When is a female not a female

Lancermania

Lancermania

Lancers lead the way!
The sports world’s highest court ruled Wednesday that Olympic gold medalist Caster Semenya and other female runners like her with unusually high testosterone must take medication to reduce their levels of the male sex hormone if they want to compete in certain events – a landmark decision with far-reaching ramifications for other women’s sports.

In a 2-1 ruling, the Court of Arbitration for Sport upheld proposed rules issued by track’s governing body, the IAAF, saying that they are discriminatory but that “such discrimination is a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means” of “preserving the integrity of female athletics.”

The IAAF argued that high, naturally occurring levels of testosterone in athletes like Semenya with “intersex” characteristics that don’t conform to standard definitions of male and female give them an unfair competitive
advantage.

From the Associated Press news wires
 
 
I think it is a fair ruling. She and several other athletes that are born intersexed are in a category of their own, IMHO.

Transgenders are a whole nuther issue. I don't believe any of them should be competing, period. It is an artificial construct. It is NOT nature, nor nature's God creating them as such. Especially the MTF, where boys/men that are clearly male by DNA are allowed to compete with women. Complete BS, IMHO. It will destroy women's sport if that is allowed to continue.
 
A society that can accept gender fluidity will not be able to tolerate two rigid sports classifications long term. I don't know how this will play out.

I believe this ruling did extend the life of separate sports competitions for the two gender classifications, but I can't help but think it's a temporary situation.

I can foresee the day when we have competitions classificiations based on body chemistry or no classifications at all. The former would allow us to have as many classifications as we want and would enable the creation of a whole new set of world records and the enthusiasm that comes with them. The later probably kills sports opportunities for most of society.
 
Last edited:
I really do not know how to feel about this ruling. Conceptually I understand the issue and the corrective measure their are trying to put in place. I see Java's point but this in theory could effect anyone who has naturally elevated testosterone. I guess my question is where do we draw the line. Do we start other test for abnormal fast twitch muscles? I know that is not being scientific but I hope it is getting my point across.

Also with this ruling why is it only going to cover a small amount of events. If I am reading this correctly and she was a 10k runner or in the weights this new rule would not apply.
 
Britain-Athletics-Worlds-.jpg


I will go with my 5 year old watching TV once and asked "Daddy, why does that boy get to run against those girls"?
 
skins99 said:
I really do not know how to feel about this ruling. Conceptually I understand the issue and the corrective measure their are trying to put in place. I see Java's point but this in theory could effect anyone who has naturally elevated testosterone. I guess my question is where do we draw the line. Do we start other test for abnormal fast twitch muscles? I know that is not being scientific but I hope it is getting my point across.

Also with this ruling why is it only going to cover a small amount of events. If I am reading this correctly and she was a 10k runner or in the weights this new rule would not apply.
Click to expand...

Yes, it only applies to a limited # of events, those where the testosterone affects the most.

With regard to the maximum limit set, I believe the ruling calls for hormone levels to be brought down to 10 nmol/liter (my recollection), which is evidently still TWICE the average woman's level.
 
JAVMAN83 said:
Yes, it only applies to a limited # of events, those where the testosterone affects the most.

With regard to the maximum limit set, I believe the ruling calls for hormone levels to be brought down to 10 nmol/liter (my recollection), which is evidently still TWICE the average woman's level.
Click to expand...

1. Why are you shouting?
2. I thought I read 5 nmol?
3. The reason I asked about the specific events is it's an odd ruling. Obviously its directed to try to slow down a certain athlete. The NCAA banned dunking to slow down Lew Alcindor. That rule covered everyone. This ruling is in my opinion similar to that rule except it only applies to power forwards.
 
skins99 said:
1. Why are you shouting?
2. I thought I read 5 nmol?
3. The reason I asked about the specific events is it's an odd ruling. Obviously its directed to try to slow down a certain athlete. The NCAA banned dunking to slow down Lew Alcindor. That rule covered everyone. This ruling is in my opinion similar to that rule except it only applies to power forwards.
Click to expand...

I'm not shouting. When I want to shout, I'll use ALL CAPS! :)

I use caps only when I want to emphasize a word or phrase, not to yell.

You are correct on the 5nmol/L. The following link indicates normal ranges for males & females as accepted by the parties:

https://www.insidethegames.biz/arti...iaaf-and-caster-semenya-a-conundrum-a-tragedy

Semenya is not the only one with DSD. Niyonsaba also claims to be in the same situation. Both went 1-2 at the 2017 WC's. Neither runs like a true female. Sorry to sound sexist, but don't care. The 5 year old of ccrunner609 nailed it perfectly.
 
Ultimately this is such an easy decision. For a hundred years now they have been screaming equality, equality, equality. We've now reached a point, following 50 tears of reverse discrimination against men, where I say make the whole dam shabang one big equal playing field...and may the best organism win. See how they like that kind of equality.
 
I still don't understand how everyone has missed the biggest FACT in this case. She has XY Chromosomes. Here is a small exert from Lets run on the topic and their article is one of the better ones on the issue at hand. We can't forget about the concern at hand here, and that's this is not a psychical difference, it's a biological difference and no XX women can't reach those levels.

Small exert from letsrun

"1) Caster Semenya Has XY Chromosomes
It’s absolutely mind-boggling that virtually every major outlet in the world reporting the Court of Arbitration for Sport ruling yesterday has failed to mention one of the most important facts of the entire case. Caster Semenya has XY chromosomes. It was generally accepted by people following the case closely that Semenya was XY, but now it’s been confirmed as fact since the CAS press release specifically says, “The DSD covered by the Regulations are limited to athletes with ’46 XY DSD’ – i.e. conditions where the affected individual has XY chromosomes.” If she wasn’t XY, the IAAF’s regulations wouldn’t apply to her and she’d have no reason to challenge them.

