Mar-A-Lago raided by the FBI

CatAlum said:
18 USC 793 is part of Chapter 37 of the United States Code...titled the ESPIONAGE AND CENSORSHIP ACT.
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Means nothing against the principle of unlimited executive privilege. The Democrat principle is: The President has unlimited authority to declassify any document he wants unless he's Trump. The President has unlimited authority to categorize any record he wants as part of his personal records unless he's Trump. The Presidential Records Act has no formal penalties unless it's Trump in which case he blocked from running again.
 
Happier said:
This summary of events I just heard leading to the execution of the warrant was interesting and may demonstrate how much trouble Trump is in:

When the FBI went to Mar-o-Lago based on National Archives documents issue and Trump turned over the initial 15 boxes FBI noticed a lot of the material Trump still had was top secret and classified.

Those agents notified Department of Justice who reviewed the list of material and selected Jay Bratt to negotiate with Trump and his lawyers about the boxes still at Mar-o-Lago. Jay Bratt is the head of counter intelligence and export control (whose job, remember, is to prevent nuclear proliferation) for DOJ, not the FBI.

When Bratt saw the documents there he obtained a subpoena to review video taken by Mar-o-Lago’s security system. Bratt was able to see who was accessing the rooms where Trump was storing the classified material. This is the point DOJ immediately went for the warrant.
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Happy "heard" this ?
 
wolves82 said:
OK, so your advice is to pick one extreme or the other and go "all-in"? Either a Socialist state or a Fascist state? No thanks.
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Since I've been there and done that as a magical middle person I can recognize how your argument falls apart in the first sentence: The position of one side in this debate is not extreme. This is NOT an argument between a socialist on one side and a fascist on the other.

But hey I'm wiling to think that maybe I'm a partisan ideologue living in an information bubble so I'll let you help me out. What policies of Trump or modern conservatism do you, as a lifelong republican, believe are extreme?

* Is Trump's position on the border extreme? Is it extreme to want a secure border?

* Is Trump's position on illegal migration extreme? Is it extreme to want to remove illegals from the country?

* Is Trump's position on legal immigration extreme. Is it extreme to favor immigration but want it merit based rather then family based?

* Is Trump's position on taxes extreme? Is it extreme to want to lower business and individual taxes?

* Is Trump's position on regulations extreme? Is it extreme to want to reduce the regulatory burden on business and individuals?

* Is Trumps position on putting America first extreme?

* Is Trump's desire to have a strong US military extreme?

* Is Trump's goal for the United States to NOT be the world's policeman extreme?

* Is Trump's desire to see the other nations in NATO pay their fair share in our mutual defense extreme?

* Is placing targeted tariffs on Chinese goods in an effort to force a level economic playing field extreme?

* Is the idea that there are biological women and biological men extreme?

* Is the idea that abortion in the 3rd trimester is infanticide extreme?

* Is the idea that equal opportunity for all precludes affirmative action type programs for some extreme?

* Were Trump's picks fr the SCOTUS extreme?

I could keep going but you get the picture. I await with interest what a lifelong republican considers extreme on the above list.
 
wolves82 said:
In America we used to be able to govern by being reasonable and compromising. Been a Republican my whole adult life becuase I prefer in smaller government and capitalism / free markets. America was at it's peak when the moderates in both parties were able to compromise and arrive at governing decisions. The polarization is so intense now that all "governing" is simply arguing, name-calling, and grandstanding for the next election. And morons/criminals like Gaetz, MTG, Hawley, Boebert now occupy seats in Congress representing my party?
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I'll expand on my previous example to show why this is misleading and a Trojan horse guaranteed to allow the left to triumph over conservatism:

At the start of your story the extreme leftist is standing on one goal line while the extreme conservative is standing on the other. But through the magical reasoning of our moderates both guys walk to the 50 yard line and clasp hands! Wow, we have glorious compromise and wise government! Hallelujah!

But wait, the leftist orders the conservative to stand at the 50 yard line while they walk back to their goal line. Oh no DIVISION! And the moderates demand that both party's meet at the halfway point. Viola, compromise and wise government is reestablished at the lefts 25 yard line.

But again and again and again the leftist orders the conservative to stay where they are on the field while they retreat back to their goal line. And the useful idiot moderates keep demanding that they meet again in the middle and restore the glory of compromise to the political landscape.

Well it finally works and we are one nation standing at the lefts half yard line. As a normal MODERATE conservative I say NO THANKS to your idea of moderation in politics.
 
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This makes a great point:

pjmedia.com

Another Huge Red Flag in the Trump Raid Story

pjmedia.com pjmedia.com

“Let me address recent unfounded attacks on the professionalism of the FBI and Justice Department agents and prosecutors,” he said. “I will not stand by silently when their integrity is unfairly attacked. The men and women of the FBI and the Justice Department are dedicated patriotic public servants every day. They protect the American people from violent crime, terrorism and other threats to their safety while safeguarding our civil rights. They do so at great personal sacrifice and risk to themselves. I am honored to work alongside them.”

