2022 Elder Football

PURPLE REIGN

Well-known member
Not only is Elder the smallest school in DI at 567...it's not even close.

No other D1 school has less than 600 actual boys and most are 700+.

Id be interested to see where they fit compared to DII schools?
 

Pantherontheporch

Well-known member
Not only is Elder the smallest school in DI at 567...it's not even close.

No other D1 school has less than 600 actual boys and most are 700+.

Id be interested to see where they fit compared to DII schools?
It looks like D-II schools Westerville South (605), Little Miami (582), Riverside (577), Avon (572), Toledo Bowsher (571), and Shaker Heights (570) all have numbers that are higher than Elder's 567.
 

OnTheLine85

Active member
I think these numbers once again prove how good the coaching staff is at Elder. Ramsey is VERY well respected at these other schools and they know his game-planning and scheming can beat them even without the depth they used to have. And the kids never quit - something in the DNA that gives them an edge when there's a talent gap.
 

Omar

Well-known member
I think these numbers once again prove how good the coaching staff is at Elder. Ramsey is VERY well respected at these other schools and they know his game-planning and scheming can beat them even without the depth they used to have. And the kids never quit - something in the DNA that gives them an edge when there's a talent gap.
I hate that narrative. They’re not the “little engine” that could. They have talented kids, not just a bunch of average hard working Joes. They have one of the most advanced weight rooms in the state, a nationally renowed stadium, massive alumni support from a fan base and financial perspective. And none of that is meant to take away from Ramsey. If you look back in time, he’s been ahead of the curve in developing his Offense. He was the 1st coach to fully adopt the Spread (around 2004) after Elder was a run heavy/I Formation Offense early in his tenure. It’s not a coincidence, when he’s got the talent, his Offenses always put up big numbers.
 

OnTheLine85

Active member
I hate that narrative. They’re not the “little engine” that could. They have talented kids, not just a bunch of average hard working Joes. They have one of the most advanced weight rooms in the state, a nationally renowed stadium, massive alumni support from a fan base and financial perspective.

I know some Elder fans like that narrative, but if you look at the facts, it’s just not true.
I know they have talent - but obviously with the numbers, they don't have the depth of talent. All I'm saying is there have to be other things that set them apart to allow them to compete regularly with schools much bigger. And I think some of that is great coaches, and some of that is kids that are probably less skilled (speed and size) but make up for some of it with toughness.

It's a numbers issue more than anything, and it's a testament to a few things at Elder that they continue to compete at a high level. What other school that small can be an annual contender in D1? That says something.
 
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Omar

Well-known member
I know they have talent - but obviously with the numbers, they don't have the depth of talent. All I'm saying is there have to be other things that set them apart to allow them to compete regularly with schools much bigger. And I think some of that is great coaches, and some of that is kids that are probably less skilled (speed and size) but make up for some of it with toughness.

It's a numbers issue more than anything, and it's a testament to a few things at Elder that they continue to compete at a high level. What other school that small can be an annual contender in D1? That says something.
The 4 best programs (Hoban, WW, LS Massillon) at the D2 level could win D1 in a given year.
 

OnTheLine85

Active member
The 4 best programs (Hoban, WW, LS Massillon) at the D2 level could win D1 in a given year.
I don't disagree - my point is it's pretty impressive to be that consistent in D1 Ohio with having that few kids. You don't agree? I think it's really impressive. That's not easy.
 

Omar

Well-known member
I don't disagree - my point is it's pretty impressive to be that consistent in D1 Ohio with having that few kids. You don't agree? I think it's really impressive. That's not easy.
It’s not easy, but I also think people overlook the individual talent when pushing that narrative.
 

OnTheLine85

Active member
It’s not easy, but I also think people overlook the individual talent when pushing that narrative.
I don't think it's a bad thing to say that Elder is usually slower and smaller than most of the teams they are competing against for a state title. I think most everyone would agree with that, including Elder's own coaches and fans. But....they still compete year after year. I don't think it's a narrative.

They do more with less. And I'm not saying that disparagingly, but as a tremendous compliment. And that's a testament to the coaches and the kids. It may not get you state title runs every other year, but that doesn't mean it's not very impressive.

If they had some consistent speed, they would be awesome. I don't know what the answer is to that equation for getting more speed (is it recruiting or training). But going out and recruiting speed doesn't seem to be their modus operandi. I think their coaching prowess and talent level is a separate argument from their approach to building a team - which I agree is much different than most around them.

You will probably disagree with this, but I think they enjoy showing people they can beat you without doing all of the external recruiting and shuffling of talent in and out. I think they view it as a "screw you" to alot of programs.
 
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Omar

Well-known member
I don't think it's a bad thing to say that Elder is usually slower and smaller than most of the teams they are competing against for a state title. I think most everyone would agree with that, including Elder's own coaches and fans. But....they still compete year after year. I don't think it's a narrative.

