35 Second Shot Clock Allowed by NFHS Starting in 2022-2023

winbypin said:
it's more than just a volunteer...they need to understand what actually constitutes a change in possession. I have seen clock operators struggle with correctly starting the clock on an inbound pass. In football they have to wait for the ball to be set, correct? Might be a little more simple in football.
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What constitutes possession or loss thereof will be one major issue. The other is on the occasions when the ball was close to but not hitting (fractions of an inch) or hitting (again, ,just barely) the rim and the SC is improperly administered.

Putting time back or taking time off the game clock and/or shot clock will be a challenging and very inconsistent act by the officials. In NCAA and NBA action, we can just stop action and go to the video to sort it out..... Not going to happen here.
 
AllSports12 said:
The problem is someone who loses their mind when one game out of 18,000 (36,000 over the last two years) has an episode where a team (ahead) holds the ball for 8 minutes.

Don't watch the "abomination" if you don't like it Mr. Drama Queen. The games aren't played to entertain you.

Whether or not I find this "acceptable" is irrelevant.

I am curious however.....

When is the last time you applied for a Varsity Head Coach opening in basketball?
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This type of thing happens all the time - you know it, I know it. It’s disgraceful.
 
AllSports12 said:
The problem is someone who loses their mind when one game out of 18,000 (36,000 over the last two years) has an episode where a team (ahead) holds the ball for 8 minutes.

Don't watch the "abomination" if you don't like it Mr. Drama Queen. The games aren't played to entertain you.

Whether or not I find this "acceptable" is irrelevant.

I am curious however.....

When is the last time you applied for a Varsity Head Coach opening in basketball?
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Don’t watch what? It’s not watching basketball because they’re not playing basketball. It’s watching two teams stand and stare at each other.
 
LELL said:
If I was watching and knowing that's the only way for my team to have a chance in Hades to win, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Many ways to skin a cat!
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But that wasn’t reality - they could have just played the game and had a chance to win. Was a 6 point game at halftime against two teams that were relatively similar (I will admit west hi was better).

But let’s stop acting like this was St Gertrude against the 91 Bulls - it’s completely disengenous.
 
UCArch said:
This type of thing happens all the time - you know it, I know it. It’s disgraceful.
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Name another game in the past two years where a team ahead held the ball for an entire quarter.

I've officiated well over 2,000 varsity games around the country in over 4 decades.....

Had it happen to me once.
 
look - let's also stop acting like the MAJORITY of games are the "stall ball" type games. they aren't. some league/teams play a slow down tempo style of play (see Moe/GCL games) and that's fine. would coaches who do this have to adjust? certainly. and they WOULD, probably quite easily. i don't think the institution of a shot clock at the HS level has to do with the opposition of the coaches. it's all about the logistics/installation/running it/paying for it/etc, hence the year and a half time frame to actually get this up and running.

however, i do understand the worries/concerns of implementing this at all high school levels. my suggestion would be that the state should require all referees to be "shot clock trained". if you are a HS referee, and you are reffing the JV game at a HS, then maybe have that ref show up and do the shot clock for the frosh game as well (and yes, get paid). one official from the frosh game is designated as the shot clock person for the JV game. then, one official from the JV game is designated as the shot clock person for varsity.

yes, that means school districts must budget more money (not sure that the fee should be as much as they make to ref since they're just sitting at the table running the clock) to allocute towards this and if the state votes to approve it, part of this approval may be that the OHSAA/the state must foot some of the bill for this.

that's my suggestion, mainly so you don't have JO SCHMO Dad whose kid is on the floor playing trying to run the shot clock at the same time.

any thoughts on this one? happy to discuss.
 
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AllSports12 said:
Handled the same as when the game clock malfunctions and cannot be fixed....

An alternate time piece (if alternate clock controller is not available) such as a stopwatch is used by the timer.
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Imagine being the guy with a stopwatch with a 35 second shot clock? ? ? ?
 
AllSports12 said:
Putting time back or taking time off the game clock and/or shot clock will be a challenging and very inconsistent act by the officials. In NCAA and NBA action, we can just stop action and go to the video to sort it out..... Not going to happen here.
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Yea...forgot about the barely missing or hitting the rim.
 
smurfyeah19 said:
I think the whole extra volunteer thing is a tad overblown. We do this already in football, let's not make it more than it is. Heck most schools have even installed scoreboards showing players points and fouls
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I'm not sure how most schools do it, but I think the regular clock operator can do the play clock in football. I never understood why that was necessary, the back judge in football (where there are 6 officials) does that every play anyway. Who cares if there is 15 seconds on the play clock or 5. The play clock in football is for the fans more than anything else.

