
 
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