They do more with less. And I'm not saying that disparagingly, but as a tremendous compliment. And that's a testament to the coaches and the kids. It may not get you state title runs every other year, but that doesn't mean it's not very impressive.

If they had some consistent speed, they would be awesome. I don't know what the answer is to that equation for getting more speed (is it recruiting or training). But going out and recruiting speed doesn't seem to be their modus operandi. I think their coaching prowess and talent level is a separate argument from their approach to building a team - which I agree is much different than most around them.

You will probably disagree with this, but I think they enjoy showing people they can beat you without doing all of the external recruiting and shuffling of talent in and out. I think they view it as a "screw you" to alot of programs.
I don’t know if that’s what the people running the program believe, but I absolutely hate that way of thinking.

And you’re correct, with just 1-2 true athletes per class, they could be a consistent state title contender. Key word, contender, not saying they’d go on a Moeller/Ignatius type run.

Elder isn’t going to flat out recruit or but they’ve got to find a way to get more speed in the program. Most years, they’ll have a QB, OL, DL, TE, even WRs that are high level talents or function well within their systems. What they usually lack is a shutdown corner, big play RB, and athletic OLB.

What always gets me fired up are the fans who would rather continue to see this narrative perpetuate than actually figure out a solution. It means more to them being the scrappy underdog than figuring out how to pull in a few more skill players to create a truly championship level team.
 
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OnTheLine85

Active member
I don’t know if that’s what the people running the program believe, but I absolutely hate that way of thinking.

And you’re correct, with just 1-2 true athletes per class, they could be a consistent state title contender. Key word, contender, not saying they’d go on a Moeller/Ignatius type run.

Elder isn’t going to flat out recruit or but they’ve got to find a way to get more speed in the program. Most years, they’ll have a QB, OL, DL, TE, even WRs that are high level talents or function well within their systems. What they usually lack is a shutdown corner, big play RB, and athletic OLB.

What always gets me fired up are the fans who would rather continue to see this narrative perpetuate than actually figure out a solution. It means more to them being the scrappy underdog than figuring out how to pull in a few more skill players to create a truly championship level team.
Yes I can tell you hate that excuse.

Your fans enjoy the home-grown talent very much it seems. It's part of the identity at this point. I'm guessing a state title as a result of shuffling in players wouldn't be looked at as fondly as the first two, and people would start to lose interest in the program. But who knows.

But damn, I can only imagine what a Tennel Bryant could do in Ramsey's offense.
 

ElderHSfan02

Well-known member
What always gets me fired up are the fans who would rather continue to see this narrative perpetuate than actually figure out a solution. It means more to them being the scrappy underdog than figuring out how to pull in a few more skill players to create a truly championship level team.

Do you really believe that's a majority? Those people seem to be of the Far Left or Far Right type(just an analogy), meaning a small group of people.

I don't think the average fan of Elder football enjoys seeing the team lose to St. X, Moeller, or Lasalle ever. At the end of the day, no one cares what grade schools the kids are coming from. Once they enter the building at Elder, they are Elder kids. Once they put on the uniform, they are just another player the opponent surely doesn't care where they went to grade school or their last name, what their dad does for a living, or how good their dad was when they went through Elder.

What I do think is out there is the average fan or alumni doesn't want Elder literally recruiting athletes to come in and play(meaning phone calls, messaging, offering money/scholarships, special privileges/promises). You know that is going on at other schools.

I think there is a level of recruiting that should be encouraged and accepted. An example would be if a kid is shadowing Elder and he is top jr. high football player, then the football coaches should go out of their way on that shadow day to let them know they want to see him at Elder. Answer any questions the kid has. Give them a tour of the facilities. Maybe that does happen, I don't know. That was just an example. Find out who some of the top 8th grade players in the city are, encourage them to shadow at Elder. I do believe that is legal and doesn't include weekly phone calls, texts, offering scholarships, guaranteed position or playing time. I think that would be a good start. Again, maybe they are doing that, but most of the kids it seems are still mostly feeder kids coming in so maybe not.
 

Omar

Well-known member
Yes I can tell you hate that excuse.

Your fans enjoy the home-grown talent very much it seems. It's part of the identity at this point. I'm guessing a state title as a result of shuffling in players wouldn't be looked at as fondly as the first two, and people would start to lose interest in the program. But who knows.

But damn, I can only imagine what a Tennel Bryant could do in Ramsey's offense.
I think the concept of “home grown” is bogus. Their best player moved from NKY to Cincinnati just so he could go to Elder despite having no familial ties to the school. IMO, once you enroll at Elder, you’re part of the community. It doesn’t matter if you’re 4th generation or 1st.
 

