Questioning calls and Coaching Misconduct

K

kbiz

Well-known member
So at least in Ohio, coaching misconduct is not a “thing” and therefore there are at least two discussions at the table per match.

Now I’m not talking about fake-questioning in order to buy your wrestler a free break. I’m talking about going to the table knowing good and well that you’re not going to get it overturned but just to let the ref know you noticed that was a close call and you want him to know that he needs to award the next close one in favor of your kid. Or worse- to just vent your frustration that your wrestler isn’t performing as well as you expected and you’d like the blame the ref for that.

But misconduct is NEVER called. The rules are pretty clear but ignored by everyone. But maybe that needs to be explored?

Could it be that everyone ignores the coaching misconduct rules because we all collectively decided they are so bad that the sport is better to ignore them?

This might be the problem. If the rule is strictly enforced, ANY unpaid assistant who questions a judgement call puts the head coach at risk. A second misconduct by any other assistant means the head coach gets ejected, while the offending coaches get to stay and abuse the refs some more. It’s insane.

But while it’s not insane to watch a coach questioning judgement calls twice per match, it is pretty annoying. It seems we have accepted annoying to avoid insanity.

I don’t know what the solution is, but clearly the current rules are inadequate, otherwise they wouldn’t be ignored. Maybe coaching misconduct should apply to the coach who commits the crime? Maybe give each team a certain number of “challenge flags” per event? IDK just thinking out loud.
 
 
Part of the problem is that officials are rated by coaches and you don't want to hit a head coach and risk the wrath of getting on the bad side of the coaches and be excluded from high level tournaments. But I agree, it should be enforced. If it were, then a lot of this nonsense would quit.
 
Mr. Red said:
Part of the problem is that officials are rated by coaches and you don't want to hit a head coach and risk the wrath of getting on the bad side of the coaches and be excluded from high level tournaments. But I agree, it should be enforced. If it were, then a lot of this nonsense would quit.
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Granted coaches do rate the officials, but the weight of a coaches eval holds a LOT less weight than it did 12-15 years ago; just for the reason you mentioned.
 
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I watched coaches misconduct called against the Dublin coach in the semis (aguilla/Wilson) on the last stall call at the end of regulation. I told my assistant as he was walking up I can't see how he's going to question that without getting hit. And he did.

So I know it happened at least once. I over heard a couple schools get announced for the -1 team point.
 
Cjlewis01 said:
I watched coaches misconduct called against the Dublin coach in the semis (aguilla/Wilson) on the last stall call at the end of regulation. I told my assistant as he was walking up I can't see how he's going to question that without getting hit. And he did.

So I know it happened at least once. I over heard a couple schools get announced for the -1 team point.
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Was that the match where the official allowed a wrestler to choose neutral in a 30/30 tiebreaker?
 
dion said:
I will put in on ignore.
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You are not allowed to question a judgement call, but you are allowed to question why something was called the way it is. So basically coaches are going to the table, playing the i am questioning your call, but not questioning your call.
 
miketyson said:
You are not allowed to question a judgement call, but you are allowed to question why something was called the way it is. So basically coaches are going to the table, playing the i am questioning your call, but not questioning your call.
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Good post! However, repeated "asking for a clarification" will become tiresome, and in my world, would result in the warning and a point if continued.
 
miketyson said:
You are not allowed to question a judgement call, but you are allowed to question why something was called the way it is. So basically coaches are going to the table, playing the i am questioning your call, but not questioning your call.
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I’m not sure that’s true. If you need to know why refs make decisions, it’s probably best to ask him after the match is over as doing so in the middle of a match would be an inappropriate time to get a tutorial on the rules.

If you watch college, you’ll see that the correct purpose of going to the table is to question how a rule was applied, and you better make damn sure you’re right, and that you have the rule in question memorized verbatim, and have the ability to recite it.