Well, Mr. Attorney General, if they’re so professional and full of integrity, can you explain why the Wall Street Journal apparently knows the contents of all the classified documents and supposedly “top secret” documents removed from Trump’s home and has apparently reviewed some of them?
 
The core of this argument we are having is whether this unprecedented action, where a Dem DOJ gets a warrant to raid the home of an ex-president and leading candidate in the next coming election represents a necessary step to protect the US/uphold the rule of law or is the weaponization and politicization of the DOJ/FBI against a political opponent. Secondary complications are the low perception of credibility of the DOJ/FBI by a large pct of Americans and the firm belief of another large pct of Americans that Bad Orange Man is criminally bad.

But we can get to the crux of the important elements of this by asking our Marcusian lefties a couple of questions and see if they can provide answers.

Given that a red line has been crossed, or, if you prefer, something that has never happened before has now happened, what are the rules going forward as to who can repeat this action and what are the exact criteria that would justify doing it again?

What do you anticipate the new red line is and can you tell us exactly what it is?

Are you comfortable with the thought of, say, a Pres Trump 47 DOJ taking the same action?

Now, they will not answer those questions. They can't because if they try, they will fall into double standards, irrational statements, and reveal their authoritarian bent. They may, probably will, talk about how stupid I am, I'm in a cult, accuse me of conspiracy theories and blah, yada, blah, blah, blah.

However, I want to preemptively assert that the questions are entirely reasonable - and they did not answer them. But maybe someone will surprise me.

After I see the responses, and lack thereof, then I will explain why their ideology is reflected in it. Stay tuned. It will be fun.
 
wolves82 said:
OK, so your advice is to pick one extreme or the other and go "all-in"? Either a Socialist state or a Fascist state? No thanks.

In America we used to be able to govern by being reasonable and compromising. Been a Republican my whole adult life becuase I prefer in smaller government and capitalism / free markets. America was at it's peak when the moderates in both parties were able to compromise and arrive at governing decisions. The polarization is so intense now that all "governing" is simply arguing, name-calling, and grandstanding for the next election. And morons/criminals like Gaetz, MTG, Hawley, Boebert now occupy seats in Congress representing my party?

Meanwhile, America flounders. And the masses have been duped into thinking their side is 100% right, and the other side is 100% wrong. Sorry, that is not how the world works. Shades of grey are everywhere. Time to grow up everyone. Find some reasonable adults to run the country.
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SPOT ON.

We are now essentially governed by an algorithmic loop where anger fuels clicks and drives results. No place for middle of the road common sense. Polarization is it.
 
IVCguy said:
The core of this argument we are having is whether this unprecedented action, where a Dem DOJ gets a warrant to raid the home of an ex-president and leading candidate in the next coming election represents a necessary step to protect the US/uphold the rule of law or is the weaponization and politicization of the DOJ/FBI against a political opponent. Secondary complications are the low perception of credibility of the DOJ/FBI by a large pct of Americans and the firm belief of another large pct of Americans that Bad Orange Man is criminally bad.

But we can get to the crux of the important elements of this by asking our Marcusian lefties a couple of questionsand see if they can provide answers.

Given that a red line has been crossed, or, if you prefer, something that has never happened before has now happened, what are the rules going forward as to who can repeat this action and what are the exact criteria that would justify doing it again?

What do you anticipate the new red line is and can you tell us exactly what it is?

Are you comfortable with the thought of, say, a Pres Trump 47 DOJ taking the same action?

Now, they will not answer those questions. They can't because if they try, they will fall into double standards, irrational statements, and reveal their authoritarian bent. They may, probably will, talk about how stupid I am, I'm in a cult, accuse me of conspiracy theories and blah, yada, blah, blah, blah.

However, I want to preemptively assert that the questions are entirely reasonable - and they did not answer them. But maybe someone will surprise me.

After I see the responses, and lack thereof, then I will explain why their ideology is reflected in it. Stay tuned. It will be fun.
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2022 Tribunals and death sentences. One up is the game.
 
y2h said:
MAGA isn't going anywhere. In fact it's poised to control Congress in November.
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?????????. OK. You can keep trying to run a criminal empire but Americans are growing tired of the stupidity and BS. MAGA is done. Just like Trump!! ?????????????????????
 
Today's round of golf was especially relaxing. The crisp summer air, the birds singing, the trees full and lush, and Trump finally getting brought to justice. Great round!!!
⛳️☀️⛳️??☀️
 
Mean Machine said:
?????????. OK. You can keep trying to run a criminal empire but Americans are growing tired of the stupidity and BS. MAGA is done. Just like Trump!! ?????????????????????
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They are tired of the stupidity and BS and double standards and arrogance of the left.
 
I enjoy wrestling said:
2022 Tribunals and death sentences. One up is the game.
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I hope not.

Dismantle the administrative state and pass strict civil service reform. Fire the middle and upper crust of these dpts and agencies, and, if I had my way, make allegience to the RNC or DNC, or anything other than the constitution punishable with death by hanging or firing squad. Then we can trust our govt again - regardless of who is in the White House.