Omar

Well-known member
Do you really believe that's a majority? Those people seem to be of the Far Left or Far Right type(just an analogy), meaning a small group of people.

I don't think the average fan of Elder football enjoys seeing the team lose to St. X, Moeller, or Lasalle ever. At the end of the day, no one cares what grade schools the kids are coming from. Once they enter the building at Elder, they are Elder kids. Once they put on the uniform, they are just another player the opponent surely doesn't care where they went to grade school or their last name, what their dad does for a living, or how good their dad was when they went through Elder.

What I do think is out there is the average fan or alumni doesn't want Elder literally recruiting athletes to come in and play(meaning phone calls, messaging, offering money/scholarships, special privileges/promises). You know that is going on at other schools.

I think there is a level of recruiting that should be encouraged and accepted. An example would be if a kid is shadowing Elder and he is top jr. high football player, then the football coaches should go out of their way on that shadow day to let them know they want to see him at Elder. Answer any questions the kid has. Give them a tour of the facilities. Maybe that does happen, I don't know. That was just an example. Find out who some of the top 8th grade players in the city are, encourage them to shadow at Elder. I do believe that is legal and doesn't include weekly phone calls, texts, offering scholarships, guaranteed position or playing time. I think that would be a good start. Again, maybe they are doing that, but most of the kids it seems are still mostly feeder kids coming in so maybe not.
You can’t directly contact a player, I know that for a fact. If the kids or parents initiate contact, then it’s a different story.

And the bulk of Elder is always going to be feeder kids. That’s fine, it’s a solid framework for the program. What they need to do is figure out how to supplement that base with talent outside the feeder system. They don’t need a complete overhaul, literally just a few kids per class can make a massive difference. I use this example all the time, but if Spencer Ware transfers in back in ‘08, they win back to back state titles.
 

Smarty2022

Well-known member
Omar on his way to ruining another Elder Football thread! More non feeders, hates the little engine that could narrative blah,blah,blah!
 

Omar

Well-known member
Omar on his way to ruining another Elder Football thread! More non feeders, hates the little engine that could narrative blah,blah,blah!
Bc it’s a bogus narrative. They could have multiple P5 recruits on this team and they also have one of the most advanced weight rooms there is at the HS level.
 

OnTheLine85

Active member
What I do think is out there is the average fan or alumni doesn't want Elder literally recruiting athletes to come in and play(meaning phone calls, messaging, offering money/scholarships, special privileges/promises). You know that is going on at other schools.
This is what I mean when I say they approach team structure differently. The coaches seem to accept that their personnel is their personnel. They're not out making these contacts and trying to get certain kids to come. They've refused to fall into the rat race of what alot of high school coaches feel like they have to do to be successful - go get talent.

It seems to fall right in line with the expectations of the administration and people in charge there because it doesn't seem to be changing. They seem at peace with it. I can see how it would irk the fans that want to see more banners and trophies. But even with this, there is consistent success in pretty much all of their sports programs.
 

Omar

Well-known member
This is what I mean when I say they approach team structure differently. The coaches seem to accept that their personnel is their personnel. They're not out making these contacts and trying to get certain kids to come. They've refused to fall into the rat race of what alot of high school coaches feel like they have to do to be successful - go get talent.

It seems to fall right in line with the expectations of the administration and people in charge there because it doesn't seem to be changing. They seem at peace with it. I can see how it would irk the fans that want to see more banners and trophies. But even with this, there is consistent success in pretty much all of their sports programs.
I’m not upset that they aren’t breaking the rules. I do think the Admin as a whole can find ways to attract more non traditional students.

And to their credit, they’ve tried to do things to market the school to non feeder students without violating the rules. A few years ago, they hosted city youth league championships at the Pit. That’s a great way to market the school to kids outside the feeder system.

I don’t know a good comparison at the college level, but I can say they’re not like Iowa or Wisconsin. Those are good programs, but ultimately no threat to win a Title. Elder can win a title, they were runner up just 3 yrs ago and had a very real chance to win that game.

I think this year’s team will ultimately be a 5-6 win team, even though they’ll be decisively better on the field compared to last year. IMO, next year they will have the guns to truly be a state title contender. The Junior Class is really, really good with a lot of depth. The Sophs had a bad record as Frosh, but have some very good individual talent.
 
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OnTheLine85

Active member
The coaches aren’t allowed to pursue players, they’re just following the rules. I’m not upset that they aren’t breaking the rules. I do think the Admin as a whole can find ways to attract more non traditional students.
Well they actually can once contact is made. It's really easy to get around this, and most do with very little to no risk to them or the school. At this point, I don't think anyone really cares anymore as kids aren't confined by geographics.
 