Also, as in a courtroom, the WAY you address the ref is important too. For example, it would be wrong to say,”you missed him locking hands!” The proper way is to ASK the ref, “Did you see him lock hands?” I saw a match once where a wrestler was being pulled back inbounds and the fleeing wrestler grabbed the edge of the mat so tight that he pulled it several feet off the floor. When the ref failed to call the technical violation, the coach ASKED, “Did you see him grab the mat?” Of course the ref, blind as a bat was the only human being both in attendance and among the millions watching to NOT see it - he answered “no.” But, the coach didn’t get hit with misconduct. 😂
 
kbiz said:
I’m not sure that’s true. If you need to know why refs make decisions, it’s probably best to ask him after the match is over as doing so in the middle of a match would be an inappropriate time to get a tutorial on the rules.

If you watch college, you’ll see that the correct purpose of going to the table is to question how a rule was applied, and you better make damn sure you’re right, and that you have the rule in question memorized verbatim, and have the ability to recite it.

Also, as in a courtroom, the WAY you address the ref is important too. For example, it would be wrong to say,”you missed him locking hands!” The proper way is to ASK the ref, “Did you see him lock hands?” I saw a match once where a wrestler was being pulled back inbounds and the fleeing wrestler grabbed the edge of the mat so tight that he pulled it several feet off the floor. When the ref failed to call the technical violation, the coach ASKED, “Did you see him grab the mat?” Of course the ref, blind as a bat was the only human being both in attendance and among the millions watching to NOT see it - he answered “no.” But, the coach didn’t get hit with misconduct. 😂
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As a retired coach/official of close to 50 years I would hope I didn't carry/conduct myself the way I've seen many judges do. There are numerous reasons to approach the table without earning a misconduct. How you would approach me was often more important than what your question might be.
 
Cjlewis01 said:
Yes. And I know I would have had a hard time going back to the table after getting hit with misconduct (justifiably so) on a rule I wasn't sure in...
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Too bad he didn't ask about the "really important" miscall. There would have been no misconduct on that. LOL!!
 
As a coach you can ask about the misapplication of a rule, you can not question judgment. I have given several misconduct warning this year, even had one last week at districts. With that being said if they want a clarification or whatnot and are calm and polite and depending on how they word things, I typically won't penalize them. Now if they are acting a fool or if it's repetitive then yes I'm going to, but a questioning judgment will get one everytime from me without fail
 
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StillNeutral said:
but a questioning judgment will get one everytime from me without fail
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Right or wrong there have been times when I could easily have interpreted my judgment being questioned, and I've looked them squarely in the eyes said "You need to be careful", turned around and walked back to the mat; done deal. Sometimes my judgment just said, let it slide.
 
StillNeutral said:
As a coach you can ask about the misapplication of a rule, you can not question judgment. I have given several misconduct warning this year, even had one last week at districts. With that being said if they want a clarification or whatnot and are calm and polite and depending on how they word things, I typically won't penalize them. Now if they are acting a fool or if it's repetitive then yes I'm going to, but a questioning judgment will get one everytime from me without fail
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You forgot to add, per rule 7-5-4, that if there is no misapplication of a rule, it is coaches misconduct and it is penalized per penalty chart.
 

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350zjk said:
Right or wrong there have been times when I could easily have interpreted my judgment being questioned, and I've looked them squarely in the eyes said "You need to be careful", turned around and walked back to the mat; done deal. Sometimes my judgment just said, let it slide.
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I've done the same/similar, and let them know we are questioning judgement and if they have another question
 
ShootNation said:
Was that the match where the official allowed a wrestler to choose neutral in a 30/30 tiebreaker?
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Yes, that was the match. HOWEVER, the argument that occurred was about something at the end of regulation. I personally thought it was to buy time for the wrestler, which was probably why the coach got "hit". The choice of neutral in 30/30 was never questioned to the best of my knowledge during the course of the match.
 
bucksman said:
Yes, that was the match. HOWEVER, the argument that occurred was about something at the end of regulation. I personally thought it was to buy time for the wrestler, which was probably why the coach got "hit". The choice of neutral in 30/30 was never questioned to the best of my knowledge during the course of the match.
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What do you think the odds are going to the table gets that decision by the official fixed?
 
i went to the table one time over a head scissor from the neutral position. ref stopped the match for it late 3rd period of a tie match in sectional semis. I held the match up for 20 minutes for misapplication of a rule.
The next week at the beginning of districts the ref came up to me and told me that he had talked to the state about me and if I got out of my seat one time that weekend he was throwing me out and I wouldnt be at state.
The next Monday I called the state to ask what the heck this was all about. Te state told me they had never heard of me and the ref did NOT in fact call and talk to them about me.
when I held the match up, the head ref I dealt with was the DAD of the ref on the mat that made the call. I didn't know that at the time. Needless to say the head scissor that he stopped the match for was not a penalty point (my kid won in ot)
many refs, but not all will back others up to save face.
 