I'm willing to live under liberal, even leftist-progressive govt if Americans want to be idiots and vote for their own destruction and enslavement. If it becomes chronic, I can immigrate to somewhere that is free. But I am not willing to live under the tyranny of unelected bureaucrats.

Take the administrative state away from the Left and you go a long way toward neutering those commie illegitimate children and restoring our constitutional republic.
 
IVCguy said:
I hope not.

Dismantle the administrative state and pass strict civil service reform. Fire the middle and upper crust of these dpts and agencies, and, if I had my way, make allegience to the RNC or DNC, or anything other than the constitution punishable with death by hanging or firing squad. Then we can trust our govt again - regardless of who is in the White House.

I'm willing to live under liberal, even leftist-progressive govt if Americans want to be idiots and vote for their own destruction and enslavement. If it becomes chronic, I can immigrate to somewhere that is free. But I am not willing to live under the tyranny of unelected bureaucrats.

Take the administrative state away from the Left and you go a long way toward neutering those commie illegitimate children and restoring our constitutional republic.
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These geniuses want to be like the EU and give away our sovereignty to unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.

"International rules based order"
 
IVCguy said:
The core of this argument we are having is whether this unprecedented action, where a Dem DOJ gets a warrant to raid the home of an ex-president and leading candidate in the next coming election represents a necessary step to protect the US/uphold the rule of law or is the weaponization and politicization of the DOJ/FBI against a political opponent. Secondary complications are the low perception of credibility of the DOJ/FBI by a large pct of Americans and the firm belief of another large pct of Americans that Bad Orange Man is criminally bad.

But we can get to the crux of the important elements of this by asking our Marcusian lefties a couple of questions and see if they can provide answers.

Given that a red line has been crossed, or, if you prefer, something that has never happened before has now happened, what are the rules going forward as to who can repeat this action and what are the exact criteria that would justify doing it again?

What do you anticipate the new red line is and can you tell us exactly what it is?

Are you comfortable with the thought of, say, a Pres Trump 47 DOJ taking the same action?

Now, they will not answer those questions. They can't because if they try, they will fall into double standards, irrational statements, and reveal their authoritarian bent. They may, probably will, talk about how stupid I am, I'm in a cult, accuse me of conspiracy theories and blah, yada, blah, blah, blah.

However, I want to preemptively assert that the questions are entirely reasonable - and they did not answer them. But maybe someone will surprise me.

After I see the responses, and lack thereof, then I will explain why their ideology is reflected in it. Stay tuned. It will be fun.
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Yes. If a former POTUS of either party knowingly takes Classified let alone Top Secret documents home with them (or their resort, or both), which is a clear violation, they should be held to account per the statute. And if they will not return them as directed, then the FBI/DOJ should seek a search warrant, and if the warrant gets signed by a judge, they should execute it, and then they should take back the documents. Real rocket science stuff there IVC any more burning questions?
 
Qcity said:
There were multiple servers involved over a number of years. It was impossible for the FBI to know for certain what was deleted and destroyed; they admitted as much. Yet they then took the bizarre step of actually inserting themselves to recommend to the justice department that no charges be filed.


Two sets of justice at the federal level. The set that includes spying, armed raids and handcuffs for innocent republicans; and the set that allows corrupt, criminal democrats to walk. Plain as day.
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The two don’t compare. We are talking about Trumpattempting to commit treason two times.
 
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sapientia et veritas said:
Means nothing against the principle of unlimited executive privilege. The Democrat principle is: The President has unlimited authority to declassify any document he wants unless he's Trump. The President has unlimited authority to categorize any record he wants as part of his personal records unless he's Trump. The Presidential Records Act has no formal penalties unless it's Trump in which case he blocked from running again.
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You don’t declassify top secret documents by waving your hand over them and shouting, “You are now declassified.” Unless your Michael Scott.
 
TigerPaw said:
Yes. If a former POTUS of either party knowingly takes Classified let alone Top Secret documents home with them (or their resort, or both), which is a clear violation, they should be held to account per the statute. And if they will not return them as directed, then the FBI/DOJ should seek a search warrant, and if the warrant gets signed by a judge, they should execute it, and then they should take back the documents. Real rocket science stuff there IVC any more burning questions?
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Do you understand that while president, he can classify or declasify, top secret or otherwise, anything he wants? Given this fact, aren't you making a massive assumption that you don't know whether it is true or not? Yes, yes you are.

You did not answer question #1 or #2.

You did answer question 3, but did not address the specifics of the question.

So, if Trump 47 sics the DOJ on Biden or whoever the Dem nominee is in the election after his 2nd term, you are fine with that. Are you sure? But it's good to have you on record with that. We will hold you to it.

Read the questions. Ponder them. Then answer. Try again.
 
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y2h said:
They are tired of the stupidity and BS and double standards and arrogance of the left.
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We aren't talking about the Left. We are talking about your King. I know you are embarrassed and you are pulling out all the stops to deflect away from your Savior but nothing you do can take the spotlight off your Orange Menace. Sorry man. I know your life is crashing down around you and suddenly your life has no purpose but keep your chin up. Positive thoughts. Who knows, maybe you can send a nice big donation to Donny and he will feel better. Get out the check book.
 
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