Omar

Well-known member
Well they actually can once contact is made. It's really easy to get around this, and most do with very little to no risk to them or the school. At this point, I don't think anyone really cares anymore as kids aren't confined by geographics.
Elder will work with kids who reach out, but they’re never going to initiate contact. And I’m sure people care if coaches are breaking the rules.
 

OnTheLine85

Active member
Elder will work with kids who reach out, but they’re never going to initiate contact. And I’m sure people care if coaches are breaking the rules.
This is all semantics. Any athlete worth a damn knows that if they are interested in a certain school, they just submit an inquiry, and then it's legal. It's literally the lowest threshold of all time to make it legit.

It's a very simple step and everyone makes this huge deal out of it as "cheating" - it's not a big deal.
 

Omar

Well-known member
By my estimation, there’s 4-5 kids who could be D1 recruits on this team: Arnold, James (Soph), Schorsch, Dugan, Selle, and Browne if he wasn’t likely going to college for basketball. And that’s not to mention quite a few others that are going to play have the opportunity to be play in college at lower levels: Flowers, James (Sr), Freeman, Gutenkust, Heitz, McKenna, Mirus.

This isn’t the little engine that could.
 

Omar

Well-known member
This is all semantics. Any athlete worth a damn knows that if they are interested in a certain school, they just submit an inquiry, and then it's legal. It's literally the lowest threshold of all time to make it legit.

It's a very simple step and everyone makes this huge deal out of it as "cheating" - it's not a big deal.
It’s not semantics, there’s a big difference between the kid/parents initiating contacting and the coaches doing it.
 

OnTheLine85

Active member
By my estimation, there’s 4-5 kids who could be D1 recruits on this team: Arnold, James (Soph), Schorsch, Dugan, Selle, and Browne if he wasn’t likely going to college for basketball. And that’s not to mention quite a few others that are going to play have the opportunity to be play in college at lower levels: Flowers, James (Sr), Freeman, Gutenkust, Heitz, McKenna, Mirus.

This isn’t the little engine that could.
Good players, but I think you are vastly over-exaggerating their upside in some of these cases.
 

OnTheLine85

Active member
It’s not semantics, there’s a big difference between the kid/parents initiating contacting and the coaches doing it.
You don't think the parents of very good players know how to get this done within the rules? I promise you schools that want them are making sure they know the process and are doing it right. And it's not illegal.

If Elder is getting inquiries of interest and not following up, that's a problem. Not even for sports purposes, but for enrollment purposes. I have no clue how much outside interest they get.
 

Omar

Well-known member
Good players, but I think you are vastly over-exaggerating their upside in some of these cases.
I didn’t say they were all Power 5 recruits. The MAC is still D1. And all the players listed for lower levels can absolutely play at MSJ/TMU or some other D2/D3 school.
 
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Omar

Well-known member
You don't think the parents of very good players know how to get this done within the rules? I promise you schools that want them are making sure they know the process and are doing it right. And it's not illegal.

If Elder is getting inquiries of interest and not following up, that's a problem. Not even for sports purposes, but for enrollment purposes. I have no clue how much outside interest they get.
If the parents initiate contact, then it’s all legal. My point is you can’t have coaches contacting kids directly.
 

OnTheLine85

Active member
If the parents initiate contact, then it’s all legal. My point is you can’t have coaches contacting kids directly.
Nowadays, parents initiate contact 95% of the time because they've all been coached as to the proper process. There's not alot of illegal recruiting going on because most parents now know the process. There are tons of people in the know communicating how it should be done to keep the coaches and schools out of trouble.

This idea that all of these coaches are breaking the rules just isn't reality anymore.
 

FourthAndOne

Active member
Moeller is going to be loaded with talent and speed for the next 2-3 years. IMHO coaching could be the weakness at Moe that gives St X and Elder a chance. Their coaches aren’t horrible but they are a step or two below both St X and Elder. But again that’s just my opinion.
I use to be in this camp but after last season I think Coach Elder and his staff are on par with the rest of the coaches in the GCL.
 

Omar

Well-known member
Nowadays, parents initiate contact 95% of the time because they've all been coached as to the proper process. There's not alot of illegal recruiting going on because most parents now know the process. There are tons of people in the know communicating how it should be done to keep the coaches and schools out of trouble.

This idea that all of these coaches are breaking the rules just isn't reality anymore.
Then we’re on the same page. I know for a fact, Elder will work with parents who reach out, even if their kids are not super star athletes. The idea they’re going to close themselves off from inquiry is not true. The question is how do you get more parents/players to make that initial contact.

At the end of the day, Elder is a lot closer to being in that top tier of programs, frequently contending for a state title, than they are just being an average 5-6 win program. If Corey Kiner, who played on the same grade school team as Drew Ramsey, goes to Elder, they very likely win state a few years ago. In HS, one player can raise the level of play for an entire team well beyond their ceiling.
 
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