Do not throw the coaches under the bus? Let them rate the officials but at the end day the Refs are on a rotation of every 2 years. Example Jimmy refs the state in 2023 and then 2024 he does not and will not get 2025 state. People it is 2024 these refs have as much entitlement as the kids. Guys do not want officiate anymore cause they do not get state assignment. Pushing people around: Case in point at the Highest level you get below avg officials and guys that are not up to speed or the level they are officiating: NEED MORE REFS .....GIVE THEM MORE MONEY AND LET THEM REF THE STATE TOURNAMENT?
 
I believe that the AD of the school rates officials, which is tough because most AD's do not know the sport that well.
 
wrestlfan said:
i went to the table one time over a head scissor from the neutral position. ref stopped the match for it late 3rd period of a tie match in sectional semis. I held the match up for 20 minutes for misapplication of a rule.
The next week at the beginning of districts the ref came up to me and told me that he had talked to the state about me and if I got out of my seat one time that weekend he was throwing me out and I wouldnt be at state.
The next Monday I called the state to ask what the heck this was all about. Te state told me they had never heard of me and the ref did NOT in fact call and talk to them about me.
when I held the match up, the head ref I dealt with was the DAD of the ref on the mat that made the call. I didn't know that at the time. Needless to say the head scissor that he stopped the match for was not a penalty point (my kid won in ot)
many refs, but not all will back others up to save face.
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I think I know who you speak of. LOL
 
Beans100 said:
Do not throw the coaches under the bus? Let them rate the officials but at the end day the Refs are on a rotation of every 2 years. Example Jimmy refs the state in 2023 and then 2024 he does not and will not get 2025 state. People it is 2024 these refs have as much entitlement as the kids. Guys do not want officiate anymore cause they do not get state assignment. Pushing people around: Case in point at the Highest level you get below avg officials and guys that are not up to speed or the level they are officiating: NEED MORE REFS .....GIVE THEM MORE MONEY AND LET THEM REF THE STATE TOURNAMENT?
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I saw several new officials this year at state. I also saw for the second year in a row, (IMO) one of the better officials was working as a "bopper". When asked why he wasn't officiating- he gave a well rehearsed answer "That's just how they do it". If that is true, why are we not using our best officials to officiate the best kids at the highest level? Refs can only officiate so many years in a row at state then have to sit? Is this true?
 
miketyson said:
I believe that the AD of the school rates officials, which is tough because most AD's do not know the sport that well.
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LOL!! Another complete joke. There are AD's out there who are very diligent and cognizant on their ratings, but at least half go by what the coach says or just guess.
 
jhoward1972 said:
I think I know who you speak of. LOL
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him and I buried the hatchet and I truly hope you don't. I have no I'll will toward him at all. it happened and is a bygone. but refs are humans and prone to errors just like all of us are.
sadly, I have another ref/ friend that has told me point blank there is a coach here in Ohio- I wont say his name- that he looks forward to throwing out during a critical time just to get him.
 
ShootNation said:
Was that the match where the official allowed a wrestler to choose neutral in a 30/30 tiebreaker?
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How can any process that qualifies an official that makes this mistake a "state" official? There is simply no excuse for an official to make this fundamental mistake at that level. None.
 
wrestlfan said:
him and I buried the hatchet and I truly hope you don't. I have no I'll will toward him at all. it happened and is a bygone. but refs are humans and prone to errors just like all of us are.
sadly, I have another ref/ friend that has told me point blank there is a coach here in Ohio- I wont say his name- that he looks forward to throwing out during a critical time just to get him.
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I don't have any issues with the refs. A few I'm happier to see than others but it's a tough sport and all you can hope for is consistency. My only pet peeve is when two refs are on the mat and get the call wrong. Thats a little irritating. But I have a few more years of kids wrestling so i stay neutral as possible. Haha
 
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