(In case you forgot what you learned in junior high biology, typically females have XX chromosomes while males are XY)."
 
runnerboy1510 said:
I still don't understand how everyone has missed the biggest FACT in this case. She has XY Chromosomes. Here is a small exert from Lets run on the topic and their article is one of the better ones on the issue at hand. We can't forget about the concern at hand here, and that's this is not a psychical difference, it's a biological difference and no XX women can't reach those levels.

Small exert from letsrun

"1) Caster Semenya Has XY Chromosomes
It’s absolutely mind-boggling that virtually every major outlet in the world reporting the Court of Arbitration for Sport ruling yesterday has failed to mention one of the most important facts of the entire case. Caster Semenya has XY chromosomes. It was generally accepted by people following the case closely that Semenya was XY, but now it’s been confirmed as fact since the CAS press release specifically says, “The DSD covered by the Regulations are limited to athletes with ’46 XY DSD’ – i.e. conditions where the affected individual has XY chromosomes.” If she wasn’t XY, the IAAF’s regulations wouldn’t apply to her and she’d have no reason to challenge them.

(In case you forgot what you learned in junior high biology, typically females have XX chromosomes while males are XY)."
Click to expand...

This. Exactly.
 
JAVMAN83 said:
I'm not shouting. When I want to shout, I'll use ALL CAPS! :)

I use caps only when I want to emphasize a word or phrase, not to yell.

You are correct on the 5nmol/L. The following link indicates normal ranges for males & females as accepted by the parties:

https://www.insidethegames.biz/arti...iaaf-and-caster-semenya-a-conundrum-a-tragedy

Semenya is not the only one with DSD. Niyonsaba also claims to be in the same situation. Both went 1-2 at the 2017 WC's. Neither runs like a true female. Sorry to sound sexist, but don't care. The 5 year old of ccrunner609 nailed it perfectly.
Click to expand...

You used all caps when you said TWICE. I am going back to my first post. I get what the governing body is trying to do, also conflicted because this is not a cut and dry issue. Still have major issues with the limited scope for the ruling. Either it covers all events are none at all imo.
 
A few things:
1. While it seems likely that Caster is an intersex athlete, those findings have not been released, anything else is speculation.
2. This is a tricky issue. It would be really nice to be on the side of protecting women's sports as a protected class without putting yourself on the side of racists and homophobes.
3. If Caster is intersex, it means she was likely born with an androgen insensitivity that means her body didn't develop male genitals in utero (female is the default). Thus, until puberty, there would've been no outward signs that she wasn't a "normal" little girl.
4. It does seem that this ruling targets her specifically or at least a very few individuals rather that addressing the role of intersex athletes in women's athletics.
5. I hope that, going forward, we can find a way to protect women's athletics while also respecting the athletes caught in the middle.
6. There were similar fairness issues brought up when Oscar Pistorius was allowed to race in the Olympics. It wasn't as big of a deal because he didn't make the final, but it might be another issue to watch as technology improves. If there were a few double amputees dominating men's track, there would be a similar debate.
 
Anyone on LetsRun saying that she has XY chromosomes is basing on what people have said. That has not and would not be something disclosed because to do so would be a violation of the IAAF rules, Court of Arbitration for Sport rules, several international treaties and here in United States, our laws. As Seppo Kaitainen said, she is likely intersex. In spite of what some of us may have learned about XX, XY, XXX, XYY, XXY and the other chromosomal variations, gender is in fact a lot more biologically complicated than that. There are many, many developmental factors that influence gender development. And this is absolutely not a simple issue from a scientific point of view. Just ask a human biologist.

There are a lot of biological differences that produce advantages and disadvantages, some with as large or larger effects than the biological advantage Semenya has. The huge focus on her differences are because she was an Olympic champion and because there is a lot of social baggage that goes with it. A lot. If you don't believe that, just read the referenced thread on LetsRun.
 
mathking said:
Anyone on LetsRun saying that she has XY chromosomes is basing on what people have said. That has not and would not be something disclosed because to do so would be a violation of the IAAF rules, Court of Arbitration for Sport rules...
Click to expand...


Since only women with 46 XY DSD are to have their T-levels regulated(per the CAS executive summary), it's fair to assume with relative certainty Semenya is XY
 
Fair enough then. My understanding was that they put the rule in place for all 17 cases that were subsumed over the past three years.
 
The regulatory agencies are creeping into a way of dealing with this issue.

They will take an approach similar to the cycling; define a normal range of biological markers and you must fall within that to compete as a man or woman. If you don't fall within that range you are out, period.

If a biological male wants to compete as a woman THEY must submit documentation of these markers going back 3 years. The testing must be done monthly, otherwise it is the same as taking steroids.
 
mathking said:
Anyone on LetsRun saying that she has XY chromosomes is basing on what people have said. That has not and would not be something disclosed because to do so would be a violation of the IAAF rules, Court of Arbitration for Sport rules, several international treaties and here in United States, our laws. As Seppo Kaitainen said, she is likely intersex. In spite of what some of us may have learned about XX, XY, XXX, XYY, XXY and the other chromosomal variations, gender is in fact a lot more biologically complicated than that. There are many, many developmental factors that influence gender development. And this is absolutely not a simple issue from a scientific point of view. Just ask a human biologist.

There are a lot of biological differences that produce advantages and disadvantages, some with as large or larger effects than the biological advantage Semenya has. The huge focus on her differences are because she was an Olympic champion and because there is a lot of social baggage that goes with it. A lot. If you don't believe that, just read the referenced thread on LetsRun.
Click to expand...

The info on that website is form the owner and operator of the site. I dont think he is just "anyone"
 
Been around too much & seen too much. Even so, I still understand the need to "want to believe." I still have it too.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top