The whole points and fouls scoreboard was an addition that is negative, IMO. If the fans care enough about how many points each kid has, they can keep track themselves. I'd guess if you polled coaches, they would be ok to get rid of the induvial points.
 
AllSports12 said:
Name another game in the past two years where a team ahead held the ball for an entire quarter.

I've officiated well over 2,000 varsity games around the country in over 4 decades.....

Had it happen to me once.
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Lol - do one simple YouTube or Twitter search. It’s everywhere.

I do agree it’s a small percentage - and it’s a small percentage because most competitive coaches will never stoop to this level.

That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be dealt with.
 
Bballer05 said:
however, i do understand the worries/concerns of implementing this at all high school levels. my suggestion would be that the state should require all referees to be "shot clock trained". if you are a HS referee, and you are reffing the JV game at a HS, then maybe have that ref show up and do the shot clock for the frosh game as well (and yes, get paid). one official from the frosh game is designated as the shot clock person for the JV game. then, one official from the JV game is designated as the shot clock person for varsity.

yes, that means school districts must budget more money (not sure that the fee should be as much as they make to ref since they're just sitting at the table running the clock) to allocute towards this and if the state votes to approve it, part of this approval may be that the OHSAA/the state must foot some of the bill for this.

that's my suggestion, mainly so you don't have JO SCHMO Dad whose kid is on the floor playing trying to run the shot clock at the same time.

any thoughts on this one? happy to discuss.
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- The officials will be trained on the rule change. Hopefully, if/when it is implemented we actually take advantage of the camp and scrimmage sessions and fully time those practice sessions.

- The state, possibly in conjunction with the local officiating associations, will train those individuals who will be shot clock timers. While the training won't be extensive, it will be a requirement.... See above for the opportunity to gete some live action during practice sessions.

- We have long advocated for officials to run and be compensated for running game clocks in both football and in basketball. That proposal, even though many states pay registered officials full game fees for running the game clock, has gone over like a lead balloon with our leagues/schools in Ohio. The reason..... money..

There are many, many, many leagues that demand quality people to run their game clocks, however, there are a good number that are dreadful. (at times, you may see two or three different people at the table or in the press box)

Bottom line is, we won't go into this (when it happens) cold turkey.
 
As I’ve mentioned a million times, the root of the issue IMO is overbearing coach control. A small percentage of these coaches will employ the weak stall ball techniques.

But many of them are much more concerned with running THEIR offense vs. giving kids some freedom to develop a broader skill set.

That’s the main reason I like the shot clock, which I’ve stated 6 billion times. It forces coaches to broaden skills for more kids on the team - that leads to better skilled players and more efficient teams.

For the life of me, I have no idea why that concept threatens you so much.
 
UCArch said:
Lol - do one simple YouTube or Twitter search. It’s everywhere.

I do agree it’s a small percentage - and it’s a small percentage because most competitive coaches will never stoop to this level.

That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be dealt with.
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I knew you couldn't name one.

The amount of time this happens is microscopic. Changing a rule or procedure solely for an event that happens at a microscopic rate is wrong in anything we do.
 
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UCArch said:
As I’ve mentioned a million times, the root of the issue IMO is overbearing coach control. A small percentage of these coaches will employ the weak stall ball techniques.

But many of them are much more concerned with running THEIR offense vs. giving kids some freedom to develop a broader skill set.

That’s the main reason I like the shot clock, which I’ve stated 6 billion times. It forces coaches to broaden skills for more kids on the team - that leads to better skilled players and more efficient teams.

For the life of me, I have no idea why that concept threatens you so much.
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Like I said, whether or not it's implemented is irrelevant to what I do.

You have time and again demonstrated that your beef is with a coach who cut your kid. Why you cannot let that go is beyond me...... Your criticism of coaching is also comical as you knowledge of the game of basketball and how it is and should be played is evidenced by the fact that you cited a rule that was rescinded over 30 years ago. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

With that, I no longer desire to play your game.....Gonna now sit back and stall on this one....... should drive you nuts.

You may conclude with a snappy insult to me and all officials out there who sit back and laugh at people like you. ;)
 
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winbypin said:
Yea...forgot about the barely missing or hitting the rim.
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In high school games the officials and the timer get together and just guess, what else you going to do. I'm amused when in college or pro games they'll look at the time when theirs several minutes to go in the game? It doesn't matter. Teams just dribble out the time anyway. If it's under a minute ok, otherwise it's a waste of time.
 
My eyeballs see a stunning lack of skill development at the high school level. I put more of the blame of this on the coaches than I do the kids. All the kids I’ve known that play basketball have no problem working hard to develop a skill set if they are given the opportunity.
 
Bballer05 said:
look - let's also stop acting like the MAJORITY of games are the "stall ball" type games. they aren't. some league/teams play a slow down tempo style of play (see Moe/GCL games) and that's fine. would coaches who do this have to adjust? certainly. and they WOULD, probably quite easily. i don't think the institution of a shot clock at the HS level has to do with the opposition of the coaches. it's all about the logistics/installation/running it/paying for it/etc, hence the year and a half time frame to actually get this up and running.

however, i do understand the worries/concerns of implementing this at all high school levels. my suggestion would be that the state should require all referees to be "shot clock trained". if you are a HS referee, and you are reffing the JV game at a HS, then maybe have that ref show up and do the shot clock for the frosh game as well (and yes, get paid). one official from the frosh game is designated as the shot clock person for the JV game. then, one official from the JV game is designated as the shot clock person for varsity.

yes, that means school districts must budget more money (not sure that the fee should be as much as they make to ref since they're just sitting at the table running the clock) to allocute towards this and if the state votes to approve it, part of this approval may be that the OHSAA/the state must foot some of the bill for this.

that's my suggestion, mainly so you don't have JO SCHMO Dad whose kid is on the floor playing trying to run the shot clock at the same time.

any thoughts on this one? happy to discuss.
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I go to a fair number of small college games, they have shot clocks and I enjoy the pace of the game. It's much more free flowing, quicker paced. That said, I go to alot of high school basketball games and I just think it would be a train wreck. Many high school teams struggle just playing the game, let alone worrying about a shot clock. And as mentioned here, there are probably one or two percent of games where someone is actually intentionally holding the ball.
Now part of me disagrees with the premise that the team leading must give up the ball, even with the lead just because of a shot clock. A team has worked the entire game to get a 10 point lead with 5 minutes to go and they can't sit on the ball because we don't appreciate the fact that a team can hold the ball and make FT's down the stretch to put a game away. We have to have a "fantastic finish" just because.
 
It’s an evolution, not an overnight fix. It will take time, but will produce better players and better games.
 
UCArch said:
Lol - do one simple YouTube or Twitter search. It’s everywhere.

I do agree it’s a small percentage - and it’s a small percentage because most competitive coaches will never stoop to this level.

That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be dealt with.
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Make your mind up. Is it everywhere or is it a small percentage? Cant be both.

Also - managing to the exceptions is always a bad idea.
 
winbypin said:
That's just your opinion.
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Educated opinion based on the evolution of many rules changes over the years to improve the game.

There’s a reason this gains momentum every year. Because strategic basketball minds realize what is going on. The people with the interest of the integrity of the game in mind are the people at the forefront of change.

Not the random panty waste coach that employs a pathetic attempt at a loop hole just to get a W. There’s a reason people are stepping in to ensure change.

None of this would be happening if it wasn’t an issues. You can’t read the tea leaves that are right in front of your face.
 
UCArch said:
There’s alot of games - a small percentage of alot is still enough.
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Someone said there are around 1500 tournament games in Ohio. 1% is only 15 games. It's not a problem. Reality is it's probably less than 1% of games.
 
All of the signs and momentum show this is getting closer and is going to happen eventually.

Leave it to a ref for everyone else in the gym to know it was traveling yet they will be the only one to triple down on their position to tell you 100 ways why it wasn’t, knowing the whole time it was traveling, but not having the conviction just to own a mistake and move on.

This is you in this thread.
 
I have officiated a number of games where the crowd yelled at something that is simply not a rule. Such as the crowd wanting traveling on a player who dove for a loose ball and slid (didn't try to get up or roll) or the crowd screaming for 3 seconds when the ball is in the air on a shot or rebound. Just because everyone in the gym thinks they are right, many times they aren't.
 
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